I;m just trying to put a safety angle to it - trying to get an idea of what might be a safe thing to try and what would not.
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I;m just trying to put a safety angle to it - trying to get an idea of what might be a safe thing to try and what would not.
DVap - what do you suggest if someone posts about adding PF to e-liquid, just ignore it or try to give at least some considered guidance ?
I merely suggested that 1-3 drops / ml seems reasonable to me. PF extract is used by many many people and has been for a long long time. If one is sensible about dose then I don't think there is any significant danger.
We still don't have a handle on the citric acid effectiveness and there's no WTA for sale. 'That man' might be someone who continues to smoke and inadvertently causes a fire.
I'm with you on 'safety first' - but that's why I thought better to say something.
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Even vaping is a bit of a leap in the dark; but one i, and most here, consider to be relatively safe.
I merely suggested that 1-3 drops / ml seems reasonable to me. PF extract is used by many many people and has been for a long long time. If one is sensible about dose then I don't think there is any significant danger.
We still don't have a handle on the citric acid effectiveness and there's no WTA for sale. 'That man' might be someone who continues to smoke and inadvertently causes a fire.
I'm with you on 'safety first' - but that's why I thought better to say something.
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Even vaping is a bit of a leap in the dark; but one i, and most here, consider to be relatively safe.
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Ammended my post. I can sleep easier now 
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It's a bit of a cop-out, but then it is true that it is a bit of a side issue / footnote that hopefully we are passed now in that we know the WTA concept is good; but it's going nowhere fast
I kept the 1 drop / ml as a guidance; I am happy that is a useful guidance, while dis-recommended the experiment.
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It's a bit of a cop-out, but then it is true that it is a bit of a side issue / footnote that hopefully we are passed now in that we know the WTA concept is good; but it's going nowhere fast
I kept the 1 drop / ml as a guidance; I am happy that is a useful guidance, while dis-recommended the experiment.
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Hope we can be a bit more libertarian with DIY WTA though. This is important and should be public.
I might need to check my brakes more frequently, but the cat is out of the bag now.
I might need to check my brakes more frequently, but the cat is out of the bag now.
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That's why I proposed a thread focusing exclusively on WTAs (recipes, safety, do's and don'ts etc). All this other stuff is a distraction. OK, PF etc falls within the scope of this thread's original title... but I think it would be a good idea now to have a place to advance just WTA... so we can all learn, ask questions, make suggestions and get things right.
In essence I've made a deal - I'll not mention the alternative (which I always felt not so good of adding MAOIs; it's a matter of record) or even the MAOI 'theory' of mechanism; but DIY WTA should not get buried, and I fear now that it might (under the guise of 'safety').
It's not rocket science. The actives are alkaloids and can be isolated by their alkaline nature - switched from salt to freebase and back.
It's well over a year now since WTA was envisioned.
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1-Why not use vinegar (acetic acid) for acidification? Do you think it would make the vape solution taste bad? (maybe I'll try vaping some weak vinegar in VG one of these days
what do you all think of this? is it worth trying? haven't yet been able to find pure vita C.
My flawed chemistry says 'try it' as it is an inorganic acid. Try just a part of the oil to see what happens. If nothing much happens, you still have the oil.
kinabaloo - it's best if you begin a new thread focusing on DIY (Kitchen) WTA then. You know what you are talking about, whereas I'm just a layman looking for good advice (and, of course, you have been incredibly helpful in that respect
). If a new thread amounts to 'An idiot's guide to WTA', then I would represent the intelligent idiot... and you (and Dvap and tceight et al) would represent the intelligent guidance.
kinabaloo - it's best if you begin a new thread focusing on DIY (Kitchen) WTA then. You know what you are talking about, whereas I'm just a layman looking for good advice (and, of course, you have been incredibly helpful in that respect
The carbonate freebasing of the tobacco alkaloids and mineral oil take-up is established as effective, but the next step is not really well quantified (acid protonation of the freebase alkaloids in the oil to water soluble salts). But that may change soon (could change, if there is a will).
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I guess I will try it. (it is an organic acid btw). I found some vita C with only cellulose in it but don't want to mess around filtering it out.
Has there been any conclusion yet (or even guess) about wether is better to vape the base or acid forms of WTA? I'm thinking that adding base to a water solution might cause WTA's to precipitate or oil out thereby producing pure WTA which could then be dissolved in PG or VG.
I think we need to keep in mind the fundamental goal of producing an efficacious e-liquid such that vaping can produce the desired outcome. If efficacy were the only consideration, then it would be snus for everyone and we'd have done with the chemistry.
I believe that with many herbals, the evidence for efficacy (in whatever it's said to do) can be tenuous. We might consider traditional routes of administration -vs- atomization/inhalation. Just because something might work well in a capsule or as a tea doesn't mean that vaping it would be a good idea too. Maybe it would be, maybe not.
Perhaps our e-liquids should give us as much of "what works" from tobacco as we can get and as little of anything else as is practical. So, I guess I'm more comfortable with the idea taking the herbal tablets and brewing the herbal teas.. but not getting "too clever" with the e-liquids. A herbal that is traditionally taken in pill or tea form might behave differently if vaped. Two potential issues come to mind, 1) lung irritation, and 2) thermal stability. That herbal that brews nicely into a tea might do nasty things at atomizer temperature.
In answering questions from individuals who ask about adding "x" to an e-liquid, the first question might wisely be, "What do you think could be accomplished by this that couldn't be accomplished by a more traditional route of administration?" Just because something can be vaped, it doesn't follow that it should be vaped. I think an eye toward simplicity in e-liquid is a good thing to have. Of course, any well-known hazards or side-effects of various herbals should be fair-game for discussion.
So, in short, we need to ask folks if they couldn't more easily simply try a traditional administration route for herbal 'X', and provide any caveats/counter-indications that we might be aware of. This leaves room for herbals, and at the same time might help to minimize the potential of a problem caused by a vaped herbal.
If something really bad happened, it wouldn't be so much the herbal itself that got all the attention, it would be the fact that somebody used an e-cigarette in the process of causing self-harm.
If I could make the above flash on and off with a klaxon blaring, I would.. because that's how it would look in the headlines that would be sure to follow.
way back in the beginning before DVAP or anyone gave me some background 'education', I just took a stab at what seemed to make sense and it worked. The more I learned about the process, the more it shouldn't have worked.
If I knew then what I know now I wouldn't have even bothered trying any of this.
It's a fine balance.... fresh eyes on subject matter and no preconceived limitations that you can make these leaps, but knowing when you are stepping out of your league into something dangerous.
Thinking back on this, I believe that a concentrated acid may not actually be required, possibly because single protonation of the molecules may be all that is required.
Remember that my original method used bitartrate, and it did work. Path forward, see just how high a pH can be tolerated and still get good transfer.
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Check the record, I suggested PF as a supplement not as a vaping liquid additive.
By suggesting 1 drop / ml I am helping to avoid that headline; which would not actually be about normal e-cig use anyway.
Besides, the posts have already been changed, so what is your goal here ???
Maybe you are here to rubbish DIY WTA ...
By suggesting 1 drop / ml I am helping to avoid that headline; which would not actually be about normal e-cig use anyway.
Besides, the posts have already been changed, so what is your goal here ???
Maybe you are here to rubbish DIY WTA ...
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yes, and provide ample ammunition for some politician to make a name for themselves saving us from the dangers.
If they want to find a straw man, they will anyway... but lets not offer one up.
A guy turns up talking 'grams of harmalines are no big deal'. I put then straight - that they should be tinking microgams. And all you are silent. Then have the audacity to chastise me !
Where's the bigger danger - letting such posts pass or putting them straight? Where were you ??
It's a joke ! You did NOTHING to counter the talk of inadvisable experiments. You wre online then too.
Then later you turn with your big red font! So who are you really working for ??? Because a lot of people will see that while appearing to be a proponent, you are actually steering the task into a dead end. A standard infiltration procedure.
Where's the bigger danger - letting such posts pass or putting them straight? Where were you ??
It's a joke ! You did NOTHING to counter the talk of inadvisable experiments. You wre online then too.
Then later you turn with your big red font! So who are you really working for ??? Because a lot of people will see that while appearing to be a proponent, you are actually steering the task into a dead end. A standard infiltration procedure.
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wtf? I've said the same before kin..as have you, and several others on here.
Just because I may, or may not agree with you does not mean I disrespect your opinion. I would appreciate the same courtesy.
(btw, interpret WTF as 'whoa there friend') ;-)
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Gee kina. You sound a little angry. Don't desert us. I really value your viewpoints.
I didn't think that's what DVap meant (to kill wta), but just to be cautious as we practically can. Certainly didn't think anyone was chastising anyone.
Anyway, like you said the cat is out of the bag. The experiments WILL continue. I think good advice and cautions from the experts is a good idea.
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