Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kinabaloo]

Summary of method (after tceight). What I did, not what you should do.

I needed :

* Some tobacco or snus or snuff (say 20g or more)

* Extra virgin olive oil

* Distilled water (or de-ionised water)

* Pure vitamin C powder (ascorbic acid) (no fillers and not buffered)

* Sodium bicarbonate ('baking soda' or 'bicarbonate of soda') (not 'baking powder') heated in oven at 250C for 1/2 hour to convert it to sodium carbonate (effectively sodium hydroxide when dissolved in water). Creating my carbonate this way ensured that the carbonate is food grade.

Step 1: I added saturated carbonate solution to the tabacoo until all the tobacco was wet, but without having excess (free-running) liquid. Added a similar amount of olive oil. Added some carbonate powder. Mixed and gently mashed this for about 20 minutes or so.

Step 2: Squeezed out the mush, through a cloth filter to retain solids. Allowed the liquid to separate in a narrow transparent container. Kept the top oil layer and threw away bottom layer. Didn't want to take any of the bottom layer so I had to leave behind a little bit of the oil.

Step 3: Added a few drops of saturated (dissolved as much as could) ascorbic acid solution to some distilled water (about same or less in quantity as my oil); I might need to scale up if my tobacco was more than 20g. Added the oil, shook and let separate. Repeated a few times with 5 minute intervals.

This time, I retained the bottom water layer and threw away the top oil layer. Added 4x as much VG as I had water and mixed. Alternatively I could have added to standard e-liquid, or done something inbetween.

~~~

Notes

Purpose :

To extract the alkaloids (and, more or less. nothing more) as a far safer alternative to smoking that tobacco, It leaves behind the tar, probably most of the TSNAs and other harmful toxins. And because thw WTA is not combusted, no monoxide or other combustion products also.

Tips / extras :

step 1 : I could have warmed/heated the oil first. I might need to add a bit more oil after some time.

Used a syringe to extract desired layer.

Observations :

step 1 : the tobacco mash gets increasingly dark and a slight smell of ammonia noticed.

step 3 : the deeper color transfers from the oil to the water; if not, I add some more acid solution

Science :

step 1 : freebases the alkaloid salts that then mix/dissolve with/in the non-polar oil (leaving behind nearly all non-organics)

step 3 : acid salts the alkaloids that then dissolve in the water (leaving behind nearly all non-alkaloid organics)

 

[kinabaloo]

Interesting tidbit of info :

leaves turn red in autumn due to anthocyanins being protonated by an increasingly acidic sap; the leaves act as a pH indicator.

 

[slopes]

So end product about 3o ml of 15mg/ml WTA liquid from about £2 of snuff

I'm sure as techniques improve it will be possible to squeeze out a better yield.

I'm off to bed - thanks a million kinabaloo for all your help. I will continue testing the juice tomorrow.

 

[kinabaloo]

I'm sure as techniques improve it will be possible to squeeze out a better yield.

I'm off to bed - thanks a million kinabaloo for all your help. I will continue testing the juice tomorrow.

Feels good - I think this is a winner with these tweaks

goodnight

~~~

I feel that with the extra carbonate crystals in the mash, I am getting a 90%+ extraction from the tobacco. If the next stages are done with care, a very good overall efficiency is possible I feel.

And the veg oil definetly works far better as the non polar solvent than mineral oil.

 

[slopes]

I feel that with the extra carbonate crystals in the mash, I am getting a 90%+ extraction from the tobacco. If the next stages are done with care, a very good overall efficiency is possible I feel.

Let's hope so.

Good night.

 

[kinabaloo]

The key to this WTA is not (for me at least) some special buzzz (there wasn't), or special taste; but that it is subtlely satiating - not a feeling in itself (though it is noticeably relaxing) but takes away (satiates) the craving feeling in a way that just nic does not. And why wouldn't it - it's liquid tobacco

~~~

Significantly oxidised, judging from the deep color, but still good.

 

[kinabaloo]

A further note on adding extra carbonate crystals to the tobacco mash. I've noted earlier that it maintains the saturation of hydroxide content in the water as water from the tobacco is released. It seems to me that having the saturated solution in contact with the tobacco probably also helps pull that water content out.

Plus the mechanical sandpapering effect.

 

[DVap]

kinabaloo - can you help me on this? My understanding is that if a liquid is volatile it will evaporate quickly and completely at room temperature. So there will be no more of that liquid left in the resulting WTA/acidified water concentrate? Although the VG it is mixed with might end up giving a very orangey taste in this instance.

True enough for a pure component. Once the concentration of such a component present in a mixture is reduced significantly via evaporation, it effectively becomes a solute rather than a solvent... and quite a bit harder to remove. Just beware that after a point, solvent/solute interaction can become as significant or more significant than a boiling point.

 

[kinabaloo]

True enough for a pure component. Once the concentration of such a component present in a mixture is reduced significantly via evaporation, it effectively becomes a solute rather than a solvent... and quite a bit harder to remove. Just beware that after a point, solvent/solute interaction can become as significant or more significant than a boiling point.

Good point DVap. Plus BPs are complex when there are mixtures of miscible liquids.

Physics / chemistry gets fuzzy at the edges / extremities

 

[kinabaloo]

Detailed what I dd here : http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-more-effective-e-liquid-87.html#post2644164

 

[DVap]

Has anyone talked about doing multiple basic water rinses/shakes on the oil layer until the water layer is much clearer... brfore finally adding the acidic water? Should serve to reduce the water extractable non-alkaloids.

 

[kinabaloo]

Has anyone talked about doing multiple basic water rinses/shakes on the oil layer until the water layer is much clearer... brfore finally adding the acidic water? Should serve to reduce the water extractable non-alkaloids.

I think that this was in tceights original method but was dropped as seemed not to do much and to keep the procedure simpler (less steps).

But it makes sense and is quick to do. Could end with a quite weak basic wash (but not too weak).

This step would be just before the shaking of the oil with acidic water :

Make some half-strength carbonate solution (half saturated carbonate (added to) half pure distilled water) and shake with the oil. After separation, throw away the alkaline water.

 

[wherewolf]

Great work! All of you pioneers are truly an inspiration! Thank all of you for your dedication to this process!

I need to verify something before I try this entire process - I went back searching for verification within this thread, but couldn't find enough info to be sure....

In some "recipes" the carbonate solution is made from "Baking Soda" in other iterations it's referred to as "Baking Powder" or "Baking Soda / Powder" - both of which get heated in the oven according to what I've read.

However, "Baking Powder" is different than Soda (essentially the equiv of 2 parts Cream of Tartar and 1 part Baking Soda) Whereas "Baking Soda" is just "Baking Soda".

1. Does it matter?
2. Does it change the reaction? (better/worse)

I just desire to be consistent with a method so as to obtain repeatable results....

Keep up the fine work!

Wherewolf

 

[kinabaloo]

Good point Wherewolf.

My mistake.

Baking Soda is correct - pure sodium bicarbonate.

Baking Powder is wrong - that is a mix of bicarbonate and an acid to that it self-fizzes.

Check the ingredient is only sodium bicarbonate (sometimes described as bicarbonate of soda).

 

[slopes]

I think that this was in tceights original method but was dropped as seemed not to do much and to keep the procedure simpler (less steps).

But it makes sense and is quick to do. Could end with a quite weak basic wash (but not too weak).

This step would be just before the shaking of the oil with acidic water :

Make some half-strength carbonate solution (half saturated carbonate (added to) half pure distilled water) and shake with the oil. After separation, throw away the alkaline water.

tceights was also worried that this procedure might cost some alkaloids. Is it correct to say that after an initial rinse with a mildly acidic distilled water, additional rinses can be done using regular tap water to further clean the oil?

 

[kinabaloo]

tceights was also worried that this procedure might cost some alkaloids. Is it correct to say that after an initial rinse with a mildly acidic distilled water, additional rinses can be done using regular tap water to further clean the oil?

No point. And one would never use tap water for anything !

The acidic water is not to 'clean' the oil but to extract the alkaloids from the oil.

How is the vape today ?

 

[slopes]

The vape is good. It definitely has a 'heady' effect. And it appears to be much more satiating than commercial e liquid. With this stuff, you get the pleasant (and once familiar) feeling of 'ok, that's enough for now'.

I'm wondering what a 50/50 mix would do?

 

[kinabaloo]

The vape is good. It definitely has a 'heady' effect. And it appears to be much more satiating than commercial e liquid. With this stuff, you get the pleasant (and once familiar) feeling of 'ok, that's enough for now'.

I'm wondering what a 50/50 mix would do?

God to hear

For most people that 50/50 mix would be closer to the ideal vape for most people I'd say.

 

[slopes]

God to hear

Only if God is listening.

 

[slopes]

Would it be dangerous to try a 50/50 mix?

I remember a while back someone saying how they felt quite ill after overdoing a WTA mix... but I wonder if that wasn't just an extreme case of the 'my first cigarette' nausea we all once experienced.