Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kinabaloo]

All - I am sick of repeating the obvious - I did what I did to be cautious, while you did NOTHING !

So who was right ??

tceight - sorry but is not me that's taking you for a ride

maybe that poster wasn't even real - just a setup

BIG money at stake; no surprise to see derailment attempts

 

[kardenm]

I did what I did to be cautious[/B

That's what I got/heard. Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[kinabaloo]

Set up your own WTA thread and I'll stay out of it.

~~~

A bit odd in hindsight, two people tuen up after many months, on the same day with a similar topic. And I didnt know what best to do, Thought about it for some hours. Yes, I am furious with the posts by DVap and tceight. Furious. And it does make me wonder ...

 

[tescela]

If in the wings their WTA was not already awaiting launch, I would be totally stunned by the inconpetence.

Bear in mind that out of decades of enormous profits, Philip Morris only notable test-marketed product was the Accord. I've been in this harm reduction boat for a long, long time, so I owned an Accord. It was a joke.

In other words, don't underestimate their incompetence and/or lack of genuine commitment to harm reduction.

That said, we shouldn't lump all of the BT companies together indiscriminately, either. There have been some genuine efforts made by some other current or former cigarette companies (e.g., RJR's Eclipse, Star Scientific's cigarette brands).

Quite right I think. I'm essentially 100% sure that BT has already knows everything there is to know about tobacco chemistry and extraction of alkaloids from it. It would be utterly foolish for them not to know. It's their thing and they have alot of resources.
They may not however have figured out the effects of vaping it. Lots of liability and regulations there. We may unwittingly be their guinea pigs.

It's known that BT and BPharma are keeping their heads very much below the line when it comes to e-cigs. Of course, both parties are well aware of the revolutionary potential of the new device and the huge shift it is likely to place on their markets if it were to go 'mainstream'. Both parties are keeping very quiet and both are probably very active in supporting government drives to ban these devices... and finding good reason to do so, one of which may be 'dangerous' unregulated WTA use. The cynical amongst us may believe that these agencies are simply waiting for the first e-cigarette related death before unleashing the full power of their move to ban them.

When the ban happens it will be on the 'liberal' grounds that more time is required for full clinical research into these devices along with thorough testing of the make-up and effects of the juices used - with an ideal time period being two to five years before a report is made and another review of the law carried out. BT and BPh (working with BGovernment) hope that this period will put all the local small traders out of business and cause the chinese to lose interest in production. When the e-cigs are passed for safe use, several years down the line, BT and BPh will be 'machined up' and all ready to step into the vacuum, selling their own 'official' products at vastly higher prices, with a large slice for the tax man, and running massive advertising campaigns.

This is a scenario that has definitely been discussed.

i disagree with most of this. i don't think that BPharma has enough profit off Nicotine replacement products to warrant large infusions of cash into political pockets. i don't know the figures, but i can't imagine it is even near 1% of their profits.

Broaden your perspective a bit. If nicotine replacement were all it took, then this thread wouldn't exist. WTA is a threat to SO much more than just BP's NRT products. What percentage of BP profits are anti-depressant and/or anti-anxiety medications?

Also, govt can do what it wants, but it doesn't change anything. they can make many things illegal, but that doesn't stop anyone from making them or buying them. markets operate regardless of "statutes/regulations" (which isn't truly human/natural law, but that's another matter). i don't fear govt as much as i fear the ignorance of the general population. injustice doesn't occur at the hands of govt so much as it occurs at the hands of juries. people only fear the power of govt because they are ignorant of law/govt/authority. in the most simple terms, govt authority over people only exists as a collective force to merely do what any individual has a right to do. if i can't do something to you, and you can't do something to me, then govt has no legitimate right to do that thing to anyone either.

practically speaking, i think this is to a very large extent fear mongering, though i won't say 100% as i can see avenues for regulating e-liquids if the market grows and the formulations become more sophisticated. i do await the day when people acquire enough knowledge to begin to put the fear of people back into gov, because until then, we only live in tyranny. mala prohibita "crime" is really just a fraud put over on people because of their ignorance of the nature/origins of authority/law. not enough people question the origin of authority.

Amen to the comment you made that I bolded for emphasis. Laws only work if the masses comply. If they don't, then the law simply dies.

Obsessed? Not at all. I simply set my personal target to what is within my reach.

My opinion of the notion of a kitchen WTA process has evolved somewhat with time. A while back when Tceight was trying to get something off the ground, I didn't have a great deal of faith that it could be pulled off successfully, however, on the chance that it could be pulled off, I felt it was worthwhile to spend a little time discussing it privately with Tceight to perhaps help set him on the right track.

As Tceight has demonstrated some success, and others have followed his lead, I find myself very much in two minds. One happy to give advice and helpful hints as the opportunities present themselves, and the other worrying, "One of these guys could end up being "That Guy". The person who manages to bring together a mix of inexperience, carelessness, and bad luck into a perfect storm that results in something very bad happening.

Looking at tobacco alkaloids, and the relative harm of various means of getting them, the scale looks like (from most to least harmful):

Cigarettes -----> Kitchen WTA -----> Purified WTA

Snus/snuff falls somewhere on either side of purified WTA, but I'm not prepared to guess which is more or less harmful.

So, once demonstrated to have a degree of efficacy, kitchen WTA definitely has it's purpose. It does make me a touch nervous as anything we do (be it kitchen WTA or purified) may have unforeseen hazards, but the thing that really makes me uneasy isn't so much kitchen WTA, it's kitchen chemists.

So to anyone working on kitchen WTA either sharing their experience openly on this board, or quietly lurking and mixing away, please heed this word of advice:

Don't be "That Guy".

Your advice is sound. I'm obviously not too obsessed with perfection when choosing my words in some cases, so hopefully you give me the benefit of the doubt that my intent is not to insult.

Check the record, I suggested PF as a supplement not as a vaping liquid additive.

By suggesting 1 drop / ml I am helping to avoid that headline; which would not actually be about normal e-cig use anyway.

Besides, the posts have already been changed, so what is your goal here ???

Maybe you are here to rubbish DIY WTA ...

Sad to see you brainwashed tceight

But the cat is out of the bag now.

Did I miss something here?

 

[kardenm]

Has there been any conclusion yet (or even guess) about wether is better to vape the base or acid forms of WTA? I'm thinking that adding base to a water solution might cause WTA's to precipitate or oil out thereby producing pure WTA which could then be dissolved in PG or VG.

Anybody???

 

[DVap]

Kin, Something bad happened the last time you came at me with the conspiratorial/accusatory approach... I'd prefer to forget that occasion since I turned unpleasant on you with a rather direct post spelling out some things I would have preferred to keep quiet about on second thought.

That was not directed at you, though it was in the context of a reply to a post you made, it was an encouragement towards an abundance of caution for any and all, and a suggestion to keep our eyes on the ball. To brew the tea before we vape the tea, and to generally keep things simple.

I genuinely do worry about "overdoing" an e-liquid, and what I don't say (via omission), doesn't stand as any sort of tacit approval or disapproval. We are all responsible for ourselves... but in a sense we are also responsible to each-other since there are those out there who would love to have a headline.

It goes back to my being of "two minds"... one worried about kitchen chemistry, the other encouraging positive results. The truly frustrating aspect of this is that after more than a year, nobody at all has jumped on to the bandwagon from a commercial perspective, and that's really what we need to see happen for this to explode.

Your vision seems to be "Damn the torpedoes, full ahead, WTA! And that will get some good results, and perhaps some of them unexpected or unwanted.

We remain firmly on the same team, and we need to not forget that.

 

[kinabaloo]

I dont doubt they think a moment about harm reduction. It is a business and they think only of profits. And they will fight tooth and nail for the existing model, but one day they will switch when it suits them. That is obvious.

 

[tescela]

I think we need to keep in mind the fundamental goal of producing an efficacious e-liquid such that vaping can produce the desired outcome. If efficacy were the only consideration, then it would be snus for everyone and we'd have done with the chemistry.

I believe that with many herbals, the evidence for efficacy (in whatever it's said to do) can be tenuous. We might consider traditional routes of administration -vs- atomization/inhalation. Just because something might work well in a capsule or as a tea doesn't mean that vaping it would be a good idea too. Maybe it would be, maybe not.

Perhaps our e-liquids should give us as much of "what works" from tobacco as we can get and as little of anything else as is practical. So, I guess I'm more comfortable with the idea taking the herbal tablets and brewing the herbal teas.. but not getting "too clever" with the e-liquids. A herbal that is traditionally taken in pill or tea form might behave differently if vaped. Two potential issues come to mind, 1) lung irritation, and 2) thermal stability. That herbal that brews nicely into a tea might do nasty things at atomizer temperature.

In answering questions from individuals who ask about adding "x" to an e-liquid, the first question might wisely be, "What do you think could be accomplished by this that couldn't be accomplished by a more traditional route of administration?" Just because something can be vaped, it doesn't follow that it should be vaped. I think an eye toward simplicity in e-liquid is a good thing to have. Of course, any well-known hazards or side-effects of various herbals should be fair-game for discussion.

So, in short, we need to ask folks if they couldn't more easily simply try a traditional administration route for herbal 'X', and provide any caveats/counter-indications that we might be aware of. This leaves room for herbals, and at the same time might help to minimize the potential of a problem caused by a vaped herbal.

If something really bad happened, it wouldn't be so much the herbal itself that got all the attention, it would be the fact that somebody used an e-cigarette in the process of causing self-harm.

If I could make the above flash on and off with a klaxon blaring, I would.. because that's how it would look in the headlines that would be sure to follow.

A guy turns up talking 'grams of harmalines are no big deal'. I put then straight - that they should be tinking microgams. And all you are silent. Then have the audacity to chastise me !

Where's the bigger danger - letting such posts pass or putting them straight? Where were you ??

It's a joke ! You did NOTHING to counter the talk of inadvisable experiments. You wre online then too.

Then later you turn with your big red font! So who are you really working for ??? Because a lot of people will see that while appearing to be a proponent, you are actually steering the task into a dead end. A standard infiltration procedure.

wtf? I've said the same before kin..as have you, and several others on here.
Just because I may, or may not agree with you does not mean I disrespect your opinion. I would appreciate the same courtesy.

(btw, interpret WTF as 'whoa there friend') ;-)

Gee kina. You sound a little angry. Don't desert us. I really value your viewpoints.
I didn't think that's what DVap meant (to kill wta), but just to be cautious as we practically can. Certainly didn't think anyone was chastising anyone.

Anyway, like you said the cat is out of the bag. The experiments WILL continue. I think good advice and cautions from the experts is a good idea.

All - I am sick of repeating the obvious - I did what I did to be cautious, while you did NOTHING !

So who was right ??

tceight - sorry but is not me that's taking you for a ride

maybe that poster wasn't even real - just a setup

BIG money at stake; no surprise to see derailment attempts

That's what I got/heard. Sounds like a good idea to me.

Set up your own WTA thread and I'll stay out of it.

~~~

A bit odd in hindsight, two people tuen up after many months, on the same day with a similar topic. And I didnt know what best to do, Thought about it for some hours. Yes, I am furious with the posts by DVap and tceight. Furious. And it does make me wonder ...

kinabaloo: I might be wrong (it happens plenty), but I didn't interpret DVap (or anyone else's) posts to be intended as an attack directed at you.

You are upset at the moment. We all get upset sometimes...maybe because progress comes so slowly. I think my turn to be angry was just last week or something. Everybody cut me some slack at the time, I think.

Everybody else: please extend kinabaloo the same courtesy and cut him some slack. We all know that it is way too easy to for miscommunication to occur in written text form. It happens. We react. But this is a solid team we have here, and we take turns venting sometimes...and then we move forward.

 

[kinabaloo]

It goes back to my being of "two minds"... one worried about kitchen chemistry, the other encouraging positive results. The truly frustrating aspect of this is that after more than a year, nobody at all has jumped on to the bandwagon from a commercial perspective, and that's really what we need to see happen for this to explode.

That's why I can't understand your attack. I did the less of two evils, as I saw it. Nothing more, nothing less.

YOu don't think I was in two minds also?! Look at the time delay.

I'm thinking where the hell did that come from ?!

The expression 'think you know' was in fact what i wanted to say to the first poster about the Syrian Rue, but I didn't want to be rude.

As I have said before the DIY WTA is not important as a method per se, but as a leaver - that it could be done at home will sharpen commercial minds to the market and economy of scale ... That if people get used to making their own they might miss an opportunity

 

[tceight]

I guess I will try it. (it is an organic acid btw). I found some vita C with only cellulose in it but don't want to mess around filtering it out.

Has there been any conclusion yet (or even guess) about wether is better to vape the base or acid forms of WTA? I'm thinking that adding base to a water solution might cause WTA's to precipitate or oil out thereby producing pure WTA which could then be dissolved in PG or VG.

It is an interesting question, and there are whole threads on here that discuss this and the differences in pH of cigar smoke/cigarettes etc. on effectiveness. I don't believe there was a definitive conclusion made. Do a search on exogenesis name.
I did find a paper on something similar, showing the differences on aerosol drug uptake depending on their pH.
will see if I can find where I posted it.

 

[kardenm]

kinabaloo: I might be wrong (it happens plenty), but I didn't interpret DVap (or anyone else's) posts to be intended as an attack directed at you.

You are upset at the moment. We all get upset sometimes...maybe because progress comes so slowly. I think my turn to be angry was just last week or something. Everybody cut me some slack at the time, I think.

Everybody else: please extend kinabaloo the same courtesy and cut him some slack. We all know that it is way too easy to for miscommunication to occur in written text form. It happens. We react. But this is a solid team we have here, and we take turns venting sometimes...and then we move forward.

AMEN to that.

 

[kardenm]

It is an interesting question, and there are whole threads on here that discuss this and the differences in pH of cigar smoke/cigarettes etc. on effectiveness. I don't believe there was a definitive conclusion made. Do a search on exogenesis name.
I did find a paper on something similar, showing the differences on aerosol drug uptake depending on their pH.
will see if I can find where I posted it.

Thanks....

 

[kinabaloo]

...

I;m cool. [message too short]

~~~

One moment DVap is about to get into serious lab-style procedures, then berates me over a few drops of herbal tincture! It's not fair and I am only defending myself. One could play the same game - what if someone retained some mineral oil in the end product? What happens if a remnant of carbonate, or citric acid reacts with the metals in the e-cig, or when they are heated on the atomiser coil, ...
~~~

If one perosn;s life was in danger, I'd be agitated. Now multiply that by a few hundred million ... it's soooo frustrating; not just a number, a statistic for me

~~~

If you look closely at the new members forum, as I often do, you will notice many drop-outs if you pay close attention - the vaping success story is not that great a success as many here think. But it could be much better. Currently it's a 'miracle' for many (no doubt) but a minority when all is said and done (maybe 30% compared to 10% or so for NRTs - a great achievement, but much more to do

 

[tceight]

Kardenm
found it. it was actually a very important post at the time! changed direction completely to get to where we are now in the extraction method.

in looking at the various forms of alkaloids, I think I have been handcuffing myself by assuming the need for them to be in freebase form to be effective in the E-juice. I came to this assumption because there have been several posts and threads on the differences in pH as it affects nicotine absorption via either the mouth or the lungs.

Then I ran across a research article about cigar smoking, and how the pH of the smoke changes throughout the cigar from acid to alkaline, and how there was no apparent correlation in serum levels.

I've found several studies on various drugs and pH absorption differences and they generally are insignificant.
http://www.aapspharmscitech.org/articles/pt0701/pt070123/pt070123_figure2.jpg
here for example, is a graph for oxycodone shows only a slight difference in absorption between a pH of 4 and a pH of 9.

I think this common (mis)understanding originates from the notion of 'freebase' (alkaline) as it applies to illicit alkaloids, such as 'crack' is more intense than 'coc@ine' as a salt, and that somehow freebase drugs are better absorbed.

The difference is more readily and simply explained by the differences in the route of administration of the two forms, inhalation vs snorting.

in the case of Harmine, salt forms are preferential, as the salts are highly water soluble whereas the freebase form is only slightly water soluble.

 

[DVap]

There's a term I'm familiar with called "Easter-Egging". In Easter Egging, multiple parameters are changed at the same time.. such that the difference between now and next time isn't clearly identifiable.. Too much happening at the same time.

I'm starting to think that the acid treatment needs only worry about the pyrrolidine nitrogen, so mid level pH might be sufficient. Let's get this thing pinned down into standard format and play from there.

 

[kinabaloo]

With vaping one has to ask how the alkaloids, in either form, will transport from atomiser to body.

Freebase alkaloids often have high BPs - though these would be lowered by being part of a mixture. On the other hand, salts can't vaporise (save being thermally decomposed). So given that both seem to be effective in the vaping scenario it is clear that e-liquid constituents can be carried out of the atomiser to a high degree, presumably by being within droplets that are 'spat out' by vapor pressure of exanding liquids that do undergo actual vapiorisation (phase change).

I find this 'what actually happens in the atomiser' quite fascinating, and we only have oblique clues as yet.

~~~

If one thinks about the atomiser arrangement, the liquid is not ('slowly') heated by the atomiser coil, but rather lands on a pre-heated atomiser coil. Airflow pulls droplets from the metal mesh that extends (wicks) behing the coil.

 

[kinabaloo]

There's a term I'm familiar with called "Easter-Egging". In Easter Egging, multiple parameters are changed at the same time.. such that the difference between now and next time isn't clearly identifiable.. Too much happening at the same time.

I'm starting to think that the acid treatment needs only worry about the pyrrolidine nitrogen, so mid level pH might be sufficient. Let's get this thing pinned down into standard format and play from there.

As you mentioned before, single protonation requires only a mild acid (pH) [though from inverse standpoint, it's equally encouraging.]

So looking good. Proof of the pudding though is ...

 

[tceight]

I'm starting to think that the acid treatment needs only worry about the pyrrolidine nitrogen, so mid level pH might be sufficient. Let's get this thing pinned down into standard format and play from there.

was thinking the same.... thinking back to the bitartrate 'original' and that it worked.(very weak acid, I think it was at best pH3) Still, the efficiency may have come partly/mostly the sequential extraction efficiency.
use a strong acid, at pH4 as proof of effectiveness, and if that works, we prove the the solubility ratio (at least with mineral oil) is great enough at that pH.
then try a weak 'food grade' one such as citric/acetic/tartar etc.

 

[tceight]

I find this 'what actually happens in the atomiser' quite fascinating, and we only have oblique clues as yet.

~~~

If one thinks about the atomiser arrangement, the liquid is not heated by the atomiser, but rather lands on a heated atomiser coil. Airflow pulls droplets from the metal mesh that extends (wicks) behing the coil.

check out nucleate boiling. It's a long and heavily studied field due to it's importance in power plant operations.

 

[kinabaloo]

check out nucleate boiling. It's a long and heavily studied field due to it's importance in power plant operations.

Interesting but not the same scenario as in the atomiser the liquid volume is tiny wheras in a kettle for example the surrounding liquid is massive. But will look into it more when had a rest.