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Mostly ended up drinking whiskey with an old hiking buddy and getting rained on... kinda forgot to do any pondering on surgery...
Could be herniation, a spur, or both. A simple x-ray can usually spot a spur, and a less than normal interverabral space can suggest a herniation.
Well, I spent years in the habit of lying on my side with my head propped up on my hand to watch tv... so that's petty much certain to be the cause of whatever it is that aches now.
Good stuff, at least the non-menthol versions, have quite a bit of casings on it.
D&R's Three Sails is a brit style virginia gold in fine shag cut, with light or no casing (you can partially tell by the rapid pace at which it dries out- and by the lack of crud you cough up after smoking it). They have a number of interesting tobacco's, including 4 different periques from 4 different locales (blended w/ other leafs to mellow it of course)- just as an example.
But snus are already homogenized which usually makes things easier in plant extractions, which you already know
If the solubility of single protonated alkaloids is sufficient to get back about 80%+ from the oil, I think that is my preferred method as an easily available acid (citric for example) could be used, and not much of it.
If the recovery was over 90%+, I'd see if an additional cleanup would be worthwhile (or not really necessary).
As protonation extent varies with pH gradually, a better question might be at what pH can we get back 80% and 95%.
The key question is to what extent is single protonated nicotine water soluble ?
If the recovery was over 90%+, I'd see if an additional cleanup would be worthwhile (or not really necessary).
As protonation extent varies with pH gradually, a better question might be at what pH can we get back 80% and 95%.
The key question is to what extent is single protonated nicotine water soluble ?
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More people trying WTA... over in the DIY eLiquid thread, here's a link, linzeljp did a nice write up on his version.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/163352-wta-extraction-success.html
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/163352-wta-extraction-success.html
Good stuff, at least the non-menthol versions, have quite a bit of casings on it.
D&R's Three Sails is a brit style virginia gold in fine shag cut, with light or no casing (you can partially tell by the rapid pace at which it dries out- and by the lack of crud you cough up after smoking it). They have a number of interesting tobacco's, including 4 different periques from 4 different locales (blended w/ other leafs to mellow it of course)- just as an example.
But snus are already homogenized which usually makes things easier in plant extractions, which you already know
Thanks for the info. I'll see what I can find.
I wonder what kind of snus is most pure?
If just want a method to follow, go for 25g citric acid in 100 ml (pH 1.5).
This is a compromise between what is likely to be very effective, provide a decent alkaloid strength in the end-product (a matter of dilution) and not having too much excess citric acid in the end-product. This strength of acid solution should get somewhere around 98% of the alkaloids in the oil.
Tobacco/snus weight :: Minimum acidified water volume
20g :: 2ml
40g :: 4ml
100g :: 10ml
Based on 10 mg alklaoids / g (1%). If tobacco is higher in alkaloid content, scale up accordingly.
Probably also a good idea to wash the oil with distilled water first to remove any lingering carbonate solution.
Finally, dilute with 4x as much VG then blend with nornal e-liquid. Probably twice as much normal e-liquid as the WTA extract will be about right, but you might want to try less WTA at first (especially if you don;t smoke at all and don't use snus).
The alkaloid-only method of preparing WTA (true WTA) should be 2-3x stronger than that made by a simple distilled water soak (Virk's method, if you will); and have much less other stuff that might gum up the atomiser (almost nothing from the tobacco; just some extra citric acid).
The eraly steps of the method are described here : Simple guide to making WTA
But for the acid step, take note of this post rather than the older one.
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Thank you for the detailed review, BCB!
Your feedback is definite food for thought. At first glance, it appears that are very highly MAOI-dependent, but that maybe you are getting overstimulated by nicotine. Since you use snus, perhaps your vaping is driven primarily by a dependence on the "hand to mouth" action, as opposed to being heavily nicotine-dependent?
BCB, maybe you could test that concept by vaping the WTA eliquid periodically, and in between those times, vaping a very-low-nic eliquid for hand-to-mouth with a bit of throat hit?
tceight and DVap: would it be possible to get some of your WTA eliquid versions to BCB so she could do a comparison with Virk's?
Here's the post in the other thread...
I recall hearing a while back that they were banning smoking on U.S. Navy nuclear subs, and thinking that was more than a little insane.
linzeljp's account above of his experience is chilling...and encouraging. No one should have to suffer like that, but especially not someone that is serving their country in such a capacity.
This again underscores the fact that what is being done in this thread is both important and urgent.
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OK, here goes.
Added 450 mg of purified tobacco alkaloids into 10 mL of deionized water. Result, fully soluble, distinct alkaloid tint. Checked the pH with 0 - 14 pH strip, it looks to be in the 9 - 9.5 range (due to the basic nature of the alkaloids).
Shake with an equal volume of a non-water soluble solvent and wait for separation. The alkaloid color seems to have mostly migrated to the organic phase, but just a bit of color remains with the water since it's pH has dropped to perhaps 8'ish.
So I figure I have ~ 2.7 millimoles of alkaloids, so I figure ~ 2.7 millimoles of strong acid will neutralize the alkaloids. Add and shake... now the pH of the water layer is in the 5 - 6 range... good estimate on the millimoles. Looks like the alkaloids are in both phases. It's hard to say which is more, easiest to say there's some in each.
Overload with acid to drop the pH down below 2, and there all the color goes into the water phase... the organic is crystal clear.
Add some NaOH solution until the color starts to just show up in the organic phase again (mostly in the water) and check the pH. Looks to be pH 3.
Add some more NaOH solution, the color in the organic is much more noticeable, but still pretty distinct in the water. pH is around 4.5.
Add some more NaOH solution, organic phase is now darker than water phase, pH is 7'ish.
Overload with NaOH solution to pH 10.5 - 11, water layer goes clear (well, cloudy due to a bit of solvent in the water, but all the color is in the organic.
What does this suggest?
If you want to get the alkaloids exclusively into water, it'll take a pH below 2. Even a fairly acidic pH 3 starts to show a bit of alkaloid tint in the organic phase.
In the 8'ish range, there is a bit of color seen in the water phase, but most in the organic phase. It takes a pH above 10 or so to partition all the alkaloid color into the organic phase.
So the graph is pretty accurate and if you want to drive the alkaloids firmly to water, you'll need a pH < 2 and if you want to drive the alkaloids firmly to non-polar, you'll need a pH > 9 or 10.
Everything in between is in between. You could go to the 100% single protonation point at ~ pH 5.8, but be prepared to lose as much as you get. The magic numbers are probably pH 2 and pH 9.
Or look at it this way, consider pH 5.8 to be the point where the alkaloids are going to be 50:50 in each phase. Decreasing from pH 5.8 to pH 2, the alkaloids progressively head toward the water. Increasing from pH 5.8 - 9, the alkaloids progressively head toward the organic.
We can figure that non-protonated is fully organic soluble and double protonated is fully water soluble. Using the nicotine protonation graph, the 50:50 single/double protonated point at pH 3.1 or so probably gives 75% of the alkaloids in the water phase and 25% in the organic phase. The 50:50 single/non protonated point at around pH 7.9 probably gives 75% of the alkaloids in the organic phase and 25% of the alkaloids in the water phase.
These are all, of course, eyeball approximations based on color and fairly low resolution pH strips. If in doubt, less than pH 2 or greater than pH 9, anything in between, you're on your own in the land of approximations and estimates.
Dammit, now I gotta get these things back to pure.
Added 450 mg of purified tobacco alkaloids into 10 mL of deionized water. Result, fully soluble, distinct alkaloid tint. Checked the pH with 0 - 14 pH strip, it looks to be in the 9 - 9.5 range (due to the basic nature of the alkaloids).
Shake with an equal volume of a non-water soluble solvent and wait for separation. The alkaloid color seems to have mostly migrated to the organic phase, but just a bit of color remains with the water since it's pH has dropped to perhaps 8'ish.
So I figure I have ~ 2.7 millimoles of alkaloids, so I figure ~ 2.7 millimoles of strong acid will neutralize the alkaloids. Add and shake... now the pH of the water layer is in the 5 - 6 range... good estimate on the millimoles. Looks like the alkaloids are in both phases. It's hard to say which is more, easiest to say there's some in each.
Overload with acid to drop the pH down below 2, and there all the color goes into the water phase... the organic is crystal clear.
Add some NaOH solution until the color starts to just show up in the organic phase again (mostly in the water) and check the pH. Looks to be pH 3.
Add some more NaOH solution, the color in the organic is much more noticeable, but still pretty distinct in the water. pH is around 4.5.
Add some more NaOH solution, organic phase is now darker than water phase, pH is 7'ish.
Overload with NaOH solution to pH 10.5 - 11, water layer goes clear (well, cloudy due to a bit of solvent in the water, but all the color is in the organic.
What does this suggest?
If you want to get the alkaloids exclusively into water, it'll take a pH below 2. Even a fairly acidic pH 3 starts to show a bit of alkaloid tint in the organic phase.
In the 8'ish range, there is a bit of color seen in the water phase, but most in the organic phase. It takes a pH above 10 or so to partition all the alkaloid color into the organic phase.
So the graph is pretty accurate and if you want to drive the alkaloids firmly to water, you'll need a pH < 2 and if you want to drive the alkaloids firmly to non-polar, you'll need a pH > 9 or 10.
Everything in between is in between. You could go to the 100% single protonation point at ~ pH 5.8, but be prepared to lose as much as you get. The magic numbers are probably pH 2 and pH 9.
Or look at it this way, consider pH 5.8 to be the point where the alkaloids are going to be 50:50 in each phase. Decreasing from pH 5.8 to pH 2, the alkaloids progressively head toward the water. Increasing from pH 5.8 - 9, the alkaloids progressively head toward the organic.
We can figure that non-protonated is fully organic soluble and double protonated is fully water soluble. Using the nicotine protonation graph, the 50:50 single/double protonated point at pH 3.1 or so probably gives 75% of the alkaloids in the water phase and 25% in the organic phase. The 50:50 single/non protonated point at around pH 7.9 probably gives 75% of the alkaloids in the organic phase and 25% of the alkaloids in the water phase.
These are all, of course, eyeball approximations based on color and fairly low resolution pH strips. If in doubt, less than pH 2 or greater than pH 9, anything in between, you're on your own in the land of approximations and estimates.
Dammit, now I gotta get these things back to pure.
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Once I get the stuff I just used for solubility testing back to pure alkaloids, I could probably send 5 mL or so at 30 mg/mL. This is the industrial strength "lab version" that's made the folks who've gotten hold of it wave their hands in the air like they don't care...
DVap - thanks for the experimental work. In light of your results, I have changed my post here http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-more-effective-e-liquid-127.html#post2698753 from 10g/100ml to 5g/100ml (0.25M) citric acid powder in distilled water (pH 1.9)*. This sould get 95% of the alkaloids from the oil, and have little excess acid in the end-product (after dilution with VG; and citric acid is often added for 'bite' in flavored normal e-liquids after all).
So we have a workable, safe and effective method
~~~
edit : To attain a reasonable concentration of alkaloids in the end product necessitates we use 25g citric acid in 100 ml distilled water (pH 1.5).
So we have a workable, safe and effective method
~~~
edit : To attain a reasonable concentration of alkaloids in the end product necessitates we use 25g citric acid in 100 ml distilled water (pH 1.5).
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DVap - thanks for the experimental work. I have changed my post here http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-more-effective-e-liquid-127.html#post2698753 from 10g/100ml to 5g/100ml citric acid powder in distilled water (pH 1.9). This sould get 95% of the alkaloids from the oil, and have little excess acid in the end-product.
So we have a workable, safe and effective method
You need to make absolutely sure that there is sufficient acid to neutralize the nicotine to a fully protonated state.
Example:
You have 100 mg of nicotine in an oil. 100 mg of nicotine is [0.1g/162g/mole] * [1000 millimoles/mole] = 0.617 millimoles of nicotine. But since each nicotine molecule has TWO sites to protonate, it's going to take double the millimoles of acid or 1.234 millimoles of acid.
5g citric acid/100mL ~ 0.25 N (ignoring the 2nd and 3rd ionizations). 0.25 N is the same as 0.25 moles/liter or 0.25 millimoles/mL. To protonate 1.234 millimoles of nicotine with an acid that proves 0.25 millimoles H+/mL will require (AT LEAST) 1.234 millimoles / 0.25 millimoles/mL or 4.94 mL of acid solution.
Bottom line, there has to be enough acid present to do the job it's being paid to do.
I wonder if it would be more effective if the oil and acidic water is shaken together in a wide container - providing a large contact surface area between the two liquids as they separate? After the final shake, the liquids can be poured into a narrow container (whilst still in their emulsified state), for the easy removal of the acidic water part.
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This statement is a bit confusing. Perhaps it should read 'If you want to get the alkaloids exclusively into water...'
You need to make absolutely sure that there is sufficient acid to neutralize the nicotine to a fully protonated state.
Example:
You have 100 mg of nicotine in an oil. 100 mg of nicotine is [0.1g/162g/mole] * [1000 millimoles/mole] = 0.617 millimoles of nicotine. But since each nicotine molecule has TWO sites to protonate, it's going to take double the millimoles of acid or 1.234 millimoles of acid.
5g citric acid/100mL ~ 0.25 N (ignoring the 2nd and 3rd ionizations). 0.25 N is the same as 0.25 moles/liter or 0.25 millimoles/mL. To protonate 1.234 millimoles of nicotine with an acid that proves 0.25 millimoles H+/mL will require (AT LEAST) 1.234 millimoles / 0.25 millimoles/mL or 4.94 mL of acid solution.
Bottom line, there has to be enough acid present to do the job it's being paid to do.
Very good point.
I guess best simple way to ensure this is with a simple look up table, something like :
Using a 25g in 100ml acid solution, the minimum volume to use (which is also the best to give a reasonable potency at the end) is :
Tobacco/snus weight :: Minimum acidified water volume
20g :: 2ml
40g :: 4ml
100g :: 10ml
Based on 10 mg alklaoids / g (1%). If tobacco is higher in alkaloid content, scale up accordingly.
~~~
Probably also a good idea to wash the oil with distilled water first to remove any lingering carbonate solution.
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kinabaloo - are you saying that if 20g of tobacco is used (a medium sized pouch) then only 1ml of acidified water should be used at the oil stage? Surely it would be impossible to syringe such a tiny amount off?
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