Big Tobacco and E-Cigs... A Winning Combination

[Chicken Menudo]

So this post will probably ruffle some feathers but yes, I am excited that Big tobacco has entered the e-cigarette market.

First, I have nothing against Big Tobacco. I started smoking in the late 90's so people were well aware of the dangers of smoking. I know there are some members who started smoking when Big Tobacco was disingenuous at best regarding the addictiveness of smoking and the health risks. I understand why they hate Big Tobacco. I also didn't start smoking 'cause it was glamorous or cool, I started because I was going through difficult times and wanted to “take the edge off.” Most people just turn to drink but that was not an option. I'd rather be addicted to nicotine than alcohol.

So, on to the meat of my position. Big Tobacco has money, lots of it. They have the resources, capability, and drive to produce better products. I will always prefer a “Made in America” product vice a Chinese one so I'm really excited about the new Vuse. It may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread (haven't tried it) but it seems that R.J. Reynolds put some serious thought, time, and energy into this product. If it is a high-quality product and is successful, that's good news for all of us. Competition breeds improvement.

Big Tobacco's foray into the market also shines a light on a somewhat “underground” activity. vaping is starting to move from “online only” to brick and mortar establishments. I like that (as in BOTH online and, brick and mortar). I think that helps to:

A) “legitimize” the activity (not the best word but basically, if you can ONLY get it online, wouldn't you wonder why reputable stores don't sell it)
B) assist in quality control (reputable stores tend to avoid garbage products whereas on the internet it truly is caveat emptor)

Also, I think the industry is in need of some sort of regulation (VERY limited regulation). Don't get me wrong, I'm wholly opposed to banning e-cigarettes (I'm opposed to the government banning any product based on morality or under the guise of "Big Brother knows best"... hey, I'm a Libertarian/Constitutionalist) but I would like that e-cigarette manufactures be required to label what goes into their product (preferably a requirement that comes from the States and not the Fed). Before I get blown-up, I'm not saying that I want anyone to regulate how much nicotine can be allowed or that certain flavors be disallowed; really I just want to ensure that when I pick up a bottle of e-juice, it doesn't contain rat poison. Since I'm also a capitalist, I do have a certain amount of faith that consumers have the capability to regulate the industry without excessive government intrusion (e.g. food companies are now removing trans fat due to customer demand).

So, those are my “down and dirty” points on why I'm not going “Chicken Little” 'cause Big Tobacco has entered the e-cigarette market. Your thoughts?

 

[espkh123]

This can be good or bad.
This can help because Big Tobacco lobbyists can prevent the banning of ecig sales.
But this can also be used against us created the hoax that big tobacco is behind all ecigs giving us a bad reputation, a reputation we are working hard to purify.

 

[Rickajho]

How excited can you be? So far the only thing they have invested in is six year old cigalike technology and disposables that pretty much no one wants or no one stays with.

 

[chapeltown]

I have to say, CM, You make some excellent points.

Here's my take on the whole thing....

It is entirely possible that by big tobacco entering the market, that cost could be driven down, and availability of choices could shoot way up. It is also very possible that as you said, ecigs could become more mainstream with the help of the endorsement of bt. They have tons of money,but are losing hand over fist to vaping, and so it only makes sense that they would have an "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude to maintain solvency.

However.....

This is the caveat....
Big Government has been regulating Big Tobacco for *I believe* Longer than there has been acetone, rat poison, et al, in cigarettes. I don't think that gov't regulation is the way to go... Could just be me, but isn't one of the major tenets in Libertarian thought Leave us the Hell alone?!?! (in laymans' terms) Either the free market works, or it doesn't. Either we the people can practice self governance and be proactive in keeping e cig and eliquid company's feet to the fire to keep our products pure (it has worked for five years now, give or take), OR we need Big Brother to clean up our messes for us.

I have to tell you....I tried the e-cig back in 2009-2010, in what I would consider the extremely early days.... the products that I found were crap, and I didn't purchase again. In fact, I didn't try ecigs again until August of 2013, and I found that the quality of even the most basic "cig-a-like" was massively improved. This was not thanks to the almighty government, this was thanks to consumers demanding a better product. Why on earth would you insist that we need gov't intervention???

In the end....Do I think that big tobacco entering the scene could be a good thing? Simply based on capitalist thinking, yes, it could be a good thing. Do I think that Big Government regulation could keep us safe? Heck no. Every thing that Big <----operative word here Government touches gets screwed up.

 

[Randy C]

I guess we have to be careful what we ask for...

BT will always lie- given the opportunity.
I'm not so sure Chinese quality is inferior to most American Eliquid at this point

 

[Chicken Menudo]

I think there was some misunderstanding regarding some of my points which I will clarify below:

I am opposed to Federal regulation but would wholeheartedly support States enacting legislature requiring producers to label all ingredients on their products (this isn't limited to just e-juice). So, when I talk about regulation, it's very limited and done at the local level. Zero regulation can be dangerous but too much can be as well.

Also, I think the industry is in need of some sort of regulation (VERY limited regulation)... I would like that e-cigarette manufactures be required to label what goes into their product (preferably a requirement that comes from the States and not the Fed)... I [don't] want anyone to regulate how much nicotine can be allowed or that certain flavors be disallowed... I just want to ensure that when I pick up a bottle of e-juice, it doesn't contain rat poison...

chapeltown, you make an excellent example of how consumers (not the government) regulate/force QUALITY change upon an industry (whether that's by preferring one competitor over another or by refusing to purchase a sub-standard product) and I completely agree with you.

I have to tell you....I tried the e-cig back in 2009-2010, in what I would consider the extremely early days.... the products that I found were crap, and I didn't purchase again. In fact, I didn't try ecigs again until August of 2013, and I found that the quality of even the most basic "cig-a-like" was massively improved. This was not thanks to the almighty government, this was thanks to consumers demanding a better product.

.

I do have a certain amount of faith that consumers have the capability to regulate the industry without excessive government intrusion...

 

[Chicken Menudo]

Randy C, I'm hesitant to trust the Chinese when it comes to consuming their products (e.g. 2008 Chinese milk scandal). That is a true "buyer beware" country.

 

[chapeltown]

You are absolutely correct Chicken Menudo...

I needed to re-read your post a couple of times, but my opinion still stands, even as I was not trying to counter yours per se, just explain how it works in my head.

The thing is....I have rarely seen local regulation not eventually become fed regulation. Anything you can do, I can do better is the mantra of the feds towards the states. And while I am not opposed to states making sure that the businesses within that state hold to a high standard....don't we already have OSHA regulations that cover most of that already?

In my mind, it comes down to two things when it comes to Gov't involvement....

One.......With interstate sales, it is nearly impossible for the states to handle regulation alone without the feds saying they need to cover certain things so that everything is the same across the board. Education was a local issue for a hundred years.....now we are getting "common core" from the feds.....for the exact same reason.

Two.........Have you EVER seen we the people give the gov't an inch (regulate sales to minors, etc..) and NOT seen them take a mile? (ban smoking in buildings, then on properties then everywhere)

I hope I am wrong on that....but I haven't seen too much evidence from our past that says so.

 

[Baditude]

Big Tobacco's advertising budget will help spread the awareness of e-cigarettes to the general public and possibly get some smoker's feet in the door to try them to quit smoking.

However, don't think for a minute that Big Tobacco is on OUR SIDE.

It's very interesting that Big Tobacco has come out publically supporting the Deeming Regulations of the FDA.

Big Tobacco is presently attempting to quietly buy out the liquid nicotine producers in order to monopolize the e-cig trade; these are the suppliers that our favorite e-liquid vendors depend upon for their nicotine to put in the bottled e-liquid favors which we currently use.

Big Tobacco is using their influence upon the FDA to restrict the sale of e-liquid to the general public; they want nicotine to be sold only in tamper proof cartridges like the current Blu e-cigarettes use (this allegedly makes them "child proof"). They also want the same restrictions on flavors as cigarettes have (no candy, desert, or fruit flavors - these are too "tempting for children to try them").

If these restrictions come to pass, it will severely affect the e-cigarette trade and put most e-cig vendors out of business. All that you will have available would be e-cigarettes like Blu and EJoy. Flavored e-liquid with nicotine in bottles like most of us use will no longer be available. This would give Big Tobacco an unfair advantage and create a monopoly in their favor.

Sure you can make your own pg/vg e-liquid and add some flavoring agents, but liquid nicotine in bottled form will be banned. US Customs will stop all imports of liquid nicotine coming into the country like Canada and other countries do.


If you are not a member of CASAA, please sign up now. They are our only advocate to keep e-cigarette usage anywhere near like we now have. Their strength is in the number of members that they represent. The more members they have, the stronger is their voice. It's free to join, click the link in my sig.



The FDA is allegedly going to hold open hearings in early February on the regulation of e-cigarettes. The time to become politically active by showing your support is NOW. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/legislation-news/512709-fda-hold-listening-session-feb-6-seattle-deeming-other-tobacco-regs-public-invited-comment.html

http://casaa.org/deeming_regulations.html

CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...op-fda-giving-e-cig-industry-big-tobacco.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/legislation-news/505283-godshall-goes-white-house-congress-urging-them-not-let-fda-give-e-cig-industry-big-tobacco.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/legislation-news/505265-philip-morris-international-announces-support-i-e-lobbying-fda-deeming-other-e-cig-regs.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/legislation-news/496878-njoy-hires-big-pharma-regulatory-affairs-director-big-pharma-researcher-preparation-fda-e-cig-regs.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/legislation-news/485627-gao-report-criticizes-fda-center-tobacco-products-se-application-backlog-exposes-how-deeming-reg-would-decimate-e-cig-industry.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/legislation-news/483729-altria-letter-fda-endorses-deeming-other-regs-e-cigs-cigars-otp-increase-altrias-sales-expense-competitors.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/legislation-news/448896-altria-now-indicates-support-fda-regulation-e-cigs-fails-acknowledge-deeming-reg-would-ban-all-e-cigs.html

 

[Chicken Menudo]

chapeltown,

The Commerce Clause (U.S. Constitution, Art. 1, §8, cl. 3.) is a... hmmm how do I finish this sentence without profanity? Honestly, our bigger problem has nothing to do with vaping, it's the Federal government but... THAT is for a different forum (hence why I'm a Libertarian/Constitutionalist).

I do get your "local regulation becomes federal regulation." Pretty much anything out of California tends to bite the rest of the U.S. in our collective... dang it! Well, you get the picture.

Of note, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is for workplace safety. They don't actually regulate consumer products. You're probably thinking about the Better Business Bureau (BBB) which, doesn't actually hold any meaningful power (that or each individual state's local chamber of commerce). Problem is, internet companies have a way of skirting around those rules/regulations (e.g. Amazon and its efforts to avoid collecting local sales tax). I'm not stating that Federal regulation is the way to go ('cause it most definitely ain't), just that the online marketplace introduces "challenges" and is very much a "buyer beware" domain.

-----

Baditude,

Interesting and compelling points. Not to sound like a "Doubting Thomas" but do you have any links about Big Tobacco's efforts to buy up liquid nicotine venders (should be public information). The pressuring of FDA would be harder to prove due to the back-door politics of lobbying but, I wouldn't be surprised; all corporations (even the "nice" ones) aren't really so nice.

 

[dnutz]

Check out the video review of the Vuse done by VapinGreek. I agree with him that BT wants this product to supplement smoking. They don't want people to switch to PVs. The Vuse is a horrible product and not effective. Ask yourself why companies with such resources can't make a product that would put a DNA 30 to shame? Because they don't want to. Don't trust BT and their self serving agenda. They want regulation to get rid of all the advanced PVs and juice that we use now so that only crappy products like the Vuse are the only thing available.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Baditude]

chapeltown,
Baditude,

Interesting and compelling points. Not to sound like a "Doubting Thomas" but do you have any links about Big Tobacco's efforts to buy up liquid nicotine venders (should be public information). The pressuring of FDA would be harder to prove due to the back-door politics of lobbying but, I wouldn't be surprised; all corporations (even the "nice" ones) aren't really so nice.

I know that one of the more popular e-liquid suppliers (one that won a lot of awards in the Best Flavors Poll) had to find a new nicotine liquid supplier because the one that he had previously used would no longer sell to him at a competitive price; it had been bought out by a Big Tobacco manufacturer. No links as this is not necessarily public knowledge.

 

[espkh123]

Big Tobacco's advertising budget will help spread the awareness of e-cigarettes to the general public and possibly get some smoker's feet in the door to try them to quit smoking. However, don't think for a minute that Big Tobacco is on OUR SIDE.

Big Tobacco is presently attempting to quietly buy out the liquid nicotine producers in order to monopolize the e-cig trade; these are the suppliers that our favorite e-liquid vendors depend upon for their nicotine to put in the bottled e-liquid which we currently use.

Big Tobacco is using their influence upon the FDA to restrict the sale of e-liquid to the general public; they want nicotine to be sold only in tamper proof cartridges like the current Blu e-cigarettes use (this allegedly makes them "child proof"). They also want the same restrictions on flavors as cigarettes have (no candy, desert, or fruit flavors - these are too "tempting for children to try them").

If these restrictions come to pass, it will severely affect the e-cigarette trade and put most e-cig vendors out of business. All that you will have available would be e-cigarettes like Blu and EJoy. Flavored e-liquid with nicotine in bottles like most of us use will no longer be available. This would give Big Tobacco an unfair advantage and create a monopoly in their favor.

Sure you can make your own pg/vg e-liquid and add some flavoring agents, but liquid nicotine in bottled form will be banned. US Customs will stop all imports of liquid nicotine coming into the country like Canada and other countries do.


If you are not a member of CASAA, please sign up now. They are our only advocate to keep e-cigarette usage anywhere near like we now have. Their strength is in the number of members that they represent. The more members they have, the stronger is their voice. It's free to join, click the link in my sig.

The FDA is allegedly going to hold open hearings in early February on the regulation of e-cigarettes. The time to become politically active by showing your support is NOW.

CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...op-fda-giving-e-cig-industry-big-tobacco.html

How long would nicotine last in a bottle for DIY?
If worst came to worse and that actually did happen, I would have to stock up on A LOT of it.

 

[Robino1]

How long would nicotine last in a bottle for DIY?
If worst came to worse and that actually did happen, I would have to stock up on A LOT of it.

If sealed properly, you can put it your freezer and will last for a couple of years (or more?). You should be able to find information on proper storage in the DIY section of the forum. People have already been stockpiling. Every time there is a scare.

 

[Baditude]

How long would nicotine last in a bottle for DIY?
If worst came to worse and that actually did happen, I would have to stock up on A LOT of it.

No idea. Typically e-liquids are considered to have a shelf life of 1 year. Some people have been stocking up and storing concentrated nicotine liquid in their freezers since before last April when the FDA was supposed to regulate e-cigarettes.

Of course, this is only a temporary solution. Eventually those supplies are going to run out.

 

[molimelight]

I think there was some misunderstanding regarding some of my points which I will clarify below:

I don't think I misunderstood a thing. You seem to like what you think big tobacco brings to the table. You see vaping almost as an alternative lifestyle thing and feel like many people misunderstand it. You want BT to come along and use their slick advertising to move vaping from the margins to the mainstream.

Two things here. One, I work with criminals for a living, many of them are sociopaths. They have absolutely no conscience and are only interested in one thing. Their own profit and well being. They would victimize you, your grandma, and your kids in a heartbeat if it meant advancing their self aggrandizement. Now take that description and apply it to the corporate heads of BT. They are one and the same. They may have nice suits, Harvard educations, and a white bread family life but they are exactly the same. You really want to get in bed with these guys? Might as well call in the Mexican drug cartels as far as I'm concerned. Make no mistake, job one at BT is addiction. Go back and look at the testimony of the "Seven Dwarfs" of BT before congress.

Two, one of the first things that will be restricted with E-Cigs is advertising. No way is the FDA going to allow the advertisement of any nicotine product unless it is a medically approved treatment for tobacco cessation. And that gets into a whole other ball game, one which Big Pharma controls. Another group of sociopaths.

I am opposed to Federal regulation but would wholeheartedly support States enacting legislature requiring producers to label all ingredients on their products (this isn't limited to just e-juice). So, when I talk about regulation, it's very limited and done at the local level. Zero regulation can be dangerous but too much can be as well.

Absolutely never going to happen. The reason you don't see full disclosure of ingredients in many products is due to patent protection. Dr. Pepper is not going to list their ingredients so that others can copy it. If an ingredient has not been shown to be harmful there is no imperative to list it.

chapeltown, you make an excellent example of how consumers (not the government) regulate/force QUALITY change upon an industry (whether that's by preferring one competitor over another or by refusing to purchase a sub-standard product) and I completely agree with you.

I've never understood this willful naivete and blindness to history regarding regulation that libertarians and "constitutionalists" have. Sure, let the free market reign and everything will be alright. Do exploding Pintos mean anything to you? How about the Triangle Shirt Factory fire? In 1909, before any meaningful mine safety regulation was enacted, there were 3,242 deaths in mining accidents. Corporate history is fraught with examples of the criminal behavior of business when allowed to operate with no controls. Do you really believe that BT would not advertise to kids if allowed free reign? Go watch "The Insider." It's a really good movie and it's absolutely realistic in terms of what these corporations will do to remain profitable. There is no minimal or local control that will stop that kind of behavior. That's akin to putting unarmed mall cops out in the worst neighborhoods.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd like to see regulation to keep BT out of any tobacco alternative and let them die the slow agonizing death they have sentenced so many to over the years.

 

[Jarbs]

the more people who try cig-alikes and dislike them are one google search away from finding us.

 

[dead not sleeping]

The one thing that always happens when government gets involved is they tax. Thats the only thing they do extremely well. Remember, big business are in the politicians back pockets and vice-versa, they are one in the same. At the moment they just tax the tobacco. As soon as big business starts losing money, and they are, and the tax revenue goes down, and it is, get ready for regulation and taxes on nicotine. Wait until that 120 ml bottle of nic costs you $90 - $100 bucks, $75 - $85 of it tax. Look what happened to that $1.35 pack of cigs - $9 - $10 a pack. They said they had to tax tobacco due to the health costs associated with smoking. They don't give a rats behind about the health costs, that tax money did not go to health costs, just other worthless govt programs. Get govt involved ????? Bad, bad, bad idea. I see the safety and declaration aspects of your post, and that would be good, but in the big picture - bad, bad, bad idea.

dns

 

[crxess]

Short and simple:

B&M was/is the natural Next step evolution of Vaping. No different than evolving clothing store markets that started as Sears Catalog orders.
Vaping is and should remain exclusively independent of the Tobacco industry. They are an opposing force and the benefits are single sided.
It is ALWAYS the intent of large corporations, Tobacco or otherwise to Crush or Absorb other business in the hunt for larger market shares and PROFIT. This rarely helps anyone other than the Company and its stock holders.

While some attempt to glamorize Government actions in controlling Tobacco through high Settlement Fines, I question the logic in continually Taking the Tax Payers Money on BOTH ENDS and giving little to nothing in return. Tobacco Taxes are raised and the Purchaser Pays, Fines are levied and the Purchaser Pays. Meanwhile Government makes money and Tobacco companies make money.

I agree with restricting sales to minors
I laugh at ingredient exposure - What is really in that particular bottle/box/can/bag? Where did that Finger/mouse tail/roach, etc. come from?
Disclosure and Truth are 2 different animals. Like locks, they help keep honest people honest and lazy criminals look for easier targets.

So much for short,
Sorry

 

[NicoHolic]

Pay VERY careful attention to what Batitude and molimelight have to say about BT. I like this, "Make no mistake, job one at BT is addiction." It doesn't matter to them how many carcinogenic compounds they have to use to achieve it.

That's what will be in their "safe for the kids," sealed, non-refillable, pre-filled cartomizers that are electronically keyed to only work with their own brand of battery (digital VUSE) and vice versa. They're not only out to eliminate competition from "poisonous" bottled nicotine and associated delivery devices, they're also out to lock you into their high-profit cigalike batteries and eliminate "mods." Don't plan on using your ProVari, much less your carto tanks, with their encrypted key cartomizers/cartridges.

They have the most extensive logistics/distribution chain in the world already in place and are out to eliminate mail-order/internet sales of e-cigarettes, allegedly to keep them out of the hands of children, but in reality to maintain top to bottom control.

There may be some small benefits to BT being involved in e-cigarettes, but the end result is a bad one for vapers.