Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kinabaloo]

Have been over in China the last couple of months - very busy - first check-in since mentioned I would be away.

Kurt - yes Resveratrol is very interesting; though I can't be sure about the MAOI link, it would appear correct.

tceight - hope you are still around, your contribution has been very significant.

While Kurt's concerns are valid, the topic still feels pertinent and substantive; a major factor in the 'hook' of cigarettes and surely thereby also the healthier alternative solution.

Will not have time to look through any other threads for now, but wanted to give a message of support to everyone interested in the chemistry and psychopharmacology discussed here and elsewhere.

 

[tescela]

IMHO, these threads are some of the most important on the entire forum. Why have they gone dormant?

 

[tceight]

Hey, I'm still around, checking in once in a while, and working on some stuff on the side when I have time.
will post soon (I hope) to capture my progress, and answer to inquiries directed at me.
Lots of stuff on my plate right now, and most of my free time is being spent researching a serious illness a family member was just diagnosed with that has no effective treatment protocol available (in North America). That trumps this research atm.
Anyone else interested in playing/ picking up the ball?

 

[BCB]

I'm not sure others have the wherewithal to pick up the ball. I barely understand half of what I've been reading here. But I've found it fascinating--easily the best two threads on the forum, so I'm glad tceight and kinabaloo are still checking in. Sorry about the illness, tceight. It certainly trumps this research. But please do return when you get the chance. Thanks for all you've done.

 

[kinabaloo]

I will back from China in about a week and will be a bit more active again from then.

tceight - good to see that you are still around and best wishes regarding the illness and your research into it. I can ask my friends here to look into any eastern insights (kinabaloo at yahoo dot com).

Thanks to BCB and tescela for your support and encouragement

It would be nice als to hear again from exogenesis with respect to particular herbal tea use - and chemistry knowledge plus experimental data.

 

[kinabaloo]

A few further thoughts on MAOIs and smoking/vaping : http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...is-stress-anxiety-depression.html#post2196936

 

[tescela]

Is there a way to set up automatic notification for anytime kinabaloo or tceight posts anything anywhere on the forum?

 

[BCB]

I don't know but I want that feature too! Desperately!

 

[Clinton]

Thanks. I feel even more stupid now.

 

[kinabaloo]

Moved this from another thread as here is more appropriate.

Summary of post: I tend to agree that nicotine alone is not that addictive (yet smoking is known to be fiendishly so) - and that is a primary reason why vaping does not work out for everyone (something that could be addressed).

I often read the newbies experiences because it is very illuminating. And the anecodatal evidence quite strongly suggests that nicotine alone is not very addictive. Once people transfer to vaping (nic only), and have done so for a week or two, many find they can switch to zero nic without a problem (and others still enjoy their nic hit but may well no longer absolutely need it - something of a guess but could easily be tested - by members here or in a larger scale controlled study).

This is why patches and gum have a low efficacy for smoking cessation; quite possibly they work little better than placebo patches / gum would, I'd suggest.

Vaping does much better because it is more like the original habit - hand to mouth and the 'smoke' - plus a nic hit that is more immediate than patches (which are perhaps not supposed to be) and maybe even than gum since the nic is inhaled. This has proven to be (i'd say) sufficiently effective for about half the tryers of vaping (perhaps less because we likely dont hear of many giver uppers - but that might often be accounted for by the trials of the vaping outset - poor tasting carts in the starter sets, getting used to fiddling with battery chargers and loose connections, and generally needing to learn some new ways and knowledge.

However, what does make analog smoking addictive cannot be effectively overcome by present vaping of just nic (even with the hand to mouth and 'smoke'/visible vapor) for some 50% of people (perhaps less). And I think that the something missing (probably MAOIs) is the key - both to the dropout percentage and the addictiveness of the analog (either in itself or, most probably, through combination effects with the nic). The following study, among others, supports the latter point - and by inference the former too):

Monoamine oxidase inhibition dramatically increases the motivation to self-administer nicotine in rats

The key implication is as follows. The reality is that without the opportunity to vape something more than just nic, if desired, there are many who will stick to analogs (and their hundreds of nasties via manufacture processing and, particularly, combustion). Being addicted is bad only in so far as the thing one is addicted to is bad. There is no good reason to think that a nic + MAOI liquid (or even a WTA liquid) for vaping would present any significant adverse health effects; certainly not in comparison with analogs.

~~~

Snus is a solution for some, wh do not need the hand to mouth and 'smoke' so much, but also doesnt appeal to all of those who dont take to vaping because of the something missing.

~~~

If anyone reading this is thinking of giving up on vaping because of the something missing, a suggestion that might help - try passion-flower supplement or passion-flower tea alongside.

 

[tescela]

Moved this from another thread as here is more appropriate.

Summary of post: I tend to agree that nicotine alone is not that addictive (yet smoking is known to be fiendishly so) - and that is a primary reason why vaping does not work out for everyone (something that could be addressed).

I often read the newbies experiences because it is very illuminating. And the anecodatal evidence quite strongly suggests that nicotine alone is not very addictive. Once people transfer to vaping (nic only), and have done so for a week or two, many find they can switch to zero nic without a problem (and others still enjoy their nic hit but may well no longer absolutely need it - something of a guess but could easily be tested - by members here or in a larger scale controlled study).

This is why patches and gum have a low efficacy for smoking cessation; quite possibly they work little better than placebo patches / gum would, I'd suggest.

Vaping does much better because it is more like the original habit - hand to mouth and the 'smoke' - plus a nic hit that is more immediate than patches (which are perhaps not supposed to be) and maybe even than gum since the nic is inhaled. This has proven to be (i'd say) sufficiently effective for about half the tryers of vaping (perhaps less because we likely dont hear of many giver uppers - but that might often be accounted for by the trials of the vaping outset - poor tasting carts in the starter sets, getting used to fiddling with battery chargers and loose connections, and generally needing to learn some new ways and knowledge.

However, what does make analog smoking addictive cannot be effectively overcome by present vaping of just nic (even with the hand to mouth and 'smoke'/visible vapor) for some 50% of people (perhaps less). And I think that the something missing (probably MAOIs) is the key - both to the dropout percentage and the addictiveness of the analog (either in itself or through combination with the nic). The following study, among others, supports the latter point - and by inference the former too):

Monoamine oxidase inhibition dramatically increases the motivation to self-administer nicotine in rats

The key implication is as follows. The reality is that without the opportunity to vape something more than just nic, if desired, there are many who will stick to analogs (and their hundreds of nasties via manufacture processing and, particularly, combustion). Being addicted is bad only in so far as the thing one is addicted to is bad. There is no good reason to think that a nic + MAOI liquid (or even a WTA liquid) for vaping would present any significant adverse health effects; certainly not in comparison with analogs.

~~~

Snus is a solution for some, wh do not need the hand to mouth and 'smoke' so much, but also doesnt appeal to all of those who dont take to vaping because of the something missing.

~~~

If anyone reading this is thinking of giving up on vaping because of the something missing, a suggestion that might help - try passion-flower supplement or tea alongside.

From what I gathered during the discussion last summer, passion flower extract is a dead-end.

The feedback on WTA eLiquid has been positive, but unless has started mass producing and selling WTA eLiquid, then we are no better off than we were six months ago.

We know what is needed, but nothing happens. This is pitiful.

 

[kinabaloo]

From what I gathered during the discussion last summer, passion flower extract is a dead-end.

The feedback on WTA eLiquid has been positive, but unless has started mass producing and selling WTA eLiquid, then we are no better off than we were six months ago.

We know what is needed, but nothing happens. This is pitiful.

The Passion Flower was only a suggestion, and from what I remember, it did help some people. I certainly have no reason to believe it is a 'dead-end'. It is a potentially useful measure given the current situation.

Otherwise, I do of course agree with your sentiments.

"Tobacco use kills approximately 5.4 million people a year – an average of one person every six seconds. 100 million deaths were caused by tobacco in the 20th century. If those trends continued, the World Health Organisation says there would be up to one billion deaths in the 21st century." Tobacco facts: ten things to know about smoking - Telegraph

The research link in an earlier post about the importance of MAOIs in the addictiveness of smoking is over 5 years old. The basic knowledge of MAOIs in tobacco smoke goes back much further still. Avoiding this in the efforts to reduce smoking deaths is negligence on a breath-takingly tragic scale.

The premise of NRT is flawed - nicotine intake is not equiavlent to smoking; far from it, in fact, as the study noted earlier, among others, demonstrates. This is why NRT does little better, if at all, than placebo; this is why NRT is inneffective. The case for WTA is very strong and the moral imperative could hardly be stronger.

 

[tescela]

The Passion Flower was only a suggestion, and from what I remember, it did help some people. I certainly have no reason to believe it is a 'dead-end'. It is a potentially useful measure given the current situation.

You are right, kinabaloo, although maybe it would be helpful to vapers only if they drank it in a tea form. I recall only a handful of people trying adding passion flower extract to their eLiquid and posting about it, but a couple of them may have claimed a benefit. I think one that claimed a benefit said it might be a placebo effect, but didn't want to be disabused of the illusion.

Between the tiny sample size and open-label testing, this is so far removed from the scientific method that it is laughable. That absence of more placebo effect false-positives suggests that passion flower extract as an additive in eLiquid is a non-starter. I would *love* to be wrong, though. One can certainly highlight that different brands and formulations (and even batches, since the manufacturing process consistency is unknown) would have varying levels of the MAOI, so maybe we just haven't found the right brand and formulation.

But then, I firmly believe that WTA is the answer, and it should be in mass production *right now.* Everything else is academically interesting, and may provide insight for further improvements down the line, but should not distract us from implementing the known solution immediately.

Otherwise, I do of course agree with your sentiments.

The research link in an earlier post about the importance of MAOIs in the addictiveness of smoking is over 5 years old. The basic knowledge of MAOIs in tobacco smoke goes back much further still. Avoiding this in the efforts to reduce smoking deaths is negligence on a breath-takingly tragic scale.

The premise of NRT is flawed - nicotine intake is not equiavlent to smoking; far from it, in fact, as the study noted earlier, among others, demonstrates. This is why NRT does little better, if at all, than placebo; this is why NRT is inneffective. The case for WTA is very strong and the moral imperative could hardly be stronger.

I've commented about this or a similar thread, so I apologize in advance if this is a re-hash, but I will quickly point out that I've been aware of the MAOI issue since late 1990's (I've been knee-deep in harm reduction for a long time), and the published science goes back to *at least* the early-to-mid 1990's.

In other words, to second your statement: this situation is willful negligence by the tobacco control community. It is ridiculous that a major manufacturer hasn't yet brought WTA eLiquid to market and thereby forced the prohibitionists back on their heels. But let's leave aside the moral issue for a moment. From a pure business standpoint, this is a goldmine.

And yet nothing happens. This is insanity.

For those that have only recently discovered this in the last year or two, maybe the delay feels ok, but for those of us that have been researching and pioneering harm-reduction products for so many years, this does not feel ok at all. It feels like we are stranded inside "Hotel Rwanda" calling for help via satellite phone to an outside world that insists on turning a blind eye to the ongoing genocide.

 

[BCB]

Although I was aware of the relief cigarettes provided for 46 years, I only learned about the MAOI connection through these threads on ECF in the past 9 months. Finding out that it has been known for decades and no one has followed up on it forces me to agree with you guys that this really is insanity. There's gold in them there hills! Perhaps the spread of e-cigs worldwide and the attention they've garnered will be the kick needed to get it going now that many consumers have the device to deliver it. Maybe everyone's waiting to see how the legal aspects shake out before they pursue it? That could take more decades....

 

[VaporMadness]

What do you guys think of the CigRx stuff? Does it have "what's missing"?

 

[tescela]

What do you guys think of the CigRx stuff? Does it have "what's missing"?

Good question, VaporMadness. Unless I'm missing a thread somewhere, this is something that hasn't been investigated and discussed anywhere near as much as I expected when it went on the market.

So far, I've seen comments that it is very useful to at least one person. I don't recall much beyond that. Can somebody else here chime in?

 

[tceight]

I THINK I finally figured out what HMWTA is. Home-made WTA? Anyway I'm wondering if the stuff you made gives you the benefits we used to get from cigarettes, that kind of feel-good "ahhh" now that you've had more time to use it? Does it really work?

Hi BCB. yes, what better acronym than homemade WTA.
I've been using it now for months, both the original extraction, and various 'experimental' extractions in an attempt to simplify the procedure. All of them have shown efficacy in satiation far exceeding that of nicotine alone.
For me, it really is an entirely different experience. Identical to analogues? No. but that's not entirely bad either. If I had to compare the effects to an existing style of analogue, it would be more like smoking a cigar. With nic alone, I would at times of stress, find myself frenetically puffing away trying to get that feeling of satiation. With the WTA, I take a couple of puffs, and feel a sense of calm. A couple more, and I'm good. If i keep going, I get a dull throbbing 'headache', and zero desire to continue. If it was a cigarette, I found I would finish it rather than waste it, but with the E-cig, I put it away. I've found that my juice consumption has reduced to less than 30% of what it was with straight nic.
other observations... I don't seem to get the same stimulating effect that I did with nic juice (or analogues for that matter)
I'm wondering if maybe the alkaloid absorption profile is different, either because of the method of delivery, or, possibly the extraction method favors the maoi's over the nicotine. I'll need to do DVAP's extraction at least once to compare.

 

[tceight]

Careful, however, in making sure mineral oil is completely in soluble in PG, VG or water. ....... Even alkanes have a very small solubility in water, and PG or VG will be somewhat similar.

yes, this could be a concern, within reason. Nothing is completely insoluble in anything, and I'd bet there are alkanes in the tobacco from processing.
I think I remember reading that alkanes < C10 are less than 200ppb in H2O at STP. (longer chains even less) In the PG or VG, it may be even less soluble due to the SG, or may be higher due to mechanical absorbtion. I don't know of any way to tell with absolute certainty. I do know that when i extract them, if you tilt it to the light, the tiniest bit of mineral oil will form very defined circles floating on the top. I leave it sitting for a day to allow the fullest possible separation, and 'waste' a bit of product to ensure I don't carry any oil over.

The problem I see with concentrating alkaloids, or worse just trying to obtain and vape alkaloids like this, is that the amounts required may be quite small,

I see this problem as a potential advantage. Vaping has not been demonstrated as 'harmless', so it would be logical that less is better. My consumption has reduced drastically with the WTA, so there is less of everything else into my system. A few puffs, and I put it away. The only negative side effect I have experienced thus far, is a throbbing headache if I over do it.

Additionally, in terms of your extraction, color does not mean alkaloids.

no, obviously not, as the oil is still very dark when I am finished. The colour though, does indicate that it is dissolving 'something', and even if the solubilities of the colouring agents and the alkaloids are quite different, their ratio's should remain consistent over time, and can thereby be used as an indicator of 'sufficiency'.

overall though, efficiency is not my concern in this, just efficacy.
Thanks for the thoughts and insight's Kurt.

 

[tceight]

Maybe everyone's waiting to see how the legal aspects shake out before they pursue it? That could take more decades....

or never. While I would like to believe otherwise, I can't see it ever happening, at least not in North America.
Initially, it may have worked... back when smoking was just being pushed outside of workplaces, and bars to protect others, and was seen as a 'disgusting habit'. Due to the push back at the time, the anti smoking lobby has carefully orchestrated the vilification of smoking, and everything that goes along with it, so that the problem now isn't the smoke, it's the smoker.
Do you think that there will be a next generation of 'vapers'? and if not, where is the profit?

 

[tceight]

Kin, tried to PM you, but your box is full.