ended with
I washed with 1/2 volume twice. you can see how much clearer the second wash water is.
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ended with
I washed with 1/2 volume twice. you can see how much clearer the second wash water is.
Hey, I know that look... lol.
come to think of it, my kids know that look too.
Is that where the saying, "if you haven't got anything nice to say, then just slap your face" comes from?
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I really thought I was on to something with the "reverse interface". beautiful clear oil kept coming over the top, but then the water finally broke through and half the oil was still missing.
In my mind... not worth the hassle, especially as it seems a good solvent.
Just double up the oil, get half back, and be happy.
hotwire: I think maybe you are confusing two different methods. The method kina is referring to uses very little water and extraction into oil first. virks method uses more water and involves only extraction into water.
kina: I think others may miss the first part of extraction into oil because it is so far back (start of thread, right?). Would be nice to see a complete, finished recipe all in one post now.
Also. PLEASE, someone name the (oil extraction) method. How about dvapkineightlopes or dkes or deks or keds or ecf-wta. I'm sure someone can come up with a cool, creative name or a serious, descriptive one
Also. If an aqueous, acidic soln of wta is neutralized say by adding sodium carbonate solution, will not the wta separate out as an oil phase which could then, theoretically, be recovered in a nearly pure form or in a small amount of oil??
The 'simple soak' as I call it is not really a WTA, just WT, so perhaps the 'Simple Soak WT' method.
The tceight method is the 'Simple WTA' method. (Which works better with whole tobacco rather than powder
)DVaps' method is 'Lab WTA' method; one should really call it a procedure or protocol
how about acid/base extraction. That's what they've been calling it for 100years.
this particular rendition, I like "kitchen WTA".... the title kind of forces keeping within the safety protocols.
This is entirely possible, (not as written) but unnecessary, and incredibly dangerous.
Summary of Experimental Simple WTA Method (after tceight; with invaluable help from DVap and ideas and feedback from many others, including slopes).
Makes 25ml of ~16mg/ml WTA.
I needed :
* 40g tobacco ('medium pouch' / 40 superking cigarettes), or snus or snuff.
* Light mineral oil (pure, pharma grade)
* Distilled water (or de-ionised water)
* Pure citric acid powder (normally comes in 50g or 100g tubs)
* Pharma grade calcium hydroxide or calcium carbonate. Crush to a fine powder.
* Sodium bicarbonate ('baking soda' or 'bicarbonate of soda') (not 'baking powder'). A 100g tub will be sufficient.
I heated the bicarbonate in an oven at 250C for 1/2 hour to convert it to sodium carbonate. Creating my carbonate this way ensured that the carbonate is food grade.
Create a sulution of this in 20ml of distilled water, until no more will dissolve after vigorous stirring.
Step 1: I added the carbonate solution to the tabacco until all the tobacco was wet, but without having excess (free-running) liquid. Then added a similar amount of mineral oil. Also added some carbonate powder (about 1 tablespoon).
Mixed and gently mashed this mix for about 20 minutes or so. Then leave for a further hour.
Step 2: Squeezed out the mush, through a cloth filter (pre-dampened with distilled water) to retain solids. [I used a garlic press for this]. Allowed the liquid to separate in a narrow transparent container. Kept the top oil layer and threw away bottom layer. A syringe was handy for this. Didn't want to take any of the bottom layer so I had to leave behind a little bit of the oil.
Step 3: Prepared the acidified water.
I dissolved 25g of citric acid in 100ml distilled water.
5ml of acidified water is required so I measured out 5ml, added this to the oil and shook well five times with 10 minute intervals.
One last shake up. After the last shake leave to separate fully (for at least 12 hours; it might take longer - wait for the water layer to clear / no further changes visible). If used snus or snuff it takes much longer, maybe even 2 days or more.
This time, I retained the bottom water layer and threw away the top oil layer.
Step 4: Added a little calcium hydroxide or calcium carbonate powder (about 1/2 teaspoon) and shake up several times. This will neutralise the remaining citric acid, producing the insoluble tri-calcium citrate and water. Filter through a coffe filter paper pre-dampened with distilled water.
Step 5: Then I added 20ml of VG. This is the final WTA e-liquid.
Finally : I could then consider blending this WTA with normal e-liquid. For example, 1 part WTA to 2 parts normal (nicotine-only) e-liquid. If one has not smoked for a while and does not use snus, even less WTA might be needed. Everyone is different. I might well try it as it is first, then decide whether to blend it and in what proportion.
NOTE !
WTA is not advised for people who are happy vaping nicotine only e-liquid and should only be considered by those who are at risk of returning to smoking. Even then it might be a better idea to try snus or snuff first.
Furthermore, the method cannot guarantee that only alkaloids will exist in the end-product. Nor can it be said that the alkaloids are themselves harmless. There might also be a small amount of other substances from the tobacco carried over, It is also possible a trace amount of mineral oil will exist in the final product.
We do this at our own risk, and the risk is non-zero. If an individual is uncomfortable with the procedure or is not willing to accept full personal responsibility for following the procedure along with full personal responsibility for any side-effect either known, suspected, or unanticipated, then the individual should not attempt the procedure.
The method should be carried out with care and all equipment cleaned thorughly after use. E-liquids should always be stored securely.
~~~
Purpose :
To extract all the alkaloids - hence the name Whole Tobacco Alkaloids, or WTA - (and, more or less. nothing more) as a far safer alternative to smoking that tobacco, It leaves behind the tar, probably most of the TSNAs and other harmful toxins. And because the WTA is not combusted, no monoxide or other combustion products also.
=====
I might update to 4ml of 33g per 100ml citric solution, though 4ml is quite a small volume to separate.
Any typos, missed or confusing steps, etc, let me know.
I will try to keep this up-to-date.
? Include a distilled water wash of the oil after separation from the carbonate solution ?
Makes 25ml of ~16mg/ml WTA.
I needed :
* 40g tobacco ('medium pouch' / 40 superking cigarettes), or snus or snuff.
* Light mineral oil (pure, pharma grade)
* Distilled water (or de-ionised water)
* Pure citric acid powder (normally comes in 50g or 100g tubs)
* Pharma grade calcium hydroxide or calcium carbonate. Crush to a fine powder.
* Sodium bicarbonate ('baking soda' or 'bicarbonate of soda') (not 'baking powder'). A 100g tub will be sufficient.
I heated the bicarbonate in an oven at 250C for 1/2 hour to convert it to sodium carbonate. Creating my carbonate this way ensured that the carbonate is food grade.
Create a sulution of this in 20ml of distilled water, until no more will dissolve after vigorous stirring.
Step 1: I added the carbonate solution to the tabacco until all the tobacco was wet, but without having excess (free-running) liquid. Then added a similar amount of mineral oil. Also added some carbonate powder (about 1 tablespoon).
Mixed and gently mashed this mix for about 20 minutes or so. Then leave for a further hour.
Step 2: Squeezed out the mush, through a cloth filter (pre-dampened with distilled water) to retain solids. [I used a garlic press for this]. Allowed the liquid to separate in a narrow transparent container. Kept the top oil layer and threw away bottom layer. A syringe was handy for this. Didn't want to take any of the bottom layer so I had to leave behind a little bit of the oil.
Step 3: Prepared the acidified water.
I dissolved 25g of citric acid in 100ml distilled water.
5ml of acidified water is required so I measured out 5ml, added this to the oil and shook well five times with 10 minute intervals.
One last shake up. After the last shake leave to separate fully (for at least 12 hours; it might take longer - wait for the water layer to clear / no further changes visible). If used snus or snuff it takes much longer, maybe even 2 days or more.
This time, I retained the bottom water layer and threw away the top oil layer.
Step 4: Added a little calcium hydroxide or calcium carbonate powder (about 1/2 teaspoon) and shake up several times. This will neutralise the remaining citric acid, producing the insoluble tri-calcium citrate and water. Filter through a coffe filter paper pre-dampened with distilled water.
Step 5: Then I added 20ml of VG. This is the final WTA e-liquid.
Finally : I could then consider blending this WTA with normal e-liquid. For example, 1 part WTA to 2 parts normal (nicotine-only) e-liquid. If one has not smoked for a while and does not use snus, even less WTA might be needed. Everyone is different. I might well try it as it is first, then decide whether to blend it and in what proportion.
NOTE !
WTA is not advised for people who are happy vaping nicotine only e-liquid and should only be considered by those who are at risk of returning to smoking. Even then it might be a better idea to try snus or snuff first.
Furthermore, the method cannot guarantee that only alkaloids will exist in the end-product. Nor can it be said that the alkaloids are themselves harmless. There might also be a small amount of other substances from the tobacco carried over, It is also possible a trace amount of mineral oil will exist in the final product.
We do this at our own risk, and the risk is non-zero. If an individual is uncomfortable with the procedure or is not willing to accept full personal responsibility for following the procedure along with full personal responsibility for any side-effect either known, suspected, or unanticipated, then the individual should not attempt the procedure.
The method should be carried out with care and all equipment cleaned thorughly after use. E-liquids should always be stored securely.
~~~
Purpose :
To extract all the alkaloids - hence the name Whole Tobacco Alkaloids, or WTA - (and, more or less. nothing more) as a far safer alternative to smoking that tobacco, It leaves behind the tar, probably most of the TSNAs and other harmful toxins. And because the WTA is not combusted, no monoxide or other combustion products also.
=====
I might update to 4ml of 33g per 100ml citric solution, though 4ml is quite a small volume to separate.
Any typos, missed or confusing steps, etc, let me know.
I will try to keep this up-to-date.
? Include a distilled water wash of the oil after separation from the carbonate solution ?
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But is this not essentially what linzeljp did (although maybe unwittingly and without follow up):
"Dumped some baking soda on the cookie sheet, popped it in the oven on "broil" for a while. Watched an episode of "Red Dwarf". Turn off oven, pulled out cookie sheet. Got about a cup of hot water from the tap, put in french press. Added sodium carbonate (the heat-decomposed baking soda) until it stopped dissolving. Added tobacco until I had a soggy mush. Watched another episode of "Red Dwarf". Pressed the tobacco mush to squeeze out the water. Poured in some olive oil, agitated it a bit with the screen. Gave it one final squeeze to get all the good bits out of the tobacco and poured off the resulting sludge into the see-through plastic cup. In the other cup, a little hot water and a handful of vitamin c tablets. Let them dissolve a bit, then poured off into another cup through a coffee filter. Watched another episode of "Red Dwarf". By this time, the sludge had separated out into yellow, translucent oil and dark brown water. Sucked up about 50ml of oil into the flavor injector, followed by the acidified vitamin c water, about 20ml. Shook it up. Marveled as it transformed from clear to a dark, coppery brown. Inverted it, watched another episode of "Red Dwarf", then squeezed off the oil into the sink. Put a little sodium carbonate in another cup, squeezed out the water into the cup, mixed it up, then sucked it back up. Mixed the result at about 1:4 into some 70/30 pg/vg blend (lime and menthol) and vaped."
I wonder why he did the final sodium carb addition and assumed he did it to neutralize excess acid. Made my think of what i said.
Anyway, the only reason i could think of to do something along these lines is to eliminate the water in the final mix. But, like you said, to dangerous and not necessary. Really just a response to something DVap said a while back.
yes, what he did was to neutralize the acid, and yes, this would move the alkaloids to a 'freebase' state.
nothing wrong with this. In fact, if you look at the 'original recipe', this was the last step, to neutralize it.
it's not whether the nic. is a salt or freebase that makes it so deadly, it's the concentration, period.
so, if you attempt to concentrate by removing too much water, or by eliminating oil, then we move into territory where it's not a matter of if, but when, someone overdoses.
even with this simple extraction, the possibility of too high concentrations exists.
don't forget to take your credits too Kin. Without this thread, simple WTA would not have been born. (at least not by me!, only a matter of time before someone somewhere did it.... because damn it... it's just so GOOOOD!!!)
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Great piece of work kinabaloo puting it all together from bits and pieces of others experiments!!!
Really something to see it all distilled down to a few paragraphs in a proceedure that almost anyone can do. I would expect that lots of vapers will begin to try it for themselves now.
Really something to see it all distilled down to a few paragraphs in a proceedure that almost anyone can do. I would expect that lots of vapers will begin to try it for themselves now.
Was just considering that the oil/sodium carbonate extraction I did with 17g of tobacco used a large excess of oil (200mL) and was allowed to sit for a day with occasional stirring and heating in a bath of near boiling water. It was at this point where I switched gears and changed to a lab procedure for purification, isolation, and quantitation of alkaloids. This excess of oil doesn't really duplicate the extraction conditions when using a minimum of oil, so there is some uncertainty whether the oil method, as written, will approach a 100% recovery relative to a lab procedure. The "penalty" is unknown but, hopefully, small. I would have to duplicate the oil extraction, as written, and then switch to a purification and isolation to nail it down with certainty. Not on my schedule to do this, so will accept that the difference might be minor enough to discount.
.
Very nice. Anything that basic water will pull out of oil won't end up in the acidic water.
don't forget to take your credits too Kin. Without this thread, simple WTA would not have been born. (at least not by me!, only a matter of time before someone somewhere did it.... because damn it... it's just so GOOOOD!!!)
I'm just the 'runner', armchair version
Edited it about 100 times already !
It's getting the balance between all the things one could say and might be useful, and it becoming too off-putting in detail. Leaving out all DVap's calculations helped a lot
I'm condfident all the alkaloids are out of the tobacco in an hour or so. Ok, virtually all. Not so sure how long the migration into the oil takes (though one would think it would be very fast is the emulsion is well mixed.
The theory says the acid stage should work very well too, but as you say it is not actually measured yet.
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