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slopes

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Jul 19, 2009
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With all this talk of Lab-purified whole tobacco alkaloids, it's worth noting that people should be very careful with the results of the Kitchen WTA method of extraction.

Without all the familiar guards to over-use found with cigarettes (the more immediate responses, feeling physically unwell, the known size and strength of portions taken etc) it is easy to overdo it with vaping WTA.

I had a restless night last night and woke up several times feeling very much 'under the influence' of something. This was after spending much of the time yesterday vaping what I thought were small amounts of my diluted Lime WTA.

I think the sooner a standardised recipe for Kitchen WTA is published the better. This would include fixed amounts of all ingredients along with guidance on mixing up set quantities of e-liquids from it. If possible, an indication of a mixed WTA e-liquid's equivalence to real cigarettes should also be made... for example: 10ml of a 30%wta/70%VG = 100 cigarettes.
 
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2cb

Moved On
Jan 17, 2011
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i would like to know if anyone has tried to add a small dose (1-3mg range) of free-base Harmine/Harmaline to e-liquid in an atomizer, to note the effects they may have as MAO inhibitors. i cite those specifically, because they are easily/cheaply extractable/available, and like many others, i think they may be the key missing elements. i myself find that i do not miss Nicotine when i am vaping, but i do not achieve the state after 10 hits or so where i say to myself "i am done, i had enough", ie, the quick point where i can put down the vaporizer like a finished cigarette, and move on to other things. i also wonder if there may be dual actions to the Harmala alkaloids:

1. potentiating the effect of Nicotine, so that less does more, for a longer time interval.

2. anihilating the desire for further psychoactive effects.

#1 seems to be something people are aware of, but #2 crosses my mind from studies such as these:

EXAMPLE 2 A second experiment was conducted using a 10 mg/kg dose of harmaline administered interperitoneally on a daily basis for five days. Similar results were observed. The treated group showed ethanol consumption ranging from one half to one quarter that of control group during the five days of daily harmaline administration. The five day post treatment period showed the harmaline group drinking fifty to twenty five percent less ethanol than the control group. Additional research showed harmine to produce similar physiological effects as harmaline at approximately 400 percent the dose of harmaline. EXAMPLE 3 A twenty-three year old, 140 pound male human subject using one to three grams of ....... daily via nasal administration was provided a single dose of 500 mg of harmaline HCl per os. Subject immediately discontinued ....... use. Subject's ....... use was interrupted for a period of four months. Subject had been previously treated with 500 mg of a total alkaloid extract of T. iboga with no significant effect on drug use. Conversely, it should be noted, however, that three persons successfully treated with ibogaine had no response to the administration of harmaline in interrupting their drug use. EXAMPLE 4 A thirty-two year old, 136 pound male human subject using twenty dollars worth of ...... a day (approximately 40 mg/day) via IV route. The subject interspersed his use of ...... with 15 mg and 30 mg injections of morphine and unknown quantities of pantopon. The subject was given an IV injection of 100 mg of harmaline HCl. A second 100 mg IV injection of harmaline HCl was given six hours later. Subject discontinued ...... use for a period of three weeks after which contact with the subject was lost. Subject's cigarette consumption which had been between one and two packs a day immediately ceased. This continued for ten days after which subject began smoking at a reduced rate. It should be noted that IV administrations of harmala alkaloids are significantly more toxic than oral administrations and it is advised that they not be used in medical practice. EXAMPLE 5 Male subject, twenty-four years of age, weighing 153 pounds was using 20 mg of ...... and 250 mg of ....... per day both via IV route and was drinking twelve to sixteen cups of coffee per day. Subject was administered 750 mg of harmaline base in a split dose of 500 mg followed by 250 mg twenty minutes later. Subject's use of ...... and ....... ceased immediately. Coffee consumption initially dropped to one half to one cup per day but, was increased to three to four cups per day within two weeks. ....... use ceased for a period of two months at which time subject began nasal use of approximately 50 mg/day. Within three months subject was using ....... and amphetamine IV and barbiturates per os. Subject had not returned to ...... use at this time but, contact with the subject was lost and no further information was available. EXAMPLE 6 Male subject, age twenty-two, estimated weight 120 pounds, using two grams of amphetamine and/or desoxyephedrine per day via IV route was administered 500 mg of harmaline base. Subject immediately ceased stimulant use. Contact was lost two weeks later when subject left city in which treatment was administered for location unknown. The present invention, thus, affords an effective means of treating a chemical dependency disorder, an abuse syndrome or a combination thereof. The effectiveness thereof is evidenced by either a reduced or interrupted intake of substances tending to cause the disorder or syndrome. Thus, as described hereinabove, the treatment of the present invention leads to either a reduced or interrupted intake of such substances by the subject mammal. Further, this result may be obtained without generating a subsequent chemical dependency disorder or abuse syndrome based upon the treatment.
 

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Nicotiana Alchemia
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Seems reasonable to me. Just need to keep the maths up to scratch in terms of what concentration is likely at - and we can scrub the 50% efficiency of extraction and assume 100% till we know otherwise.

Not 100%, bur rather 100% relative to my procedure...which could yield considerably less than 100%.
 
Not 100%, bur rather 100% relative to my procedure...which could yield considerably less than 100%.

Yes good point. Ok, so let's say that 50% would give a rough guide, but that it could be higher.

The yield was 12mg / g (1.2%) with NAS tobacco having about 2%.
 
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With all this talk of Lab-purified whole tobacco alkaloids, it's worth noting that people should be very careful with the results of the Kitchen WTA method of extraction.

Without all the familiar guards to over-use found with cigarettes (the more immediate responses, feeling physically unwell, the known size and strength of portions taken etc) it is easy to overdo it with vaping WTA.

I had a restless night last night and woke up several times feeling very much 'under the influence' of something. This was after spending much of the time yesterday vaping what I thought were small amounts of my diluted Lime WTA.

I think the sooner a standardised recipe for Kitchen WTA is published the better. This would include fixed amounts of all ingredients along with guidance on mixing up set quantities of e-liquids from it. If possible, an indication of a mixed WTA e-liquid's equivalence to real cigarettes should also be made... for example: 10ml of a 30%wta/70%VG = 100 cigarettes.

Maybe you'd do better with a blend of mostly normal e-liquid with a small amount (say 20%) of WTA. It's only a suggestion. Everybody is different so there can't be any standard recommendations.
 

kardenm

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If in the wings their WTA was not already awaiting launch, I would be totally stunned by the inconpetence.

Quite right I think. I'm essentially 100% sure that BT has already knows everything there is to know about tobacco chemistry and extraction of alkaloids from it. It would be utterly foolish for them not to know. It's their thing and they have alot of resources.
They may not however have figured out the effects of vaping it. Lots of liability and regulations there. We may unwittingly be their guinea pigs.
 
Quite right I think. I'm essentially 100% sure that BT has already knows everything there is to know about tobacco chemistry and extraction of alkaloids from it. It would be utterly foolish for them not to know. It's their thing and they have alot of resources.
They may not however have figured out the effects of vaping it. Lots of liability and regulations there. We may unwittingly be their guinea pigs.

Vaping is not quite 'combustion free'. Smoking is actually smouldering, though with much the same range of nasties produced. There is potential for additives and impurities to build up on the atomiser coil and ash there (thermal decomposition, not combustion per se). We know that happens. Plus some amount of thermal decomposition of VG (seems to me to happen when the coil is running dry). We pretty much know that happens too. Plus trapped airborne dust. Tiny amounts compared to smoking, but not zero.

PG is used in medical inhalers and apart from those report allergies to it, seems pretty innocuous (and may even be beneficial). As for VG, I wonder how well it is absorbed by the lungs; if not well it could build up there as it is extremely slow to evaporate.

~~~

On the VG thermal decomposition.

I sometimes vape pure undiluted VG and do not generally notice any pungent smells or bad tastes (at 3.6V). In normal use, diluted, the chance for decomposition drops dramatically. So in normal use the problem seems very minor.

The situation is different when the liquid is running low. What I think happens is this: the atomisr coil can reach far higher temperatures when it is dry (red hot); then when some liquid is pulled through the system and off the mesh to hit the atomiser coil, it (some of it) gets super-heated.
 
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slopes

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It's known that BT and BPharma are keeping their heads very much below the line when it comes to e-cigs. Of course, both parties are well aware of the revolutionary potential of the new device and the huge shift it is likely to place on their markets if it were to go 'mainstream'. Both parties are keeping very quiet and both are probably very active in supporting government drives to ban these devices... and finding good reason to do so, one of which may be 'dangerous' unregulated WTA use. The cynical amongst us may believe that these agencies are simply waiting for the first e-cigarette related death before unleashing the full power of their move to ban them.

When the ban happens it will be on the 'liberal' grounds that more time is required for full clinical research into these devices along with thorough testing of the make-up and effects of the juices used - with an ideal time period being two to five years before a report is made and another review of the law carried out. BT and BPh (working with BGovernment) hope that this period will put all the local small traders out of business and cause the chinese to lose interest in production. When the e-cigs are passed for safe use, several years down the line, BT and BPh will be 'machined up' and all ready to step into the vacuum, selling their own 'official' products at vastly higher prices, with a large slice for the tax man, and running massive advertising campaigns.
 
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i also wonder if there may be dual actions to the Harmala alkaloids:

1. potentiating the effect of Nicotine, so that less does more, for a longer time interval.

2. anihilating the desire for further psychoactive effects.

'anihilate is the wrong word; think satiation.

I think this was tried by one or two people some time ago. It is one of those things that could be dangerous if one miscalculates.

The harmala alkaloids might play a part in the whole that is smoking but they might turn out to be minor players.

That such an additive might achieve some satiation is likely but it is not going to be as good as working with the complete alkaloid spread that is found in tobacco, hence Wta.
 
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hi kinabaloo - is there a pinch of anything I can put into my Lime WTA to neutralise it? I'm happy with how it's turned out, but I'm a bit worried about the effects of the acid in the atty and especially it seeping down onto the battery connector and beyond (as juice tends to do).

Without a pH indicator one would not really know how much to add. And adding another compound would increase the total amunt of stuff there is to clogg up the metal mesh wicking and heater coil. Even with an automatic, the liquid cant easily reach the Lithium battery (unless the pressure pad is broken). The acid is likely pretty dilute in the end product
 

slopes

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Jul 19, 2009
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Without a pH indicator one would not really know how much to add. And adding another compound would increase the total amunt of stuff there is to clogg up the metal mesh wicking and heater coil. Even with an automatic, the liquid cant easily reach the Lithium battery (unless the pressure pad is broken). The acid is likely pretty dilute in the end product

OK. I'm finding that these WTA solutions work much better in my CE2 cartomizers than in my regular atties. The vapour production is way higher, and there are far fewer delicate mechanisms inside a CE2 for acidic liquids (and/or fine particulates) to clog up or do any damage to.
 
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OK. I'm finding that these WTA solutions work much better in my CE2 cartomizers than in my regular atties. The vapour production is way higher, and there are far fewer delicate mechanisms inside a CE2 for acidic liquids to clog up or do any damage to.

Out of curiosity, any hint of lime in the vape ?
 

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Nicotiana Alchemia
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On the fly, pH determination.

Without getting fancy, this is the stuff.

The pH resolution isn't quite as good as they would have you believe, but this is pretty good stuff all the same, and quite useful given the limitations of what they're attempting with one item.

You'll find similar out there, but my recommendation would be to not substitute... I can't vouch for anything else.
 
On the fly, pH determination.

Without getting fancy, this is the stuff.

The pH resolution isn't quite as good as they would have you believe, but this is pretty good stuff all the same, and quite useful given the limitations of what they're attempting with one item.

You'll find similar out there, but my recommendation would be to not substitute... I can't vouch for anything else.

"Fast, accurate, and easy to use, these pH test papers can be used in any pH experiment. Using four different indicators, the multi-colored pattern that results guarantees a high degree of precision.

The ColorpHast 0-14 universal pH strips can be used with colored or turbid solutions and are guaranteed not to add impurities or bleed into test samples.

Strips are bonded to a cellulose backing for easy use. Sensitivity is ±0.5 pH."​

Looks good.
 
Sorry to be a total noob but I've been vaping for 5 days and not a cig since. The only w/d symptom I've had is insomnia and a mental bit that knows I'm not getting an analog. I'm thinking about heading to the vitamin store now and getting some pf extract. How's it been working for you guys?

It was out of stock when i last visited. I take, when i remember, some stress reducers, such as niacin. Different mode (more complimentary than substitutional) but probably helpful.
 
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