Box Elder Nic

[swedishfish]

Thank you for posting that Kabonk.

The whole thing is really unfortunate.

 

[CountryCarol]

This is my opinion here only but I don't think Kurt would do that. Granted I do not know him, but he went through specific steps to prove the validity in the claim.

Now with that said I do hope there is proof that the nic was actually purchased through BE. To cover all ends hopefully the ones that had their nic tested provided Kurt with a copy of some kind of proof the nic was purchased originally from BE.

 

[Horse9]

rts says that they welcome and want testing on their nic......hope this is who you bought from....

No, I ordered from Innovapor and I am still waiting for an email with more detailed assurances of purity and accuracy.

Returning the product seems a bit drastic, but it is about 75 bucks and just being told 'our chemist has tested it and it's good' seems a bit less than professional level. Hopefully I will hear more from them soon.

One way or another juice vendors are going to need to step-up their game and find a way to provide solid product assurances.

 

[mlinky]

I am not happy with Box Elder's response. It is still basically a denial and a slam at Kurt. I would feel much more comfortable if they thanked Kurt for pointing out a potential problem, recalled the subject lots, and performed testing and tried to identify what happened.

I think that the related companies are Honeyville and Gourmet Vapor

 

[oldsoldier]

They also own another juice company- the name always escapes me.

Honeyville. WHOIS and the registries contain a wealth of information if you dig around

 

[Hyppy]

It seems that a few of the "reputable" juice vendors are clamming up about who they buy their nicotine from. It saddens me that I won't be able to get any more juice from Ms Ts :-(

 

[Cool_Breeze]

...I guess I'll be changing vendors RTS seems to have good prices

In addition to good prices, RTS's nicotine comes from tobacco grown in North Carolina.

 

[RIMP]

Do we have a list of where specific vendors get their base nic from?

 

[mlinky]

In addition to good prices, RTS's nicotine comes from tobacco grown in North Carolina.

But it is processed in China?

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Quoted from the RTSVapes.com site...

"All of RTS Vapes' nicotine liquid originates from flue-cured tobacco grown in North Carolina. For your information, North Carolina produces more flue-cured tobacco than any other state in the United States. With our unemployment rate near 10% in North Carolina we decided to try a United States solution to inconsistent Chinese nicotine liquid.

"The tobacco leafs are handpicked by North Carolinians. The tobacco leaves are delivered to a North Carolina laboratory for nicotine extraction. We are proud to state all of our tests have shown from 99.22% to 99.93% pure nicotine.

"Our pure nicotine liquid is then reduced by North Carolinians to less potent strengths using Propylene Glycol USP Grade or Vegetable Glycerin USP Grade.

"When you buy flavorless nicotine liquid from RTS Vapes, a Division of RTS Leasing, LLC, you are buying a product USA made."

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Do we have a list of where specific vendors get their base nic from?

Rimp,
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the world's supply of pure nic (99.4% pure that is)comes from China, no matter where the actual plants are grown...

 

[MikeE3]

It seems that a few of the "reputable" juice vendors are clamming up about who they buy their nicotine from. It saddens me that I won't be able to get any more juice from Ms Ts :-(

Do you have information that Ms Ts gets their nic from BE? I haven't seen that anywhere else yet.

 

[kabonk]

I would think that larger vendors would test their nic base before they mix it maybe not some of these smaller vendors that mixes juice in there kitchen though they should anybody that sells juice should have some kind of QA in place

 

[HzG8rGrl]

Do you have information that Ms Ts gets their nic from BE? I haven't seen that anywhere else yet.

She stated that she does not get her Nic from BE.

 

[sidetrack]

well I just got this email from boxelder:

Hello Everyone,
Due to recent independent titration analyses we have decided to reveal our own internal methods of testing and quality control as well as our own independent analysis of liquids that have been diluted before they have arrived at our distribution facility. As I have stated before, we dilute pure nicotine down to just over 10% strength before it arrives at our distribution facility. At that point we have an independent GC/MS done to give us an accurate reading of the product ingredients and strengths. The diluted product comes in at about 11 to 13% in strength. We then we do a final adjustment to bring the product to an actual 10% strength. The reason for this is "if the product were to come in weaker than the target 10%", we would have no way of increasing the strength due to the fact that we only work with 10% strength or lower in the distribution facility.
We admit that mistakes could be made in labeling which could result in a product labeled as 48 mg/ml strength and actually be 100 mg/ml. Even a mistake like this could be dangerous and if we have made this type of mistake then all we could do is offer our humblest apologies and / or a replacement product. A product that is testing at at 272 mg/ml and labeled at 100 mg/ml is more than dangerous, it could be deadly. In all of our analyses (internal or independent) over the last two years we have never received a diluted batch for testing that was over 14%. We test every diluted batch and we will now post the latest independent tests online every time a new batch is run.
For clarity we will label each independent test that will match a lot number on every bottle that goes out.
Furthermore on some occasions we may run out of nicotine during a big sale at which point we may use products from other US vendors. Due to this we will also be posting random independent tests on other US vendors as well.
Please look for our current independent GC/MS reports at http://www.boxelderchemicalsupply.com/110811pgtest.pdf
With that being said, we feel that this issue is starting to appear more like a smear campaign against our company and less like a valid scientific exploration of the products we all use and vape. We appreciate the support from all of our customers and assure you all that we are extremely confident in our own internal safety procedures as well as the credibility of our independent testing labs and the quality of US vendors that we may utilize from time to time. So confident that I am willing to sign my name to this message and not hide behind an obscure username on a forum or the posting of a forum user that has never returned to respond to an original post.
Due to the fact that an unscrupulous company or individual could easily take our labeled product and increase or decrease the strength in an effort to disparage our hard earned name and reputation, we will be converting to a tamper resistant bottle for all of our nicotine products and we will only be responding to forum posted tests from credible laboratory testing facilities that will verify that they received what appears to be an un-opened un-tampered bottle of our product. We will not be responding to chemistry students who possibly are on the correct and intelligent path towards testing a given substance but who may also be unknowingly party to the destruction of one company for the benefit of another.

We realize that there are many issues associated with this business and we want to do our part to provide a new level of transparency to this whole industry.

Sincerely,


Brad Bacher

Good Lord, where do I begin in reply to this email.....
A. If every batch was tested as you said then why would there be any discrepancy higher or lower than the stated mg per ml?
B. Why are you substituting another vendors nic without letting the buyer know?
C. How is a buyer to know if he/she has "questionable" nic if he/she doesn't open and inspect it first?
D.Are you acussing the testers of lying or just being inept?Why do you assume the testers results are invalid? Are you infering that only a chemist's has the ability to get an accurate result?

This could have been handled soooo differently. The defensive posture is not serving you well at this point. A little humble pie couldn't hurt. If I am not mistaken the reason you didn't address this in the beginning was that you were hunting? Most businesses I know of have an emergency number where someone from the company can be reached. Are you the only one in your company? Sorry to say but I think just from what I have read in the forum your business has already taken a hit and your "spin control" isn't working. Just a humble suggestion..don't blame the victim it didn't work for Dr. Murray's defense team either............Vapers tend to be a pretty forgiving group unless you are disingenuous with them. No one was seriously injured and I am glad to see you are trying to be more transparent(?) but what the vapeing community really needs is ...sorry to say and don't shoot the messenger over this one......regulation and more safety standards...... I wish the whole community could do it on their own but am not sure that will happen before someone gets hurt. (as I step down off my soapbox.)

 

[GoodDog]

BTW Kurt, the Chemist that he refers to as a student, actually has a PhD in Chemistry, has worked in the field for over 30 years and teaches chemistry at a university.

 

[mostlyclassics]

There is a nicotine test kit you can buy on ebay. It's not going to be super accurate, but it will let you know if your liquid is in the right ball park.

PG VG Nicotine Test Kit Bromothymol Blue .12N Sulfuric Acid | eBay

The kit is $16 + $3 shipping. You can perform about 50 tests with it, which pencils out to 38 cents per test. Once you have the full kit, you can get a refill of the consumables for $8.50 + $2.75 shipping. Tests done with the refill pencil out to 23 cents per test.

If you're DIYing, that's mighty cheap insurance. And, since it only needs 1 ml. of e-liquid to test, it's still mighty cheap insurance if you're buying pre-flavored e-liquid.

 

[oldsoldier]

BTW Kurt, the Chemist that he refers to as a student, actually has a PhD in Chemistry, has worked in the field for over 30 years and teaches chemistry at a university.

I think they'll be saying next "Those who can't, teach" ...

 

[Hyppy]

Do you have information that Ms Ts gets their nic from BE? I haven't seen that anywhere else yet.

BE has many outlets besides just the BE name, and all we have from some vendors is something like "it's secret, but it's not BE"

 

[Kurt]

I think they'll be saying next "Those who can't, teach" ...

I teach and I do. For those that are wondering, and I'm not trying to brag, but Gooddog is right. I encourage all new members to visit my thread "Houston, we have a problem" in the DIY forum.

I think given the gravity of this situation, credentials are required. I have a PhD in theoretical chemical physics, a masters in computational chemistry, and a masters in experimental organic chemistry. I got my BS 30 years ago, and have been teaching at the college level ever since: general, organic, physical, biochem, neurochem. I am a published researcher at a major University, not just peer-reviewed papers, but also chapters in books. In some ways what Brad said was correct: a chemistry student could do these tests. In fact, in my chemistry courses the students do this very titration curve analysis on various weak acids and bases. Yes, an 18 year old college chemistry student could do it, as could a high school AP chemistry student.

So why doesn't he? I will say that if he doesn't he will get left behind. Many vendors are approaching me to either consult for these tests, or to be trained to do them themselves. And now more interest is being put into more detailed analysis, like with GC-MS. Talked to a very respected vendor tonight on the phone about this very thing.

So my message to new members who are very frightened right now: things ARE changing, and for the better. Soon this which is scaring us so badly will be sent to the waste bin of time, as vendors are VERY MUCH wanting to have accuracy and transparency. If you have BE, Gourmet Vapor, Honeyville, or any other liquid and you think it is not right, too strong, not strong enough, PM me. I am running tests for free for the time being for ECF members. I understand new members are not likely to have 100 mg liquid for mixing, but I wanted to make the offer, since this thread came up here.