Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[brokenbrains]

Exhale.
Draw vapor into mouth.
Inhale (steadily!) through nose, while you
Push vapor out of mouth by (slowly!) closing it.

The effect is very similar to nasal snuff, including all the tingling and even the occasional sneeze. High nic juices and certain flavourings may burn a bit.

Also kind of a neat party trick.
The are some demonstrations on youtube (search 'french inhale'), but I couldn't find anything spectacular.

 

[Hotwire]

Am bookmarking this thread.

Haven't read it all but I too still smoke tho I have cut down to around 50%.

I still feel something is missing from vaping - that relxing feeling. Nicotine from vaping just stimulates me like crazy which is good for the daytime but not for the evenign and night. I have often thought more tobacco consituants than just nicotine should be added to juices to further increase the liklihood of getting us off of the cigarettes.

 

[Hotwire]

Do any juice makers put maois or other tobacco alkaloids in their juices yet? I know some use organic tobacco extracts in theirs but they don't mention if their juices contain any other psycoactive ingredient than nicotine.

If there are such juices I WANT THEM. Heck if I could find a juice that made me feel relaxed a tad rather than my heartbeat pounding in my eardums like anything over 11mg does - I would pay premium prices for it without batting an eyelid.... Anything to help me further cut down the cig intake.

 

[tescela]

If there are such juices I WANT THEM. Heck if I could find a juice that made me feel relaxed a tad rather than my heartbeat pounding in my eardums like anything over 11mg does - I would pay premium prices for it without batting an eyelid....

Welcome, Hotwire. Based on the above quote, you could be a physical manifestation of the collective consciousness of participants in this and similar threads in this forum.

(We don't just want WTA eliquid. WE WANT WTA ELIQUID NOW...and we will pay premium prices for it.)

 

[kinabaloo]

tceight - re your extraction method

There are a few points that could be more clear - for example, the carnonate solution : how best to prepare this to get the maximum concentration / highest pH ?

I think once it is as clear as can be, we can suggest that those who no-way will go back to analogs, download a copy and perhaps practice it while we can still discuss such matters. For the end of days might not be far off. The end of forums like this, the end of even nicotine only liquid.

 

[BCB]

Good point, kin. I've got 2 jobs and am remodeling the kitchen so now isn't a real good time for me but now may be the best time after all, so I should at least TRY to make myself a batch. tceight says it's not that hard to do.

 

[kinabaloo]

It would be completely irrational but I feel that some kind of ban is quite likely. Hopefully not, but good to be prepared.

It is pretty simple to do. I will try this exact method myself soon.

 

[tceight]

... the carnonate solution : how best to prepare this to get the maximum concentration / highest pH ?

I just used a saturated solution (so no more will dissolve) and this should be pH 11. Higher isn't better, as close to 100% protonation (of both sites) occurs at pH10. (this is according to people who actually know this stuff)
A couple ways to achieve the carbonate 'food grade' were listed in the original post.
One thing I should add, as it may be a factor...
all the tobacco I've used has been finely ground.
I just ground up a pound, and have been using that as it's much easier to handle by the teaspoon.
mechanical grinding will no doubt affect the rate of absorption into the oil.

 

[kinabaloo]

I just used a saturated solution (so no more will dissolve) and this should be pH 11. Higher isn't better, as close to 100% protonation (of both sites) occurs at pH10. (this is according to people who actually know this stuff)
A couple ways to achieve the carbonate 'food grade' were listed in the original post.
One thing I should add, as it may be a factor...
all the tobacco I've used has been finely ground.
I just ground up a pound, and have been using that as it's much easier to handle by the teaspoon.
mechanical grinding will no doubt affect the rate of absorption into the oil.

As I suspected.

The carbonate is made by heating sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in an oven at 400C for half and hour.

The chipping of the tobacco makes sense; though not essential, it might increase the yield somewhat.

With a minimum or scientific jargon, this is the reasoning :

Organic chemistry, as the name implies, is the chemistry of life, or made by living things; more specifically the covalent bonding of carbon chemistry (catenation). Alkaloids are organic compounds that have an alkaline quality due to the presence of a basic nitrogen atom (a nitogen atom that affects the electron distribution in a carbon ring or chain); hence will form salts in an acidic environment. The carbonate creates hydroxide ions in water that deprotonate the alkaloid salts to freebase form, which are more soluble in the oil. When the acid is added to the oil, the freebase alkaloids are protonated to salts, which are soluable only in the water layer. The purpose of these steps is to eliminate non-alkaloid organic compounds (will not or barely dissolve in water) and inorganic compounds (will not dissolve or barely so in oil, an organic solvent).

apolgies to any chemists spilling their catechin solution / other brew

Wonder if could seal the glasware with molten candle wax as then could increase surface are contact of the imiscibles by way of agitation to emulson while excluding oxidation prospects ?

 

[slopes]

This is a fantastic thread. If tceight's process results in a juice which more closely resembles the smoking experience, I am very keen to try it. I've been vaping for 6 months and, yes, something is definitely missing (my concentration levels have diminished considerably).

tceight, have a few questions I hope you can answer.

1) What is the actual nicotine content of your solution? Would it be possible to cut it with flavoured e-liquid to modify the flavour, increase/decrease nic levels, increase the overall usable yield?

2) Someone mentioned a while back - is it possible to use powdered snuff instead of finely ground cigarette tobacco?

3) Kind request - is it possible for you to amend your original written process to include all subsequent modifications - so that we have a definitive (as of now) guide that any reasonably intelligent layman (like me) can use? I know that this would take up a bit of your time but it would be very much appreciated and would enable people to try making your solution being sure they have understood each step.

Thanks all, and keep up the great work!!

 

[kinabaloo]

Provisional answers :

1: can be calculated (approximately) assuming say 80% extraction, the amount of alkaloids (of which about 95% is nicotine) in the tobacco (varies but typically 4%) and the liquid volume. *

2: yes - well, I think so. snus, yes. snuff not so sure.

3: See this particular post : http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-more-effective-e-liquid-51.html#post2518206

~~

* Example: combining the 80% and 4% gives ~3%.

So 1kg tobacco has about 30g alkaloids extractable.

If ended up with 200ml of liquid, this would be 3/200 = 15mg / ml

This is likely to be MAOI richer than smoking, so I would consider blending it 1:1 with a standard nicotine only liquid of about the same strength.

Notes :

So one would end of with about 200ml of 15mg liquid - about 6-7 30ml bottles from 1kg of tobacco. For the average person, that's over two months vaping. Extraction could give 8x more use than burning the same amount of tobacco (because about 90% of the alkaloids are wasted in combustion).

To start, better to try a smaller amount, say 100mg of tobacco.

 

[tescela]

Kind request - is it possible for you to amend your original written process to include all subsequent modifications - so that we have a definitive (as of now) guide that any reasonably intelligent layman (like me) can use? I know that this would take up a bit of your time but it would be very much appreciated and would enable people to try making your solution being sure they have understood each step.

Welcome to the thread, slopes!

Everyone: ideally, we would have a summary of the key findings from these threads on at least one other website.

Provisional answers (jumping in)

1: can be calculated (approximately) assuming say 80% extraction, the amount of alkaloids (of which about 95% is nicotine) in the tobacco (varies but typically 4%) and the liquid volume. *

2: yes

3: See this particular post : http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-more-effective-e-liquid-51.html#post2518206

~~

* Example: combining the 80% and 4% gives ~3%.

So 1kg tobacco has about 30g alkaloids extractable.

If ended up with 200ml of liquid, this would be 3/200 = 15mg / ml

This is likely to be MAOI richer than smoking, so I would consider blending it 1:1 with a standard nicotine only liquid of about the same strength.

Notes :

So one would end of with about 200ml of 15mg liquid - about 6-7 30ml bottles from 1kg of tobacco. For the average person, that's over two months vaping. Extraction could give 8x more use than burning the same amount of tobacco (because about 90% of the alkaloids are wasted in combustion).

To start, better to try a smaller amount, say 100mg of tobacco.

kinabaloo: since using WTA eliquid apparently results in a dramatic reduction in the consumption of total eliquid (relative to nic-only eliquid), wouldn't the quantities of WTA eliquid discussed actually last much longer for the average vaper?

 

[kinabaloo]

kinabaloo: since using WTA eliquid apparently results in a dramatic reduction in the consumption of total eliquid (relative to nic-only eliquid), wouldn't the quantities of WTA eliquid discussed actually last much longer for the average vaper?

Indeed. That is possibly in contrast to nicotine intake through vaping as compared to that from smoking - see below.

~~~

Been thinking over the numbers because it doesn't seem quite right and I know why now.

It is often said the avg vaper consumes 3ml / day and I am guessing avg strength as ~15mg/ml. The total nic is thus 45mg of whereas a 20 cigs/day smoker (1mg/cig absorbed from the 10mg that is in the leaf - 9mg is wasted) gives 20mg. Even allowing for exhalation loss, I've over-estimated the amount vaped. So when I said over two months supply, over 3-4 months would be a better estimate. (Although vapers maybe do consume more nicotine to balance the lack of other constituents? I think that this is the case; guestimate: 50% more, though this often diminishes over time and many vapers end up on lower nicotine intake.)

For comparison, a cig contains about 1mg of tobacco. So 1kg equates to 1000 cigs; at 20/day that is a 50 days supply.

So assuming ~75% absorbed in vaping, and an equivalent intake of 20mg/day, that would be ~1.5ml / day of 15mg/ml liquid. So that 200 ml would last about 130 days. So towards three times longer than if that 1kg of tobacco were smoked.

~~~

The amount of liquid - total, water (basified / acidified according to the step) + oll - would be only just enough to create a soggy mush, such that the three parts are well intertwined (hence a good squueze out is required after). Perhaps a good container would be a strong polythene bagsealed airtight with as much air excluded as possible. This could easily be manipulated every so often to keep the liquids from separating too much while in process. An electric, slowly rotating stone polishing tumbler would be handy - put the bag inside and it will do the mixing nicely. How long the extraction and diffusion into/out of the oil - depends on the amount of agitation, but would probably need to be at least 6 hours. tceight might be able to give a better idea. Would certainly want to exclude air if for longer (days).

~~~

btw : the 200ml liquid that i refer to is after the final water layer is added to VG; ideally with 80%+ being VG.

~~~

Exogenesis has posted a titration method for determining the nic/alkaloid content of an e-liquid that is feasible for home determination by a technically savvy person. DVap too.

~~~

On step 4 in tceight's post: maybe repeat the shake a number of times over an hour or two. Also, re vitamin C tablets - these are often mostly filler, and may even be 'buffered' (so no use) - so best to use pure citric acid.

 

[kinabaloo]

Jean-Pol Tassin, Directeur de Recherches Inserm, Université Paris VI

Tobacco is a potent reinforcing agent in humans, and nicotine is generally considered to be the major compound responsible for its addictive properties. However, animal experiments indicate some discrepancies between the effects of nicotine and those of other drugs of abuse. For example, the capacity of repeated nicotine to elevate dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens is controversial and we have shown that repeated nicotine treatments in rats induce a behavioural sensitization which vanishes more quickly than that for other drugs of abuse. Furthermore, although psychostimulants and opiates induce a substantial locomotor hyperactivity both in rats and mice, nicotine is a weak locomotor stimulant in rats and generally fails to induce locomotor hyperactivity in mice at any dose. These differences could suggest that the addictive effects of tobacco are not only due to nicotine.

Actually, tobacco and tobacco smoke are known to contain monoamine oxidise inhibitors (MAOIs), such as harmane, norharmane or acetaldehyde. We have shown that MAOI pre-treatment allows the maintenance of behavioural sensitization to nicotine in rats, thus suggesting a role of MAOIs in the addictive properties of tobacco. More recently, tranylcypromine, a potent MAOI, was found to be able to trigger a locomotor response to nicotine in mice and nicotine self-administration in rats. Moreover, increases in extracellular 5-HT levels appeared to be crucial for these effects (Villegier et al., 2006).

Nicotine increases serotonergic neurons firing. However, this increased release of 5-HT -in absence of MAOI- is transient because of a retro-feedback inhibition on 5-HT1A autoreceptors. We have therefore proposed that MAOIs, because of their enhancing effects on extracellular 5-HT levels, compensate the consequences of the indirect inhibition of serotonergic cells by nicotine, thus suggesting a mechanism by which MAOI’s contained in tobacco smoke could act in synergy with nicotine to induce addiction (Tassin, 2008). Recent experiments using 5-HT1A agonists and antagonists have indicated that MAOIs contained in tobacco desensitize 5-HT1A autoreceptors to trigger the strong addictive properties of tobacco (Lanteri et al., 2009).​

12th Annual Meeting of the SRNT Europe

Nicotine may not be the only psychoactive component in tobacco smoke, according to a study funded in part by NIDA. Using positron emission tomography, an advanced neuroimaging technology, Dr. Joanna S. Fowler and her colleagues at Brookhaven National Laboratory in Upton, New York, have produced images showing that smoking decreases the brain levels of an important enzyme that breaks down the neurotransmitter dopamine. The amount of the enzyme, called monoamine oxidase (MAO), is reduced by 30 to 40 percent in the brains of smokers, compared to nonsmokers or former smokers, the brain scans show. The reduction in brain MAO levels may result in an increase in levels of dopamine, which scientists associate with the reinforcing effects of drugs of abuse.

Although nicotine causes increases in brain dopamine, it does not affect MAO levels, research has shown. Thus it appears that another component of tobacco smoke is inhibiting MAO. "Whatever is inhibiting MAO could be acting in concert with nicotine to enhance dopamine's activity by preventing its breakdown," says Dr. Fowler.

The concept that the smoking-related reduction of MAO activity may synergize with nicotine's stimulation of dopamine levels to produce the diverse behavioral effects of smoking suggests that MAO inhibitor drugs may be useful as an additional therapy in smoking cessation efforts, she adds. MAO inhibitor drugs are used to treat depression and Parkinson's disease. One such drug, moclobemide, is already being used experimentally to assist persons trying to quit smoking.​

NIDA NOTES - Tobacco Smoke May Contain a Psychoactive Ingredient Other Than Nicotine

Also worth a read : http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...&sig=AHIEtbSB9FCjM_bEE7w3YbXUSqb8rZlfcw&pli=1

 

[kinabaloo]

Further to my earlier post (#533), it makes sense that new vapers consume increased levels of nicotine - they need to do this to achieve similar levels of dopamine to what they had been used to, absent the MAOIs to boost and sustain dopamine. The anecdotal evidence, of which there is plenty in these forums, suggests that not only will new vapers initially often consume higher totals (per day) of nicotine (for the first few weeks or so), but do so in a patterm of use with a shorter interval - again what one would expect absent the dopamine sustaining effects of MAOIs.

Thus these observed behavious are not (just) down to novelty as has been assumed, but fit very well with the fact that vaping involves nicotine only without the MAOIs found in cigarette smoke. The role of MAOIs explains both observations.

~~~

Interesting, easy access discussion of the issue :

http://mistressnomad.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/a-lifeline-for-the-new-vaper-in-trouble/

 

[DVap]

For recovery, 80% might be a bit of a stretch. The problem I've seen with the tobaccos I've used is that we just don't know the starting alkaloid percentage. Lately, I've been getting 120 mg of alkaloids per 10 grams of NAS tobacco. If the tobacco alkaloid content is 1.2%, then that's 100%, but if the alkaloid content is 2%, then that's only 60%, etc.

Using snus (so far) seems to have it's own difficulties with recovery (<50%) based on the amount of 8 mg snus I used.

Provisional answers :

1: can be calculated (approximately) assuming say 80% extraction, the amount of alkaloids (of which about 95% is nicotine) in the tobacco (varies but typically 4%) and the liquid volume. *

2: yes - well, I think so. snus, yes. snuff not so sure.

3: See this particular post : http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-more-effective-e-liquid-51.html#post2518206

~~

* Example: combining the 80% and 4% gives ~3%.

So 1kg tobacco has about 30g alkaloids extractable.

If ended up with 200ml of liquid, this would be 3/200 = 15mg / ml

This is likely to be MAOI richer than smoking, so I would consider blending it 1:1 with a standard nicotine only liquid of about the same strength.

Notes :

So one would end of with about 200ml of 15mg liquid - about 6-7 30ml bottles from 1kg of tobacco. For the average person, that's over two months vaping. Extraction could give 8x more use than burning the same amount of tobacco (because about 90% of the alkaloids are wasted in combustion).

To start, better to try a smaller amount, say 100mg of tobacco.

 

[slopes]

Thanks for your replies guys. Has anyone tried making and vaping tceight's recipe? If so, what are the experiences of it?

kinabaloo - I was aware of tceight's amended process you linked back to - as well as the earlier (fuller) instructions it refers to. It's just that having no chemistry knowledge, I struggle to cross-reference the two posts.

For example, when the subsequent discussion talks about 'carnonate solution'. 'baking soda', and 'sodium bicarbonate' - especially with reference to heating it to 400C... then I get confused.

 

[kinabaloo]

Thanks for your replies guys. Has anyone tried making and vaping tceight's recipe? If so, what are the experiences of it?

kinabaloo - I was aware of tceight's amended process you linked back to - as well as the earlier (fuller) instructions it refers to. It's just that having no chemistry knowledge, I struggle to cross-reference the two posts.

For example, when the subsequent discussion talks about 'carnonate solution'. 'baking soda', and 'sodium bicarbonate' - especially with reference to heating it to 400C... then I get confused.

The carbonate is made by heating the commonly found bicarbonate. The carbonate has a higher pH - is more alkaline; to the required degree.

Hope we get a thorough step by step guide sometime. I will try to take photos when i get around to it.

~~~

edit : apparently 200C is hot enough for the conversion of bicarbonate (baking powder) to the required carbonate. One will see bubbles of carbon dioxide and steam released. When that stops, it is ready.

This is how it makes cakes rise. And its use in fire extinguishers.

Thermal decomposition : 2 NaHCO3 → Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2

Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda / powder) is better named sodium hydrogen carbonate.

 

[kinabaloo]

For recovery, 80% might be a bit of a stretch. The problem I've seen with the tobaccos I've used is that we just don't know the starting alkaloid percentage. Lately, I've been getting 120 mg of alkaloids per 10 grams of NAS tobacco. If the tobacco alkaloid content is 1.2%, then that's 100%, but if the alkaloid content is 2%, then that's only 60%, etc.

Using snus (so far) seems to have it's own difficulties with recovery (<50%) based on the amount of 8 mg snus I used.

So a rough avg of 4% alkaloids for smoking tobacco ight be a bit on the high side also ?

2% alkaloids for typical cigarette tobacco might be a better avg. And extraction efficiency maybe nearer 60-70%.

Maybe rather than simply dessicating the tobacco, it would be better to mascerate it. Wonder if cellulase might also help make the alkaloids more available ...

 

[brokenbrains]

You might be able to find 4% in burley, but...
Cigarette tobacco is usually a blend of burley, virginia, and oriental. Virginia and oriental are a little closer to 1%.

An average of <2% (available, dry weight) would seem reasonable.