"But what about the children Klaus? Do you not care about the children?"

[klaus_engel]

(I know this is a subject that's been covered too many times, but I need to get this crap out of my system.)


As a Vapor I follow a lot of news cause it affects me, my friends, and my job. Every day I hear about a politician on a personal crusade to ban the evil that's electronic cigarettes. The most common reason they say in their defense is either, "We don't know anything about them." or, "We must protect our children from cigarettes or anything like them." On the outside I just nod and listen patiently (cause common courtesy told me so). However in my brain I'm purple in the face screaming some of the meanest things I can imagine.

They (the politicians, doesn't matter if red or blue left or right doesn't matter) say that they don't know anything, therefor it's deadly. First off, everyone (I politely assume) knows there has been research done on E-cigs since the last decade, and they didn't find anything (deadly rather). So them saying this means they are ignorant and they don't google or have the gumption to get one of their staff to do it. Ignorance is just as dangerous as a loaded gun in my opinion and I'm surprised people still pay their taxes to these people.

"But what about the children?" imaginary voice is saying in my head. "If there are no smoking alternatives then the children are safe from EVIIIILLLLL!". Okay, sorry, but if you think little Timmy or little Tory are not going to try anything cause it's expensive or illegal, I have not done enough drugs to truly understand how stupid you are (if you the reader is a parent I'm not referring to you, I'm sure you have a neighbor that comes to mind when you read that statement).

Personal Vaporizers are the only method that worked for me to quit, and for thousands they have a story similar with the same outcome. The V2 or njoy style didn't do it, drugs or patches didn't do it, my SVD and my ego did. It may be that the tobacco companies are freaking out cause their analogs are obsolete and vaping is here to stay. Who knows. I just know that my teeth can't handle more grinding when someone tells me I'm going to die as fast using my K100 or my VTR. "Just smile and nod..." I would remind myself.

Sorry for the venting folks, I needed to get it out of my system and my wife has already heard it from me X_X. Thanks for your patience ^_^

 

[Jarbs]

"But the children!" is the argument used when you have no actual argument. And the claims of "we don't know if they're safe" is the argument of someone too lazy to use google.

 

[klaus_engel]

Oh I know. Cause the Fun Police have to show up with a BS reason to keep people from being happy. "You're having fun?! THIS STOPS NOW!! You're welcome, go back to being miserable and getting cancer."

 

[Amraann]

I love your post

I think that I need to vent about the "what about the children" argument too!
What about them? Does anyone really think that "children" can be stopped from trying things? If so, I have a 7 mile bridge to sell you in the Fl Keys.
The majority of us here started smoking well under the age of 18. My mother, who smoked, knew it and sometimes bought them for me.
The entire argument about "vaping will harm the children" is just so ridiculous that I have to question the brain cells of those saying it.
I would prefer that no one have any addiction. But then I think of the history of the world and UMMM it seems to me there has always been some addiction going on.
E-cigs so far IMO seem to be the least of them.

 

[doghair]

Easy, tell young people it's safe, legal and old cool people think it's cool, they will avoid it like the plague.

 

[skoony]

you see its all about the money.
if it was the children they would make the law state any child caught buying selling or possessing
cigarettes,e-cigs,drugs,or alcohol is a criminal offence.then go out and arrest and prosecute these
little law breakers.
but no,lets have compliance checks and fine the over worked store clerk and or thier employer.
there are places where they use modeling agencies that specialize in kids that look close to thirty
but are under 18.
yep enough money to go around even for our overtaxed law enforcement.
it all depends on what they perceive is our ignorance.
most elected officials at the state or federal level send there kids to private schools
where they are taught critical thinking skills.
these courses have been pretty much weeded out of the public school sector.
it has never been about the children.it has always and will be about the money.

regards
mike

 

[Fulgurant]

Easy, tell young people it's safe, legal and old cool people think it's cool, they will avoid it like the plague.

Perhaps ironically, you could even call it "The Plague," and young people would expend less effort to avoid it than they would if you told them it's perfectly safe.

 

[klaus_engel]

Skoony I completely agree with you, however I'm too sober to have the rest of that conversation =P But yeah it's all BS, and we see it, know it, and they know we see it. Great thing we have a strong community!

 

[irwink]

(I know this is a subject that's been covered too many times, but I need to get this crap out of my system.)


As a Vapor I follow a lot of news cause it affects me, my friends, and my job. Every day I hear about a politician on a personal crusade to ban the evil that's electronic cigarettes. The most common reason they say in their defense is either, "We don't know anything about them." or, "We must protect our children from cigarettes or anything like them." On the outside I just nod and listen patiently (cause common courtesy told me so). However in my brain I'm purple in the face screaming some of the meanest things I can imagine.

They (the politicians, doesn't matter if red or blue left or right doesn't matter) say that they don't know anything, therefor it's deadly. First off, everyone (I politely assume) knows there has been research done on E-cigs since the last decade, and they didn't find anything (deadly rather). So them saying this means they are ignorant and they don't google or have the gumption to get one of their staff to do it. Ignorance is just as dangerous as a loaded gun in my opinion and I'm surprised people still pay their taxes to these people.

"But what about the children?" imaginary voice is saying in my head. "If there are no smoking alternatives then the children are safe from EVIIIILLLLL!". Okay, sorry, but if you think little Timmy or little Tory are not going to try anything cause it's expensive or illegal, I have not done enough drugs to truly understand how stupid you are (if you the reader is a parent I'm not referring to you, I'm sure you have a neighbor that comes to mind when you read that statement).

Personal Vaporizers are the only method that worked for me to quit, and for thousands they have a story similar with the same outcome. The V2 or Njoy style didn't do it, drugs or patches didn't do it, my SVD and my ego did. It may be that the tobacco companies are freaking out cause their analogs are obsolete and vaping is here to stay. Who knows. I just know that my teeth can't handle more grinding when someone tells me I'm going to die as fast using my K100 or my VTR. "Just smile and nod..." I would remind myself.

Sorry for the venting folks, I needed to get it out of my system and my wife has already heard it from me X_X. Thanks for your patience ^_^

The politicians in the US, left and right, are bought and paid for puppets. Paid for by the benefactors that fund their campaigns and their all consuming desire to stay in office until they drop dead. The US electorate is not blameless. We let this happen because too many of us are ignorant, complacent and too used to our comforts to contemplate having to get off our collective asses and do what it takes to regain control of what was once OUR government.

 

[Anjaffm]

Excellent posting, Klaus!
You hit the nail right on the head.

/edit:
@irwink:
So did you! (And this is true not only for the US. Says this person from Europe)

 

[Miira]

I actually understand the "save the children" argument. They fear that normalizing vaping will increase the number of new nicotine addicts, when it has been in decline for decades. However, I don't think that justifies leaving the smokers to die off.

 

[stylemaster2001]

Yeah and the excuse to ban online poker was...."we don't want people spending all their bill-paying money "gambling", imagine the hardship that would cause so many families"......but, you didn't see them stop people from spending all their welfare checks on lottery tickets and scratch-offs, did you????

It is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY folks!

 

[macaroni]

10 characters

 

[Bramble]

Hey Klaus...

http
://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/03/law_banning_e-cigarette_saleas.html

I may or may not have commented that vapers don't WANT their kids hanging the shops getting us in trouble.

 

[VapieDan]

(I know this is a subject that's been covered too many times, but I need to get this crap out of my system.)


As a Vapor I follow a lot of news cause it affects me, my friends, and my job. Every day I hear about a politician on a personal crusade to ban the evil that's electronic cigarettes. The most common reason they say in their defense is either, "We don't know anything about them." or, "We must protect our children from cigarettes or anything like them." On the outside I just nod and listen patiently (cause common courtesy told me so). However in my brain I'm purple in the face screaming some of the meanest things I can imagine.

They (the politicians, doesn't matter if red or blue left or right doesn't matter) say that they don't know anything, therefor it's deadly. First off, everyone (I politely assume) knows there has been research done on E-cigs since the last decade, and they didn't find anything (deadly rather). So them saying this means they are ignorant and they don't google or have the gumption to get one of their staff to do it. Ignorance is just as dangerous as a loaded gun in my opinion and I'm surprised people still pay their taxes to these people.

"But what about the children?" imaginary voice is saying in my head. "If there are no smoking alternatives then the children are safe from EVIIIILLLLL!". Okay, sorry, but if you think little Timmy or little Tory are not going to try anything cause it's expensive or illegal, I have not done enough drugs to truly understand how stupid you are (if you the reader is a parent I'm not referring to you, I'm sure you have a neighbor that comes to mind when you read that statement).

Personal Vaporizers are the only method that worked for me to quit, and for thousands they have a story similar with the same outcome. The V2 or Njoy style didn't do it, drugs or patches didn't do it, my SVD and my ego did. It may be that the tobacco companies are freaking out cause their analogs are obsolete and vaping is here to stay. Who knows. I just know that my teeth can't handle more grinding when someone tells me I'm going to die as fast using my K100 or my VTR. "Just smile and nod..." I would remind myself.

Sorry for the venting folks, I needed to get it out of my system and my wife has already heard it from me X_X. Thanks for your patience ^_^

It may in fact indicate the increased use of ecig by minors may be causing a drop in tobacco cig usage just as with adults. Perhaps they should be available and encouraged for use by minors that would get tobacco cigarettes anyway. After all electronic cigarettes are the gateway to tobacco cigarette avoidance.

 

[Fulgurant]

I actually understand the "save the children" argument. They fear that normalizing vaping will increase the number of new nicotine addicts, when it has been in decline for decades. However, I don't think that justifies leaving the smokers to die off.

Except that there's no compelling evidence to suggest that a so-called nicotine addiction is an intrinsically bad thing. People like to throw that word around, "addiction," as if it were an unassailable indictment, when in reality there isn't even a clear, scientific definition for it. Is it an addiction if the behavior doesn't harm the user in any obvious or even measurable way? If so, then isn't any constantly repeated behavior -- to include purely beneficial behaviors -- also an addiction? And if any behavior that people repeatedly engage in because it's beneficial falls under your definition of addiction, then why is stopping addiction an end in itself?

The bottom line is that you must judge the worthiness of behaviors on a case-by-case basis -- and by the way, if you wish to judge behaviors responsibly and in good faith, then you must also understand that there's more to life than longevity; that is, people define their well-being by a whole host of different factors, of which long-term physiological* health is only one, and probably not even close to the most important when you really get down to brass tacks. Guarantee a young man an extra year on this earth, and he'll most likely thank you -- but if, in return, you must take away his ability as a legal adult to choose for himself how to live, then he'll likely spit in your face instead.

(* - I use the phrase, "physiological health," because apparently the public health industry couldn't care less about risky behaviors undertaken by fitness nuts, or undertaken in the pursuit of fitness. While we're on the subject of fitness, and to echo a previous point, most people don't pursue fitness purely because they want to enjoy a few more years of old age. They work out because they want to look sexy, or because they enjoy physical activity, or yes, in some cases, because their exercise of choice carries an adrenaline rush -- like, say, rock climbing.)

More to the point, one must always balance the well-being of individuals against the collective good (or what passes for the collective good based on the political scare tactic du jour). It is not my problem that children might eventually take up vaping. Even if you could demonstrate beyond doubt that a significant number of those children never would have smoked (which you cannot do), the only response you're likely to get from me is a giant shrug. New people might take up a recreational habit that is very unlikely to hurt them in either the short or long term. Heaven forfend!

Why should my ability to vape be restricted or impeded just so someone else's kids might have a slightly harder time obtaining PVs? Enforce the minimum age laws, and let the parents handle the rest. Unless I'm to be given a share in all of the sex that went into making the kids, politicians should content themselves with collecting my outrageously high property taxes. Or set about to prove, using real science, that vaping represents a clear and significant danger.

 

[eebant]

After all electronic cigarettes are the gateway to tobacco cigarette avoidance.

Exactly!!!

 

[jmur]

Here's a novel idea. ENFORCE THE CURRENT LAWS! I'm 62 years old and when I was still smoking last year I still got carded in various supermarkets and drugstores when I bought analogs. Same with liquor purchases. It never bothered me, I understood the reasoning. I know the owning corporations had to protect themselves from lawsuits over selling to a minor. So even someone like me, looking as old as sin, gets carded. That's fine. So I fail to see why we need to create MORE law over PVs. The only obvious reason is clear, and that's a greed fueled grab to tap into this hugely growing industry. I'm quire saddened that more people/voters just don't see it for what it is.

 

[eebant]

Yeah, definitely enforce the current laws. Don't make new ones.

More laws? More police to enforce the laws.
More police? More taxes to pay for them.

I lived in NY for 50 years. I know how this works...Got taxed out of the state with RIDICULOUS laws for the ever so righteous ones.

 

[Bramble]

[...]

Why should my ability to vape be restricted or impeded just so someone else's kids might have a slightly harder time obtaining PVs? Enforce the minimum age laws, and let the parents handle the rest. Unless I'm to be given a share in all of the sex that went into making the kids, politicians should content themselves with collecting my outrageously high property taxes. Or set about to prove, using real science, that vaping represents a clear and significant danger.

It never occurred to me when my kids were teens that I should ask the government to make it harder for my kids to "get their hands on" things they knew they weren't allowed to have. I often wonder if it's parents asking for this now, given the fact that some of the kids getting caught with eCigs got them knowingly from their parents. I'm pretty sure these kids were already smoking and the parents made an executive decision. They should be allowed to do that.

If it is the parents calling for all these laws, I want to bounce that ball back to them and say, "Your move, mom and dad. The world is full of things that are right and wrong and it's your job to teach them the difference." And I really hope they have done that before their kid is a teen.