California has fallen

[DrMA]

The California vaping industry lobbying tactic of throwing smokers under the bus while begging for vape shop exemptions from indoor vaping bans produced predictable results

California's smoking age raised from 18 to 21 under bills signed by Gov. Brown

 

[Lessifer]

The California vaping industry lobbying tactic of throwing smokers under the bus while begging for vape shop exemptions from indoor vaping bans produced predictable results

California's smoking age raised from 18 to 21 under bills signed by Gov. Brown

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't remember anything specifically throwing smokers under the bus. I for one opposed all of the bills, in their entirety

Not that I'm part of the industry

 

[zoiDman]

The California vaping industry lobbying tactic of throwing smokers under the bus while begging for vape shop exemptions from indoor vaping bans produced predictable results

California's smoking age raised from 18 to 21 under bills signed by Gov. Brown

So How Exactly did California Vaping Industries lobbying tactics Throw Smokers Under the Bus?

 

[ImThatGuy]

This sucks...




...for the ones who aren't 21 yet...

 

[DrMA]

So How Exactly did California Vaping Industries lobbying tactics Throw Smokers Under the Bus?

They refused to oppose any of the anti-smoker bills. They lobbied only against SBx2-5 (classifying vaping as tobacco), but not against the 21+ bill, or the tobacco tax bills. Industry testimonies in Sacramento were focused on begging for vape shop exemptions.

Read this thread to see the "strategy"


Here's how it should've been done:
Nottinghamshire, Beacon of Fear

Please note particularly this paragraph
"We regard the Council’s actions as inappropriate with regards to smoking but we are particularly concerned by the inclusion of vaping and e-cigarettes in the ban."

 

[Lessifer]

SoCal SFATA refused to oppose any of the anti-smoker bills. They lobbied only against SBx2-5 (classifying vaping as tobacco), but not against the 21+ bill, or the tobacco tax bills. Industry testimonies in Sacramento were focused on begging for vape shop exemptions.

Here's how it should've been done:
Nottinghamshire, Beacon of Fear

Please note particularly this paragraph
"We regard the Council’s actions as inappropriate with regards to smoking but we are particularly concerned by the inclusion of vaping and e-cigarettes in the ban."

Much of the advocacy has been focused on only fighting what some consider to be "unreasonable" regulations. They're all unreasonable IMO, without proof of harm. As for the smoking bills, they should have been opposed for two reasons, one, because none of them achieve their "intended" purpose; two, because once vaping is classified as tobacco they'll apply to vaping as well.

 

[DrMA]

Exactly. I couldn't believe the industry failed to see that whatever abuse was dished at smokers was coming for vapers in short order.

And yet...

 

[bobwho77]

The ANTZ have tied vaping, and smoking together in their propaganda war. We HAVE to fight for each other.
I forget who said it, but the quote is appropriate...

"We must hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."

BTW I was less than a month from my 18th birthday when my state raised the drinking age from 18 to 21. I was already drinking at the time, and it didn't even slow me down. It was a PITA but it didn't stop me, or anyone else I knew.

 

[zoiDman]

They refused to oppose any of the anti-smoker bills. They lobbied only against SBx2-5 (classifying vaping as tobacco), but not against the 21+ bill, or the tobacco tax bills. Industry testimonies in Sacramento were focused on begging for vape shop exemptions.

...

I am Glad you Edited you Post. Because your Original Post was Incorrect. Perhaps now you can Clarify who the "they" are who Refused to Oppose CA SBX2-7.

 

[Lessifer]

It's always been about "reasonable compromise" with our side, I hope people are understanding what compromise from one side of the argument gets you.

 

[zoiDman]

It's always been about "reasonable compromise" with our side, I hope people are understanding what compromise from one side of the argument gets you.

I think you need to go Look at the Voting Record for the CA Legislation that has recently been Passed.

And then Ask Yourself how much Anything amount of Fighting, Lobbying, Compromising/Non-Compromising would have effected the Passages of these Bills? Coupled with a Sitting Governor who was the one who Called for the Special Sessions.

Say'n that "Reasonable Compromise" doesn't work by sighting a state like California is not Very Valid.

Reasonable Compromise tends to work when the is Not a Disproportional amount of Law Makers who are willing to Vote along Party Lines. And where there is the Realistic Option for a Veto from a Governor or a President.

 

[Lessifer]

I think you need to go Look at the Voting Record for the CA Legislation that has recently been Passed.

And then Ask Yourself how much Anything amount of Fighting, Lobbying, Compromising/Non-Compromising would have effected the Passages of these Bills? Coupled with a Sitting Governor who was the one who Called for the Special Sessions.

Say'n that "Reasonable Compromise" doesn't work by sighting a state like California is not Very Valid.

Reasonable Compromise tends to work when the is Not a Disproportional amount of Law Makers who are willing to Vote along Party Lines. And where there is the Realistic Option for a Veto from a Governor or a President.

I actually do understand that, but it's not as if we didn't have that information up front. If we knew they wouldn't accept age restrictions, and indoor vaping bans excluding vape shops, why push for that? Why not fight it all, in an all out war, call out the politicians who speak out against vaping, challenge them in public, protest not just outside the capital on vote days.

I'm not blaming any of the advocacy groups for what has happened, we needed/need to do more.

 

[zoiDman]

I actually do understand that, but it's not as if we didn't have that information up front. If we knew they wouldn't accept age restrictions, and indoor vaping bans excluding vape shops, why push for that? Why not fight it all, in an all out war, call out the politicians who speak out against vaping, challenge them in public, protest not just outside the capital on vote days.

I'm not blaming any of the advocacy groups for what has happened, we needed/need to do more.

Because sometimes throwing Money/Resources into a Non-Winnable Legislative Battle is just waste of Precious Resources.

Individuals can Fight for Anything and Everything they Chose. But I would Rather put my Time (and Money) into something like a Legal Challenge of the 21+ Age limit for "Tobacco Products" in California.

Which I believe has a Possibility of having a Successful Outcome.

 

[Lessifer]

Because sometimes throwing Money/Resources into a Non-Winnable Legislative Battle is just waste of Precious Resources.

Individuals can Fight for Anything and Everything they Chose. But I would Rather put my Time (and Money) into something like a Legal Challenge of the 21+ Age limit for "Tobacco Products" in California.

Which I believe has a Possibility of having a Successful Outcome.

That has been the approach this whole time, what has it gotten us?

 

[zoiDman]

That has been the approach this whole time, what has it gotten us?

Using that argument is like saying if we had just Fought FDA "Deeming" harder it wouldn't have happened.

Hey don't get me Wrong. I'd love to Fight Everything. And I would love to have a Unlimited Supply of Money and Manpower to do it.

But Let's Get Real. We Don't have Either.

 

[Lessifer]

Using that argument is like saying if we had just Fought FDA "Deeming" harder it wouldn't have happened.

Hey don't get me Wrong. I'd love to Fight Everything. And I would love to have a Unlimited Supply of Money and Manpower to do it.

But Let's Get Real. We Don't have Either.

No, we don't, I'm only suggesting maybe we should reevaluate the strategy?

I'm still pushing for support of HR 2058. I've also tweeted to Bernie to find out his opinion of all this, with the nudge of "Hey, want to possibly get a few million supporters?"

 

[zoiDman]

No, we don't, I'm only suggesting maybe we should reevaluate the strategy?

I'm still pushing for support of HR 2058. I've also tweeted to Bernie to find out his opinion of all this, with the nudge of "Hey, want to possibly get a few million supporters?"

And do What?

Try to get your Reps to push for No Age Restrictions on Nicotine? Or to Oppose something like CRP? There are some things that are Just Not Winnable in Todays Society/Political System.

 

[Lessifer]

And do What?

Try to get your Reps to push for No Age Restrictions on Nicotine? Or to Oppose something like CRP? There are some things that are Just Not Winnable in Todays Society/Political System.

How about reject the deeming in its entirety as a gross overstep of regulatory authority, due to a lack of proof of harm?

Just spit balling.

I don't really see a win here. Even if HR2058 passes, they can still regulate existing products out with compliance issues. I'm trying not to give up, it's not easy.

 

[zoiDman]

How about reject the deeming in its entirety as a gross overstep of regulatory authority, due to a lack of proof of harm?

...

Hey that's Great. But you Can't even get 50% of the Vaper's here to think that has a Snow Balls chance in Hell of Happening. Heck, you said yourself that that Isn't going to Happen.

I'm not Bagging on you Lessifer. I know you just want to have e-Cigarettes be Left Along. I do To. But there comes a Time when we kinda have to be Realistic about what is going on Around Us.

 

[Lessifer]

Hey that's Great. But you Can't even get 50% of the Vaper's here to think that has a Snow Balls chance in Hell of Happening. Heck, you said yourself that that Isn't going to Happen.

I'm not Bagging on you Lessifer. I know you just want to have e-Cigarettes be Left Along. I do To. But there comes a Time when we kinda have to be Realistic about what is going on Around Us.

Ok, let's get real, we're not likely to get anything done outside of the courts. Even if HR 2058 passes, it will be a temporary and incomplete reprieve. We need well funded legal recourse. How do we get people involved in that, how do we keep momentum going?

I can't even get 50% of vapers here to agree that vaping actually IS relatively safe.