Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kinabaloo]

Im not really for this idea

WTA provides the alkaloids that one would get from smoking, so it is the ideal solution. It does not involve guessing at what would be best from a biochemical understanding that is not complete (though we do know some things).

WTA is most likely a better solution than just-nicotine because by keeping to the tried and tested formula (of tobacco) we avoid any chance of (some) people reacting differently when switching to just-nic, such as by taking in more nic in an attempt to get the 'something missing'.

The alkaloid profile of WTA vapor will be closely similar to tobacco smoke. And being more satiating also likely leads to reduced consumption vs just-nic.

While in theory constructing a vaping liquid from a reduced set of known constituents makes good sense, this is for the future. POtentially could improve the vaping experience but at present the point of vaping is as a smoking replacement and going beyond that would draw angry fire from many in society.

(I doubt it would be possible to enhance the experiential effects of WTA much without getting into unwanted territory - if the effects are more than slight could be unbalancing for say depressives or people on medications or might cause drowsiness or other effect beyond the slight improved calmness and focus that is well-known and pretty much undisputed effect of tobacco/WTA.

The potential to leave out certain alkaloids that might be less than ideal healthwise would be more an attraction. But this would be nitpicking; the key thing is to avoid the dangers of smoking with its combustion products.)

Using only the 'important' chemicals can have unforeseen consequences (consider the B-group vitamins or vit E family, for example from nutrition). Might well not be at all serious but it is possible; after all, that's the problem with 'just-nic'. For now we have a very good solution in WTA.

 

[NanoVapor]

What major ethical issues?

The fact that people would be developing a more addictive product and theres an almost endless number of people who instantly oppose anything that fulfillls our hedonist pursuits. I mean even candy flavored e-liquids are too pro-hedonist for alot of "concerned parents" out there, could you imagine the outrage over something that was even more addictive than a cigarette yet had little of the negative effects associated with it?? That would enrage those kinds of people far worse than if it was more addictive but twice as lethal as cigarettes, why, because anything that feels good must be wrong (yet nature gives us the ability for certain things to feel good...), and its alot harder for them to spin a hedonist pursuit to the general masses as being wrong if theres little to no negative consequence for doing it (but rest assured they WILL still try, they'll compensate by getting twice as loud and twice as hostile).


I think if MAOI's do start getting pumped out into e-liquids (wether naturally sourced/replicated or not), it will be far more detrimental to the e-cig legality movement than beneficial. The argument used would be "theyre trying to make these things more addictive!!", and the masses would listen without wanting to hear "no were just making them AS addictive as cigarettes" (not that-that rebuttle would satisfy anyone). Its virtually impossible to explain to people that close minded that addiction is how we are programmed, if we do something that impacts our dopamine levels we want to continue to do it, this is the decision of nature not the decision of the individual person, we are all coded this way and we are all addicts to dopamine reinforced behaviors.


Im curious to keep an eye on this thread though. Im all for it, but I still stand by the idea that it will do more harm than good to the acceptance of e-cigs by the everyday individual.

 

[kinabaloo]

The 'addiction' is only bad in so far as it involves an activity/product that is harmful (such as combustion of tobacco).

With vaping, much like say eating fruit, there is a mix of harm and benefit and really nothing to legislate for; a matter of individual choice surely.

To have an effective alternative to smoking is the point. Smoking was never just about nicotine, just as a carrot was never just about beta-carotene - that assertion was fundamentally flawed from the outset.

AS long as we stick to extraction for composition we will be safe from 'new drug' claims, if sense prevails.

 

[tescela]

after being tired of concentrating today and needing a cigarette but having already smoked a pack, i tried a General Mini Mint with also a CigRX under my tongue, i was kinda high in a "relax and let the world go by" state which was great as i was walking to relieve stress at the time but would be useless to try and get any work done in that state. coming down from it was mildly unpleasant


CigRx contains two dietary ingredients: yerba mate (mah-TAY) and anatabine (an-AT-a-been).

James

James, what has been your experience with using Cigrx by itself? (The more detail, the better...) Have you already posted somewhere about this?

 

[jamesam1243]

i use it when i am walking because if i vape while walking i hurt my neck,
CigRX works to calm me somewhat (i don't pace so fast),
but when i am sitting it gives me nothing to fiddle with so i prefer to vape then.

i have been pretty busy lately because vaping and using snus (much stronger) tends to give my neuropathy (dead nerves) in my legs and feet and i get scared about losing then to gangrene. nicotine has that effect when one is diabetic like me.

James

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

To have an effective alternative to smoking is the point. Smoking was never just about nicotine, just as a carrot was never just about beta-carotene - that assertion was fundamentally flawed from the outset.

AS long as we stick to extraction for composition we will be safe from 'new drug' claims, if sense prevails.

Well said, kin . NanoVapor, Ol' Doc Dvap's WTA in my PV was my eye-opener. If it hadn't been for that, I'd have gone back to smokes. There's so much more to a cigarette than just the nicotine or a habit, and there are many here using regular eliquid who either can't give up smokes or end up going back to smoking full force and leave the forum. We're all here because we wanted an alternative, but it needs to be an effective one to be a successful one. Unfortunately, regular eliquids work for some folks, but not all. These guys are pioneering ways to help the masses. We can worry about the Nazi's later .

 

[tceight]

This looks very intriguing, but exactly what kind of oil are you using?

mineral oil, from the drug store.
It's used as a laxative, as baby oil, and in the kitchen used for sealing wooden cutting boards and lubricating knives etc.
I wouldn't use baby oil, as it often has perfumes added.
while it's also used sometimes in theatrical fog machines, it's important to note
DO NOT VAPE IT!
In large doses, it could cause lipoid pneumonia, as is the case with ANY oil.

here is a toxicological evaluation of food grade mineral oil by the WHO.
206. Food-grade mineral oil (FAO Nutrition Meetings Report Series 48a)

in this extraction, its only an intermediate carrier and is immiscible with PG, glycerine, alcohol, water and PEG.
'light' mineral oil has an SG of 0.85, and the 'heavy' mineral oil is 0.88, so separation from PG and Glycerine (1.04 and 1.26) happens quickly.

 

[tceight]

nanovaper, I've had similar thoughts/concerns as you, so know where you are coming from.
"I do not see why you would want to copy tobacco MAOI's, when if your going to put that much effort into it, you could just IMPROVE upon the MAOI system found in tobacco"
fantastic idea, and I like the reasoning with the -B only,
In the end it would be wonderful (maybe) to get just the specific molecules we want, but this is outside my abilities, so I do what I can. Maybe you can try grinding some selegiline into your vape and let us know how it works for you.
That approach is like "enriched white bread" the alternative being tried here is to create whole grain bread. Sure there may be some stuff in there we don't want... or not (what's that darned fiber and all them minerals really good for anyway?)

as for the FDA or people getting snitty about added maoi's, all the more reason to make this a simple home based system.
As I see it, vaping will become 'illegal' if the powers that be decide there is no money in it, or it is costing potential profit. If some commercial interest adds WTA, and it becomes a direct 'tobacco replacement', then expect it to be supported and taxed heavily as a 'luxury good', under control of the ATF for quality control purposes.
The people will scream and shout what they are told to scream and shout about. None of this will have anything to do with what does or does not make sense from a health point of view.
just my two cents. take it or leave it, information is neither good nor bad, use it as you see fit.
P.S. just a thought about home made wta, as it relates to alcohol... it's legal to make wine.. but illegal to 'concentrate' that wine via distillation at home. does that make sense? it doesn't have to.

 

[bearscreek]

Yeah, it finally hit me about the laxative kind. I knew you wouldn't be using baby oil (or at least I hoped you weren't), so I actually looked online at Walgreen's to see what kind might be sold without all the frills. I really meant to pick some up already and didn't get around to it. I've been rolling cigs for a friend using pipe tobacco, so I'm maybe gonna just use some of that, even though it's menthol. (Vaping makes her cough, but at least I'm able to save her some money this way.)

 

[tceight]

i use it when i am walking because if i vape while walking i hurt my neck,
CigRX works to calm me somewhat (i don't pace so fast),
but when i am sitting it gives me nothing to fiddle with so i prefer to vape then.

i have been pretty busy lately because vaping and using snus (much stronger) tends to give my neuropathy (dead nerves) in my legs and feet and i get scared about losing then to gangrene. nicotine has that effect when one is diabetic like me.

James

James, I'm one to 'vape like mad' on straight nic, and while I don't have diabetes, I can feel the effects of vasoconstriction from too much nic. Wired, and unsatisfied.
Does your CigRX package come with a monograph in it? I'm particularly interested in mg per pill of active components, and what the inert carrier materials might be. I will assume Star created their profile of maoi's to closely match that of tobacco, without the nic. If so, then we may be able to simply dissolve a cigrx pill in the correct amount of nic-juice to more accurately mimic the effects of smoking, including the immediate 'self titration' preventing that 'overhigh' feeling you got.

Twisted Victor,
Thanks for the "thumbs up!".

 

[BCB]

Would you like to marry me tceight?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Twisted Victor,
Thanks for the "thumbs up!".

I got yer back, buddy . All I can really do is watch in fascination but I'm long on moral support. During the original run of http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/44958-so-we-getting-we-not-nicotine.html, I think the arguments and possibilities got hit from every angle concerning the ramifications of WTA production. A home brew recipe is the only for sure method, but there were a lot of bugs in figuring a safe way for professional non-chemists, like myself, to do it without going blind or burning down the house. And I'm almost understanding what you're doing (did I just hear Dvap laugh??). Carry on .

 

[tceight]

Would you like to marry me tceight?

can we just shack up for a while, and see how fantastically mind blowing the sex is first? ;-)

 

[BCB]

OK. That works for me.

 

[tceight]

I got yer back, buddy . All I can really do is watch in fascination but I'm long on moral support. During the original run of http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/44958-so-we-getting-we-not-nicotine.html, I think the arguments and possibilities got hit from every angle concerning the ramifications of WTA production. A home brew recipe is the only for sure method, but there were a lot of bugs in figuring a safe way for professional non-chemists, like myself, to do it without going blind or burning down the house. And I'm almost understanding what you're doing (did I just hear Dvap laugh??). Carry on .

not having a clue what I am doing has never stopped me before!
I'm slowly figuring out what I need to know, DVAP has been kind enough to offer me some tutelage on the mysterious ways of magical brews.
I'm now surprised that it worked as well as it did, because with what I have learned, the bumble bee can't fly (numbers don't add up well). I'm working on some modifications on the method that should make it easier and more efficient at the same time. I just wish I had more time to spend on this project.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

The key components I recall are a bubbling cauldron and maniacal laughter, along with the occasional FDA rant and middle finger. Hope that helps.

 

[tceight]

The key components I recall are a bubbling cauldron and maniacal laughter, along with the occasional FDA rant and middle finger. Hope that helps.

oh it's the middle finger I was supposed to use. That makes things more comfortable.
Can I use a 'Health Canada' rant instead if I am doubly maniacal??

TV, can you give me a synopsis on your experience with WTA regarding speed of onset?
My experience has led me to question the validity of the assumption that e-cig vapor is absorbed primarily transmucosal in the mouth and throat.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

To make it most informative, click on my avatar and when you're on my page click on my "user notes"....or click here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/usernote.php?u=17848, (less hassle). The first note has highlight links of the WTA search as well as links to all the tester reviews. olderthandirt's and my review were originally posted anonymously through Dvap, but he posted them in the original unedited form he received. I didn't have a "moment". It was a slow progression, but once it kicked in it was easily maintained. You'll see in my review that I was in pretty bad shape at the time.

 

[tceight]

To make it most informative, click on my avatar and when you're on my page click on my "user notes"....or click here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/usernote.php?u=17848, (less hassle). The first note has highlight links of the WTA search as well as links to all the tester reviews. olderthandirt's and my review were originally posted anonymously through Dvap, but he posted them in the original unedited form he received. I didn't have a "moment". It was a slow progression, but once it kicked in it was easily maintained. You'll see in my review that I was in pretty bad shape at the time.

Thanks TV, I believe I have read most of those, but I am looking specifically for your subjective opinion of rate of onset, not total 'effect', and that isn't mentioned.
You know when you have an analogue, it hits you physically almost immediately in the chest, and then in a few seconds you get the brain effects, either alertness, clarity whatever.
with a PV, you don't get the immediate physical effect, and the brain effect takes a couple of minutes of vaping.
I notice with the WTA, that the brain effect occurs in a few seconds... was wondering if you noticed that, or it's just me being overly introspective.

 

[bearscreek]

TC, are you still getting a markedly different effect and are you pretty sure it's not placebo? (just checking)