Status
Not open for further replies.

tceight

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 11, 2010
315
12
Ontario, Canada
Good question, VaporMadness. Unless I'm missing a thread somewhere, this is something that hasn't been investigated and discussed anywhere near as much as I expected when it went on the market.

So far, I've seen comments that it is very useful to at least one person. I don't recall much beyond that. Can somebody else here chime in?
in this thread, back around post440 I was looking for info and found the research that Star did for Cig-RX. This is the patent by Regent Court Technologies, that describes the MOA-A and B inhibition in vitro of various tobacco alkaloids, and Yerba Mate as well.

Monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitors and uses thereof
Other than Jamesam, I haven't seen much here on ECF about user experiences, or any other research in vivo.
 
Last edited:

BCB

Super Member
ECF Veteran
So glad to hear from you tceight! Hope things are better on the home front. Regarding CigRx, all I could find was two threads:
tobacco alkaloid pill? and CigRX Launch and it seems like I remember Katya trying it out. Can't figure out how to link them and can't re-read them today due to snow shoveling priorities.

Maybe completely ignoring the potential of MAOI's or a pharmaceutical version of WTA's really is a conspiracy (the whole "follow the money" mantra. Because it sounds like it can be made relatively cheaply and based on testimony from tceight and Dvap and his helpers it really works. It's the calming I miss from cigarettes I think. I feel like this sentence was stolen from my own experience: "With nic alone, I would at times of stress, find myself frenetically puffing away trying to get that feeling of satiation."
 
A report from the end of 2009

"MAOIs artificially increase levels of the neuromediator serotonin, which causes the desensitizing of one of its receptors, 5-HT1A. This receptor protects the neurons that produce serotonin from the effect of the nicotine. Therefore, MAOIs allow nicotine to demonstrate its addictive power, whereas neither nicotine nor MAOIs have addictive effects on their own."
 

tescela

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 28, 2009
536
5
A report from the end of 2009

"MAOIs artificially increase levels of the neuromediator serotonin, which causes the desensitizing of one of its receptors, 5-HT1A. This receptor protects the neurons that produce serotonin from the effect of the nicotine. Therefore, MAOIs allow nicotine to demonstrate its addictive power, whereas neither nicotine nor MAOIs have addictive effects on their own."

Thanks for the link, kinabaloo! That article delivered a lot of information -- with serious implications -- in a concise and easy-to-understand form. Everyone following this thread might want to strongly consider reading the entire article.

Here's another quote from the report. This seems like something we should all think about and discuss...

"If you consider that substitution therapies are the most effective for humans then yes, it must be hoped that our discovery will allow better targeted, and thus more effective, treatments to be perfected. However, therapeutic strategies are still under debate by clinicians, tobaccologists and psychologists, and we do not believe we can settle this question. The best thing would be to find out how to reverse the long-term neuronal adaptations brought on by taking the drug repeatedly, without necessarily trying to maintain the imbalance with a substitution strategy. But we are not there yet. Until now, we have succeeded in blocking dependence in animals but everything suggests that once established, it is irreversible."
 
Thanks for the link, kinabaloo! That article delivered a lot of information -- with serious implications -- in a concise and easy-to-understand form. Everyone following this thread might want to strongly consider reading the entire article.

Here's another quote from the report. This seems like something we should all think about and discuss...

"If you consider that substitution therapies are the most effective for humans then yes, it must be hoped that our discovery will allow better targeted, and thus more effective, treatments to be perfected. However, therapeutic strategies are still under debate by clinicians, tobaccologists and psychologists, and we do not believe we can settle this question. The best thing would be to find out how to reverse the long-term neuronal adaptations brought on by taking the drug repeatedly, without necessarily trying to maintain the imbalance with a substitution strategy. But we are not there yet. Until now, we have succeeded in blocking dependence in animals but everything suggests that once established, it is irreversible."

I am suspicious of the drug approach which is where this report would like to head. There are no (or very few) magic bullets in pharmacology and doubtless any blocking drug will have side-effects. This is particularly true of long-term use as is being suggested would be necessary (BP gold mine). BP is driven by profit not by health concerns. Plus, the idea is an oversimplification anyway and doing this one thing (blocking that receptor site) is not likely to work well.

Personally I feel that the changes probably are reversible but the rebalacing and desensitisation might take a long time - perhaps a year or more. But as there is no evdence that I know of that this changed state is harmful, it is not particularly a worry. Safer substitution I think is the best approach; and the nature of vaping is such that if one wants to wean off nicotine, or WTA, one can easily arrange to do so by cutting one's dosage while the behaviour follows the same pattern (or perhaps also diminishes). It is not the 'addiction' per se that is harmful, but the form it takes when that form is analog combustion.
 
Last edited:

Max0819

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 25, 2010
127
48
Seattle
+1

I work in field service and there are times when a machine, that books out at over $700/min, and the manufacturer, dealer, customer, mechanics, electricians, welders, operators and then some, are looking at you with daggers in their eyes, questioning all the knowledge and ability you have built up with over 8 years of education, 35 years of direct customer service, and the fact that you designed it, with one simple question - Whats wrong?

I'd step outside the group, have a smoke, clarity would arrive, 5min, back inside and explain what is wrong, how long it will take and cheers in the crowd. An e-smoke just does not have this ability. One or two deep drags on that tobacoo stik and the magic begins.

As you might guess, I am still stuck on a few cigs a day, averaged. Some days zero.

I certainly think there is some strong politics keeping us from having some MAOI's added to our nic. I for one, would pay even more than the price of tobacco, just for that feature.

Sorry for the rant.

Back in the forums for one day and still angry about the same thing. lol :D

Max

... "With nic alone, I would at times of stress, find myself frenetically puffing away trying to get that feeling of satiation."...
 
+1

I work in field service and there are times when a machine, that books out at over $700/min, and the manufacturer, dealer, customer, mechanics, electricians, welders, operators and then some, are looking at you with daggers in their eyes, questioning all the knowledge and ability you have built up with over 8 years of education, 35 years of direct customer service, and the fact that you designed it, with one simple question - Whats wrong?

I'd step outside the group, have a smoke, clarity would arrive, 5min, back inside and explain what is wrong, how long it will take and cheers in the crowd. An e-smoke just does not have this ability. One or two deep drags on that tobacoo stik and the magic begins.

As you might guess, I am still stuck on a few cigs a day, averaged. Some days zero.

I certainly think there is some strong politics keeping us from having some MAOI's added to our nic. I for one, would pay even more than the price of tobacco, just for that feature.

Sorry for the rant.

Back in the forums for one day and still angry about the same thing. lol :D

Max

As WTA would also be a 'tobacco product' like nicotine-only liquid, it's not really a big step. Just waiting, hoping somebody is about to make it ...
 

tceight

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 11, 2010
315
12
Ontario, Canada
Personally I feel that the changes probably are reversible but the rebalacing and desensitisation might take a long time - perhaps a year or more.
Hi kin. Had a report on this..... but I can't find it here. From memory, it seemed to be a 12-15 year old cutoff, not the number of years smoking. Regular smoking before this age, and the changes were deemed 'permanent', due to the synaptic trimming at adolescence 'locking in' the changes. Permanent in quotes, because given enough time and repetition, the brain is incredibly plastic. Smoking regularly after this age, was more easily depotentiated.
 

tceight

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 11, 2010
315
12
Ontario, Canada
long time finding the time to write, but I have been keeping up with the experiments.
long story and a lot of mess short...

"Don't make it harder than it has to be"
The more steps, and stronger the acids/bases the better efficiency, but I was surprised at just how little was required to get something useful, and all for less than 10$. This brings a 'sense' of what WTA can do, for the masses not fortunate enough to experience DVAP's high octane stuff. :)


1. basify the tobacco. Use the sodium carbonate solution, and 1ml per gram.

I've tried leaving this step out, and did get 'something' but not much. At first, I was using very little water, and then had to try to get the oil back with the 'interface' method, but I think that method cost alkaloids due to diffusion.(rate was too slow). With a very tall column to increase the pressure, this could still work, but this is about simplicity.

2. add mineral oil, and let it soak for a few days

Not sure how long is 'enough'... it's always a few days before I ever get back to it. No heating is required. The less mineral oil you use, the higher concentration you will end up with. I've even squeezed out the tobacco, and added fresh tobacco to try to increase the concentration, but it doesn't seem to help much. Simple rule of thumb I use is about 1ml per gram.

3. squeeze out the tobacco, and filter oil.

if you get some water with it, just discard the water layer. An icing gun works well for squeezing with no mess.

4. acidify some distilled water by adding citric acid (vitamin C tablets) until no more will dissolve. Add this at 1/5 the volume of oil you have, shake and let settle for an hour. extract the water and keep it.

5. add equal volume of vg to the oil shake and let settle. extract the VG, and add to the water.
While I prefer PG, I've given up on trying to use it in this method, because of the amount of water used, thins the PG too much to be vapable.

6. Let this settle for a day, and using a syringe carefully extract the bottom portion of the liquid, leaving the surface 'layer' and a good amount of the vg behind. This is to ensure you don't carry any mineral oil over.


This is a compendium of different techniques I've tried that seems the best balance between simplicity and effectivness. There are some obvious improvements in tools and chemicals that can be applied by one with the knowledge and skills.
 

tceight

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 11, 2010
315
12
Ontario, Canada
Vit C is ascorbic acid - probably that or citric acid would work fine. Or ethanoic acid (vinegar). Forget which is strongest. Any thoughts on this ?

none of the above are optimal, but trying to keep this kitchen friendly. They are all 'weak' acids, but the strongest readily available that I could think of, was the citric acid. Ascorbic is 'close enough'. The vinegar will work too using it neat. Nasty tasting vape though. lol. better to use lime juice.
we are trying to get the pH down, l< 2 is optimal, < 3 is 'sufficient' but not efficient. There are other options, but not for the kitchen.
 
Last edited:

BCB

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Thank you very much, tceight, for the summary. I'm hopeful I won't ever need to try this but have saved the recipe for FDA armageddon, along with some tobacco seeds hidden away before Monsanto purchased an exclusive, thanks again to the FDA. Anyway, I've been waiting for just this kitchen-friendly recipe. You rock!
 

tceight

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 11, 2010
315
12
Ontario, Canada
Hi BCB.
Why wait? it really is simple, and once you have a taste, you may very well decide to convert all your snus to juice. :)
no, YOU rock. :p

btw, abandoning the interface method reopens the doors to more viscous oils, like olive or canola. Might be problems with emulsions, but worth a try.
 
Last edited:
The following is an updated version of notes from 2009. Still not very well written but a reasonable primer, I hope.

Nicotine, addiction and MAOIs

How does smoking affect the brain?


The psychological effects of smoking are surprisingly mild considering that smoking is generally regarded as hard to stop. While there are many behavioual and sensory aspects, nicotine has been regarded as the psychoactive ingredient, providing a mix or relaxation and improvement of focus and concentration (though some of this might be down to relief of the craving that builds up between cigarettes, there is good evidence to suggest that nicotine does have some beneficial effects on brain function).

Nicotine's effect on the brain is primarily through release of dopamine, the 'feel good' neurotransmitter that gives a sense of well-being.

Is nicotine the key psychoactive in smoking?

By itself it is not as addictive as generally believed - as evidenced by quite a few people being able to cut their nicotine use to zero in just days or weeks. The really addictive thing could be the combination of nicotine plus MAOIs (for which biochemistry of this double-whammy makes good sense), with perhaps other factors involved too.
"I question, however, whether nicotine is the active ingredient in tobacco. If it were, nicotine patches should satisfy a smoker's craving for tobacco; they don't! In prisons, where, as a part of the punishment, smoking is sometimes forbidden, the inmates take to smoking corn silk, paper, string, etc., none of which contain any nicotine. ... The authors of the widely respected "Merck Manual" say only that it is "probably" the active ingredient. ... The active ingredient in smoke is smoke."

"In Defence of Smokers", by Lauren A. Colby / Chapter 11

The first point is a very good one. Then, all psychoactive chemicals aside, there are the pleasures of that smoky taste (a mild dose of the harshness of tar can be experienced as pleasurable, lie say a hot chilli or a strong spirit) and of the (blowing out of) smoke ('sensory and behavioural cues'); de-niconised cigarettes can stave off cravings to some extent.

However, probably the point here is that the addiction comes from the whole smoke - at least, not just the nicotine.

What are MAOIs and what is their significance in smoking?

Brain chemistry is a complex of of balanced systems. Nicotine is known to stimulate the release of dopamine - a 'feel good' neurotransmitter. Monoamine oxidase enzymes maintain an equilibrium of monoamine levels by disposing of excess. In the complex system of checks and balances, there are monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs), whose role is to inhibit the removal of monoamines, of which dopamine is one, prolonging the effects of the monoamines. As such these chemicals are sometimes used as anti-depressant drugs; predictably, some dependence is created (cessation causes withdrawal symptoms). Hence, MAOIs act in synergy with nicotine to enhance its effect by keeping dopamine levels higher for longer.

"Among the different compounds contained in tobacco smoke, monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI) have recently been the focus of a particular interest (Berlin and Anthenelli, 2001). Monoamines are neurotransmitters found in the central nervous system. They are involved in sending signals to the brain which regulate sleep, arousal and pleasure ("Dopamine"). The three main monoamines studied by researchers are dopamine (DA), norepinephrine and serotonin. Monoamine oxidase is one enzyme responsible for the degradation of the monoamines. MAOIs are molecules that inhibit monoamine oxidase, and as a result increase the levels of monoamines found in the brain. According to newly developed research, a synergy between nicotine and MAOIs could be of importance for tobacco addiction to set up (Berlin and Anthenelli, 2001). Then, the association between nicotine and MAOI seems to be an appropriate model to study mechanisms underlying tobacco addiction."

D1 RECEPTORS IN MAOI AND NICOTINE SELF-ADMINISTRATION

There might be other substances that play an active role in the brain chemistry effects of smoking*, though so far MAOIs appear to be the key factor, with a well understood mechanism.

The synergy of MAOIs plus nicotine, plus additional mild, opiate-like activity, provide the unique features of tobacco smoke on human psychology (mild alertness coupled with mild relaxation).

MAOIs can be used to treat depression. One natural source is the plant St John's Wort. Incidentally, it is not clear what the active ingredients are exactly; hypericin has been isolated but is less effective than the whole extract.

SSRIs (Serotonin Specific Reuptake Inhibitors are similar to MAOIs) and can also used to treat depression. MAO metabolizes serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine. By inhibiting this, MAOIs increase levels of all these monoamine neurotransmitters.

While dopamine is involved in the regulation of mood, motivation and pain, serotonin has a broader range of activities, being involved in the regulation of mood, appetite, sleep, movement, memory and learning. Note that these associations are approximate descriptions of influences in complex biochemical systems.

Some people can switch to vaping nicotine only without a problem. However, for some there is 'something missing'. For some of these people, snus provides relief, either alone or with vaping, but without WTA some people will return to analogs.

Any experimental support for the role of MAOIs?

"Nicotine is the major neuroactive compound of tobacco, which has, by itself, weak reinforcing properties. It is known that levels of the enzymes monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A) and MAO-B are reduced in the platelets and brains of smokers and that substances, other than nicotine, present in tobacco smoke have MAO-inhibitory activities. Here, we report that inhibition of MAO dramatically and specifically increases the motivation to self-administer nicotine in rats."

Monoamine Oxidase Inhibition Dramatically Increases the Motivation to Self-Administer Nicotine in Rats -- Guillem et al. 25 (38): 8593 -- Journal of Neuroscience

Do MAOIs have any significance for vaping?

There has been some advocacy for nicotine-free cigarettes, the idea being to make them unappealing. A much better approach might be to increase the nicotine level in cigarettes so that less are smoked (given that the dangers with smoking are not the nicotine but the smoke); this was suggested by Pearson and Shaw; instead 'lights' were created. The best approach of course is to replace the cigarette (tobacco) with a purified nicotine. The e-cigarette does this together with the appearance of smoke (harmless fog) and works well as a smoking alternative for many people.

Whether the addition of a reversible (far safer) MAOI to e-liquid to enhance it's effectiveness further would be acceptable is open to debate.As we cannot be sure of all the mechanisms that might be involved, and which MAOIs most effective and safe, an e-liquid based on all the alkaloids present in tobacco would be the best option (WTA - Whole Tobacco Alkaloids).

If the research continues to hold up, NRTs should also address this issue for improving their effectiveness.
E-liquids followed the error of NRT products in just equating smoking with nicotine. The sister alkaloids (about 6% of the tobacco alkaloids with nicotine being about 94%) might be small in quantity, but important for effectiveness and 'roundness'.

What are alkaloids?

Not a very well defined term. The -oid just means 'resemble (in shape)'; in the way we say 'cuboid' or 'humanoid'. The alk- root is a contraction of alkaline (or 'basic' as opposed to acidic).

Organic compounds that have a basic nitrogen atom (one with electron lone pairs) are called amines and the term alkaloid is usually reserved for amines found naturally in plants.

Alkaloids, like other inorganic compounds, often involve a 6-carbon ring (compounds that include this benzene ring arrangement are denoted as 'aromatic' as opposed to 'aliphatic').
Nicotine is an alkaloid, and there are many others in tobacco too. Some of these alkaloids can behave as MAOIs.

The biochemistry is complex; there are different types of MAOI that affect, to different degrees, various messengers in the brain. That is, in psychoactive terms, they would produce different effects (some more relaxing, some more stimulating; though more complex than a single axis as in this example).

Basically, the combination of nicorine and MAOI makes the effect more dramatic - faster and stronger - and has been likened to the effect of amphetamines, but milder. As MAOIs generally have a much longer half-life, the effect is also longer.

MAOIs are not necessarily dramatic in effect; catechins are a type of MAOI found in tea that have a pleasant effect that is both relaxing and stimulating.

Any risk of MAOI overdose with WTA?

It doesnt happen with smoking, and the presence of the nicotine will ensure people 'cut-off'; in all likelihood, better satiation will lead to less consumption. In short, it will more probably work the other way. At the moment, many vape more and more looking for something that isn't there.

Only about 10% of the nicotine in tobacco finds its way out of a cigerette when smoked; and only about 3-4% of the 'minor alkaloids'. So WTA could well be much richer in MAOIs and need to be diluted with standard nicotine-only e-liquid.

However, there may be people for whom WTA is unsuitable depending on their medical condition or treatment program.

~~~

* Acetaldehyde (the first metabolite of ethanol, and a major factor responsible for hangovers) is one of a number of other smoke constituents that might help reinforce the psychoactive effects of nicotine.

See for example: University of California - UC Newsroom | Nicotine's addictive hold increases when combined with other tobacco smoke chemicals, UCI study finds

Other resources :

Monoamine oxidase inhibitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia basics of MAOIs
This is your brain on nicotine - MAO levels in smokers and non-smokers (particularly, MAO-B associated with dopamine and mood)
The Good Drug Guide : new mood-brighteners and antidepressants a very wide ranging look at psych-active drugs (including MAOIs)
Best news online about cigarettes and tobacco.: Nicotine does not cause cigarette addiction on the nicotine/MAOI link
Smoking's reward: nicotine triggers opiate-pleasure response. - Free Online Library - on opiode receptors

Original posts:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...bsorption-addictiveness-maois.html#post683086 October 2009.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...wards-more-effective-e-liquid.html#post732579 November 2009
 
Last edited:
Some thoughts. Very much a 'for what they're worth' (not a lot) post as experiential and hard to say anything with much certainty.

I've had a 70mg nicotine (in PG) liquid for over a year and today tried it neat. To me the immediate effect was hardly dfferent from the 30mg I usually use. But I did notice that i felt more satiated by it. So no effects that were noticeable other than the effect lasted longer. No surprise there really; but feel that use of a higher nic level is probably better than 'over-use' of a lower level if one feels that need.

Then tried holding in longer and - after reading a thread elsewhere - let the vapor out through the nose; both help absoption significantly. The first not surprisingly; the second was quite an eye-opener - seemed to make quite a difference.

Lastly, feeling stressed by work, took supplements of GABA, inositol and vitamin B3 in niacin form. These definetely work for me - mellowing, well stress reducing. I can't say which work best and they are all interesting in different ways and of interest to those who might need a something extra substitute because they're not attracted to snus.

Inositol and niacin / vitamin B family supplements are safe for pretty much anyone. If on medications, take care with GABA.
 
Last edited:

brokenbrains

Full Member
Aug 8, 2010
40
6
Wa
I've had a 70mg nicotine (in PG) liquid for over a year and today tried it neat. To me the immediate effect was hardly dfferent from the 30mg I usually use. But I did notice that i felt more satiated by it. So no effects that were noticeable other than the effect lasted longer. No surprise there really; but feel that use of a higher nic level is probably better than 'over-use' of a lower level if one feels that need

Me, I could scarcely discern any immediate difference between 60mg and 30mg. The 60mg does seem to keep me from blowing through atties quite so fast, and that's always a plus.

Should maybe point out that I was smoking straight Burley (and sometimes Rustica) prior to vaping, so my needs might be a tad unusual. Heh.


Then tried holding in longer and - after reading a thread elsewhere - let the vapor out through the nose; both help absoption significantly. The first not surprisingly; the second was quite an eye-opener - seemed to make quite a difference.

Ever tried that 'French Inhale' trick? MAJOR difference between what goes in and what comes out. I always figured it was a good indication that something was getting absorbed somewhere. Highly recommended.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread