Calling BS on dual coils!

[Myk]

You've tried that on 7.4V? I said that the 2Ω coil would be different.


So do I. It's a matter of having half the number of wicks and lower airflow.


But they have different wicking and airflow.

Right. A 28ga coil of the same resistance will have more turns or larger diameter. The two have different wicking and airflow.

Experimenting with parallel coils is easy; just use the same voltage. But experimenting with series coils is much harder because we don't have mods that can vary the voltage over the required range. Added to which, series coils need a different geometry in the atomiser. You can't lay them out like parallel coils in an RDA or you will have a long lead between them. They should work, but it would be a challenge to get them to work without mods and atomisers built with them in mind. I think that the best use of them will be to adapt sub-ohm microcoils in RBAs for use with VV/VW mods. Using them in RDAs will change the airflow too much.

There's an advantage to series coils that may make it worth the hard work of investigating them: they don't make batteries vent.

Tried what on 7.4v? Are you going back to 4Ω of wire because I use 2Ω@3.7v? I cut the number from a 1Ω dual to a .5Ω dual so your doubling voltage would be easier to put to the test. .5Ω dual vs 2Ω single, same voltage = same vape..
I don't know how you do it but my voltage is not directly proportionate where I can figure up my volts per ohms and then use that equation to figure out what voltage I would use at every resistance thereafter, let alone simply saying double the resistance = double the voltage.

It's also a matter of heating fewer coils at the same time. My guess is the a single coil will heat from the center. 2 coils in series will each heat from the center. My guess it would take some NR wire. I really don't see an advantage to series.

Different wicking and airflow is part of it.
So is the mass of the coil and mass of the wick. Different surface areas is another part of it. The way the coil is wrapped is part of it. The makeup of the wire is part of it. This is why it's not as easy as saying this is equal to that just based on ohms and volts.

 

[sawtoothscream]

OMG I hate building duals on the nimbus, such a pain in the .... compared to the trident. Just had to rebuild my brothers. His dumb ... friend drilled out the holes HUGE at least 4 mm each. this thing sucks balls now

.6 ohms dual micros , nice clouds, taste is kinda weak do to the monster holes. not worth it. want to rebuild his igo L with a .7 single micro and it would be much much better

 

[certus11]

OMG I hate building duals on the nimbus, such a pain in the .... compared to the trident. Just had to rebuild my brothers. His dumb ... friend drilled out the holes HUGE at least 4 mm each. this thing sucks balls now

.6 ohms dual micros , nice clouds, taste is kinda weak do to the monster holes. not worth it. want to rebuild his igo L with a .7 single micro and it would be much much better

electrical tape

Sent From Vape Heaven

 

[rurwin]

Tried what on 7.4v? Are you going back to 4Ω of wire because I use 2Ω@3.7v? I cut the number from a 1Ω dual to a .5Ω dual so your doubling voltage would be easier to put to the test. .5Ω dual vs 2Ω single, same voltage = same vape..
I don't know how you do it but my voltage is not directly proportionate where I can figure up my volts per ohms and then use that equation to figure out what voltage I would use at every resistance thereafter, let alone simply saying double the resistance = double the voltage.

It's volts squared per ohm.

If you have two 1Ω coils, you can feed them in series or in parallel. If you feed them in parallel then the current is split between them and the voltage is the same on each, so you need the same voltage and twice the current of one alone. If you feed them in series then the current is the same in each but the voltage is split between them, so you need twice the voltage but the same current of one alone.

So if you want to try series coils, you need to double the voltage. So have you tried your two 1Ω coils in series at 7.4V?

The advantage of series is that it takes multiple coils out of the low-ohm area. You don't need a 0.2Ω build to blow clouds.

 

[sawtoothscream]

electrical tape

Sent From Vape Heaven

for? to plug the holes?

he is going to try and tried for his friends trident. kid never uses it and loved his huge hole nimbus.

 

[rurwin]

Here's a worked example.

I have 0.2mm Kanthal. I started with 12Ω worth of it and twisted it, so that's 3Ω.
Then I wrapped it in a figure of eight around a pair of 1.5mm copper wires with four turns.
Dry burned and squashed, wicked with two pieces of cotton.
Final resistance: 1.8Ω
Vaping at maximum on an SVD with one battery, so that's around 5V. Plenty of vapour and flavour, maybe could do with a bit more power.

Not pretty, but it works.

ETA: 5.5V with two batteries in the SVD. Nice warm vape, plenty of vapour and flavour.

 

[Myk]

It's volts squared per ohm.

If you have two 1Ω coils, you can feed them in series or in parallel. If you feed them in parallel then the current is split between them and the voltage is the same on each, so you need the same voltage and twice the current of one alone. If you feed them in series then the current is the same in each but the voltage is split between them, so you need twice the voltage but the same current of one alone.

So if you want to try series coils, you need to double the voltage. So have you tried your two 1Ω coils in series at 7.4V?

The advantage of series is that it takes multiple coils out of the low-ohm area. You don't need a 0.2Ω build to blow clouds.

Series is essentially the same as making one long coil. So yes my 2Ω coils are like 1Ω coils in series. And no, 7.4v would burn liquid so I haven't used 7.4v and don't plan on it. I know this because I rarely go above 4.2v.
It's like I said, electrical theory is nice but it ignores everything else that is going on, like your complicated coil. If it was all about the by the book math those complicated coils would be meaningless. It mainly ignores the human taste factor.
You're talking like you can control the amps, you can't, so "needing twice the current" is a non-issue. You get that by increasing voltage (or lowering ohms but since we're talking the same coil that isn't allowed in this conversation).

My .9Ω dual, vapes and tastes good at 3v. Is pretty responsive a 3.6v. Very responsive at 4.2v. Flavor washed out at 5.0v. Burnt at 6.0v (although that's beyond the 5a limit on an SVD it's still changing, it did instantly burst into flames when I took the cap off to see if it had a hot spot). Flavor washing and burning at higher settings is why I wasn't impressed with sub-ohm and never delved into it further.

Removed one of the coils:
Reads 1.9Ω, vapes and tastes good at 3v. Less responsive at 3.6v than above. Less responsive at 4.2v but didn't taste as good (I even added a little more to make it wasn't drying out). Flavor didn't wash out at 5.0v (I'm amazed it wasn't burnt, I never tolerate 2Ω above 4v. Flavor was washed out at 6v, was highly responsive, slower to burst into flames with the cap off.

3v, 3.33a, .9Ω, 10w
3v, 1.57a, 1.9Ω, 4.73w

3.6v, 4a, .9Ω, 14.4w
3.6v, 1.89a, 1.9Ω, 6.82w

4.2v, 4.66a, 9Ω, 19.6w
4.2v, 2.21a, 1.9Ω, 9.28w

5v, 5.55a, 9Ω, 27.78w
5v, 2.63a, 1.9Ω, 13.16w

6v, 6.67a, 9Ω, 40w
6v, 3.16a, 1.9Ω, 18.9w

Because series is essentially one long coil your suggestion is that a 3.8Ω coil would vape the same. Or I could twist these two 1.9Ω coil legs together and 6v should be the same as 3v.

With twisting it came out a little high, 4.2Ω. It took a lot longer to start producing vapor than either at 3v. Both coils did heat from the center. I figured especially with twisting that it would've heated at the twist first and thought that would throw things off.

6v, 1.43a, 4.2Ω, 8.57w

I just happen to have 3.8Ω worth of this 30ga in one piece. Coil came out to be 3.7Ω. Same wrap style although it's bent up to fit inside. Definitely more responsive than the series coils. Probably more responsive than the .9Ω and 1.9Ω at 3v.
The 3.7Ω tastes kind of harsh if I let it warm up, pop off the cap, the center heats up too fast for the outside. As I said, there's a lot more going on here than math. Mainly human perception, but some other factors important to vaping beyond electricity.

6v, 1.62a, 3.7Ω, 9.73w

So there we have it. Dual, single, series and single. All the same wire, simple coils, same wicking, same liquid. Some were similar but none were the same to my tastes.

Setting up the series was actually easier than fitting 3.7Ω in. Done right with a piece of insulated NR wouldn't be that hard so if you think it would be beneficial to your tastes go for it.

Now it's your turn to screw around and see if you can manage to spill half a 30ml bottle on yourself in the process.

 

[turbocad6]

just to illustrate the large variety of coil possibilities VS what can be considered a great vape to the person vaping it, and to show the contrast to the photo above, yet both can be considered "great vapes" although there different in just about every way, here is a few setups that I find to vape very well for me and the way I vape, some running closer to 6v



the best thing you can do is try many variations in many different devices, and I mean really try them. sometimes a coil that I initially wasn't very impressed with yet lived with at different power levels different airflows and variations in wicking you can fine tune it to something really great, where if you condemned it with your 15 minute audition before ripping it out, you won't really learn anything and worse you will start to form false impressions. some of these setups can take some time breaking in before they really shine. I've done many different coils and anything I took a picture of was considered a very good vape, anything I didn't like I ripped out without bothering with any pictures and everything pictured here vaped really great

and singles

 

[Myk]

Just for giggles I rewrapped the 30ga to be a micro. Came out 3.8Ω this time.

Like with higher ohm coils on everything else it took too long to respond for my tastes. But at 5v-6v once it did respond it was as good for vapor production as my 1Ω dual. Taste was amazing.

I can see how people would like higher ohm coils, but for me it was like duals on a mech. It takes too long or it's a fine line before it burns or doesn't produce (and being mechs they don't hold that fine line good enough for me).
It's the same way with my 1.5Ω dual, not with my 1Ω dual.
It's not just about the numbers. Build style and suiting the human input involved plus the human's desires comes into play.
For me 2Ω coils match my input and desires whether that's a 1Ω dual or a 2Ω single.

If someone's desire is long battery life (which is one of my desires), yes, duals are not all they're cranked up to be. You can do something similar with a single micro coil. It will have higher ohms therefore use less amp hours.
It will never be all about the math because our input often changes depending on our mood at the time and how clean the coil is definitely changes as does the temperature of the air blowing across the coils, which is why I like VV/VW.

 

[rurwin]

That twisted ribbon looks amazing, turbocad6.

Some interesting numbers, Myk. How was the taste at 6V on the series and 3.7Ω coils? I am surprised you got so much difference between the single and dual-parallel. Maybe the airflow was sufficiently different. Heating from the centre is a feature of microcoils being so tightly squeezed together, not that they heat from the mid-point of the wire. In fact I think that explains why they are so good, and why the series equivalents take longer to warm up. (I did notice a significant delay too.) A single coil might be electrically similar to a dual-series, but it has half the number of wicking points. It will taste burnt at a lower power, which is what you found.

All in all, some fascinating results that show how complex this thing is. I still think dual-series has legs, but it also has drawbacks. Unsurprisingly.

I twisted the wire because I only have 0.2mm (32ga) on hand. The figure 8 is just a way of making a compact pair of series coils. Not proper microcoils of course; the cross-over holds the turns apart. The loose twist didn't help either; I'll have to get my drill out next time.

I might have to invest in an IGO-W; this 15mm dripper is too small and only has one air hole. (I'd have preferred to lay those coils flat, but there wasn't room.) So experimenting with dual parallel coils is going to get awkward.

 

[EddardinWinter]

That twisted ribbon looks amazing, turbocad6.

Some interesting numbers, Myk. How was the taste at 6V on the series and 3.7Ω coils? I am surprised you got so much difference between the single and dual-parallel. Maybe the airflow was sufficiently different. Heating from the centre is a feature of microcoils being so tightly squeezed together, not that they heat from the mid-point of the wire. In fact I think that explains why they are so good, and why the series equivalents take longer to warm up. (I did notice a significant delay too.) A single coil might be electrically similar to a dual-series, but it has half the number of wicking points. It will taste burnt at a lower power, which is what you found.

All in all, some fascinating results that show how complex this thing is. I still think dual-series has legs, but it also has drawbacks. Unsurprisingly.

I twisted the wire because I only have 0.2mm (32ga) on hand. The figure 8 is just a way of making a compact pair of series coils. Not proper microcoils of course; the cross-over holds the turns apart. The loose twist didn't help either; I'll have to get my drill out next time.

I might have to invest in an IGO-W; this 15mm dripper is too small and only has one air hole. (I'd have preferred to lay those coils flat, but there wasn't room.) So experimenting with dual parallel coils is going to get awkward.

I recently got the Ehpro Helios clone for 25 bucks or so, and it's nice to build on...you could stagger where you land the positive wire and it might work better than the IGO, since it has four terminals.

Just a thought.

EDIT, added picture for illustration, changed "posts" to "terminals"

Roaring thunderously via Tapatalk...

 

[Myk]

That twisted ribbon looks amazing, turbocad6.

Some interesting numbers, Myk. How was the taste at 6V on the series and 3.7Ω coils? I am surprised you got so much difference between the single and dual-parallel. Maybe the airflow was sufficiently different. Heating from the centre is a feature of microcoils being so tightly squeezed together, not that they heat from the mid-point of the wire. In fact I think that explains why they are so good, and why the series equivalents take longer to warm up. (I did notice a significant delay too.) A single coil might be electrically similar to a dual-series, but it has half the number of wicking points. It will taste burnt at a lower power, which is what you found.

All in all, some fascinating results that show how complex this thing is. I still think dual-series has legs, but it also has drawbacks. Unsurprisingly.

I twisted the wire because I only have 0.2mm (32ga) on hand. The figure 8 is just a way of making a compact pair of series coils. Not proper microcoils of course; the cross-over holds the turns apart. The loose twist didn't help either; I'll have to get my drill out next time.

I might have to invest in an IGO-W; this 15mm dripper is too small and only has one air hole. (I'd have preferred to lay those coils flat, but there wasn't room.) So experimenting with dual parallel coils is going to get awkward.

The taste on the series and the micro were pretty good, even at the low voltages where they weren't doing much vapor.

The single spaced high ohm coil wasn't, the center tended to dry out before the outside heated up so I don't think the whole thing was producing vapor/flavor. The "hot spot" center was in front of the air hole so I doubt if it was glowing while I puffed but it must not have been even heating considering how a dry burn went.
I think the differenc was because with 2 coils in series there was twice as much center heating at the same time and less outer coils for the heat to move to.
Figure 30ga and almost 4Ω on a 16ga needle is pretty long with spaced coils. It wasn't pretty all crammed into one side of a dripper.

The micro was very even on the heating. It did start in the center but quicky filled the whole coil. I think the feature of micros is one coil heats another and capillary action pushes liquid around keeping them cool so heating and vapor are even.
I could probably come up with a 30ga micro I like higher than 2Ω. I don't know about 3Ω but considering this one was 3.8Ω it's possible (and I wouldn't have to stack with that high of ohms to hit higher voltages if they are needed).

What's odd is the reason the original .9Ω build wasn't a micro with this same wire is because when it was I was having bad burn problems so I spaced the coils out.
Had a micro build been to my liking at .9Ω I would've had the 3.8Ω a micro for this and not known about the center being a hot spot with spaced coils.

I could see dual (or more) series for something like a high ohm/high voltage coil. I think you mentioned it above, wicking points for a long coil.
I don't know why the twisted section didn't act like a coil but I'm thinking series may be as simple as uncoiled sections (of course it would be better to have NR there's a labor issue with that). Maybe more coiled sections would improve response time with higher ohms.

I've got some spare 32ga I may not get around to using. I might see what happens with that and series once my 100' of ribbon shows up. Could at least show possibilities for a dripper with insulated posts to tie series coils off to.
I need to get a 510 die (because my lathe doesn't do metric).

 

[rurwin]

There's plenty of dies on ebay. I'm very jealous of the lathe. ;-)

 

[Ryedan]

just to illustrate the large variety of coil possibilities VS what can be considered a great vape to the person vaping it, and to show the contrast to the photo above, yet both can be considered "great vapes" although there different in just about every way, here is a few setups that I find to vape very well for me and the way I vape, some running closer to 6v

Great examples of different coil designs turbocad! Can you give me more information on this one? What gauge, ohms, power applied and how did it vape. Any problem keeping the middle of the coils wet? I'm also thinking it was pretty slow to heat up.

OTOH if you liked it, it must have had more pluses than minuses for you.

ETA: Looking at the picture more, the coils look really low to the deck. Is the O.D. of the coils picking up juice from the deck?

 

[p.opus]

If you are not going into low, low sub ohm territory where you just could not get enough wraps of wire around your wick, dual coils are a waste of effort, wick and wire.

I have a dual coiled Trident at 1.3 ohms and I have spent the last two weeks comparing it to a single coil Igo-L at the same resistance. Vapor and flavor production are darn near even... The Trident might edge out the Igo by the slightest amount, maybe. But the thing is, dual coils are thirsty! Battery life with a dual coil is much shorter. I swap out three batteries a day with dual coils while a single battery (18650, 1500mah) will last almost the entire day. Juice consumption seems higher with the Trident as well, not a great deal, but enough to notice.

For daily, normal vaping, single coils win.

But for making vast, blanketing banks of fog... dual coils, huge airflow, obscenely low resistance and high VG juice on a good battery are the ticket.

And don't forget. Dual coils are a great way for manufacturers like Aspire, Kangertech, and Innokin to charge double for their heads, make them that much harder to rebuild, and convince the low education vaper that two HAS to be better than one.

I'll stick with my single coil, easy to build Kayfun, thank you very much.

 

[Ryedan]

I'll stick with my single coil, easy to build Kayfun, thank you very much.

You build the Kayfun with only one coil?



Sorry, just had to do it

 

[p.opus]

You build the Kayfun with only one coil?



Sorry, just had to do it

I'm still looking into that Dual Dragon's Breath Double Barrel Shotgun Twin Chimney build from RipTrippers. It's off the chain dude.....

 

[Ryedan]

I'm still looking into that Dual Dragon's Breath Double Barrel Shotgun Twin Chimney build from RipTrippers. It's off the chain dude.....

LOL, say that five times fast ...

 

[turbocad6]

Great examples of different coil designs turbocad! Can you give me more information on this one? What gauge, ohms, power applied and how did it vape. Any problem keeping the middle of the coils wet? I'm also thinking it was pretty slow to heat up.

OTOH if you liked it, it must have had more pluses than minuses for you.

ETA: Looking at the picture more, the coils look really low to the deck. Is the O.D. of the coils picking up juice from the deck?

that setup is dual of approx 18 wraps each of 28ga at .055"id or 1/16"id, not sure right now tbh I've done several like that. total is either ~.9 or ~1.1-1.2 ohm depending on weather it was .055" or 1/16". I ran that at 20 watts on a dna bottom feeder. the bottom feeder gets fed for each hit so it's always completely saturated enough for one hit. it's also wicked with hemp fiber, cotton would be finicky on coils this long and hot. coils like this heat from the center out and I had that on my cyclone atty which has dual adjustable airholes. on a 3 second hit with the airflow turned down to ~1/16" x 2 I would get a nice civilized vape. it really wasn't that slow at 20 watts and over 5 volts, I mean sure the first 1/2 second- 1 second would lag but a 3 second hit was still a decent civilized hit. on a 3 second hit the center of the coil would do most of the vaping and the longer you held it the more this spread out to the ends of the coils.

I would use this setup normally with relatively tighter airflow and quickish ~3 seconds hits for a normal vape all day but when I felt like taking a big cloud hit all I had to do was open the airflow a bit and hit it for 6-7 seconds, maybe 8... doing this would make it a whole different animal and I could blow rich thick velvety clouds at will, then turn it down again for a tame vape again.

I also had my cyclone setup in such a way that if I held the driptip tightly while I vaped I could actually open the airflow as I vape by slightly twisting the mod. one of my favorite things with this particular setup was to start out with a tight draw, then as the seconds go by as I draw I would open up the airflow as I was vaping... basically coils like this "ramp up" and yes they do have a bit of turbo lag but the idea here was to work with it, and really this gave a very nice vape that had varying characteristics depending on how it was vaped. when I ramped up the airflow as I hit I would get sweet flavor initially and I would kind of match the flow to the burn, hard to describe but again, I wouldn't show anything here in this thread that was less than a really good vape for me and this one def was a nice setup. it's rare to have a potential cloud monster that can also provide a sweet tame vape, hell it even had the ability to stealth vape with just a 2 second hit, yet blow clouds like crazy with a 7-8 second hit. this was a very progressive and interesting setup and I ran with it for a good long while too with several similar builds rangin from 13-20 wraps each.

since then I've built an adjustable chamber volume setup for my cyclone and I've been running a single coil there now just for the simplicity of it. with the full chamber size stock this particular atty really needed the dual coils because the air volume=coil was just too high. a single coil would not give that nice sweet flavorful vape because the chamber was too large but increasing to dual long coils really changed the volume/coil ratio. now with the smaller chamber from my mod I no longer really need duals there but I'll still do a dual once in a while when I feel like really consuming some juice

 

[Ryedan]

that setup is dual of approx 18 wraps each of 28ga at .055"id or 1/16"id, not sure right now tbh I've done several like that. total is either ~.9 or ~1.1-1.2 ohm depending on weather it was .055" or 1/16". I ran that at 20 watts on a dna bottom feeder. the bottom feeder gets fed for each hit so it's always completely saturated enough for one hit. it's also wicked with hemp fiber, cotton would be finicky on coils this long and hot. coils like this heat from the center out and I had that on my cyclone atty which has dual adjustable airholes. on a 3 second hit with the airflow turned down to ~1/16" x 2 I would get a nice civilized vape. it really wasn't that slow at 20 watts and over 5 volts, I mean sure the first 1/2 second- 1 second would lag but a 3 second hit was still a decent civilized hit. on a 3 second hit the center of the coil would do most of the vaping and the longer you held it the more this spread out to the ends of the coils.

I would use this setup normally with relatively tighter airflow and quickish ~3 seconds hits for a normal vape all day but when I felt like taking a big cloud hit all I had to do was open the airflow a bit and hit it for 6-7 seconds, maybe 8... doing this would make it a whole different animal and I could blow rich thick velvety clouds at will, then turn it down again for a tame vape again.

I also had my cyclone setup in such a way that if I held the driptip tightly while I vaped I could actually open the airflow as I vape by slightly twisting the mod. one of my favorite things with this particular setup was to start out with a tight draw, then as the seconds go by as I draw I would open up the airflow as I was vaping... basically coils like this "ramp up" and yes they do have a bit of turbo lag but the idea here was to work with it, and really this gave a very nice vape that had varying characteristics depending on how it was vaped. when I ramped up the airflow as I hit I would get sweet flavor initially and I would kind of match the flow to the burn, hard to describe but again, I wouldn't show anything here in this thread that was less than a really good vape for me and this one def was a nice setup. it's rare to have a potential cloud monster that can also provide a sweet tame vape, hell it even had the ability to stealth vape with just a 2 second hit, yet blow clouds like crazy with a 7-8 second hit. this was a very progressive and interesting setup and I ran with it for a good long while too with several similar builds rangin from 13-20 wraps each.

since then I've built an adjustable chamber volume setup for my cyclone and I've been running a single coil there now just for the simplicity of it. with the full chamber size stock this particular atty really needed the dual coils because the air volume=coil was just too high. a single coil would not give that nice sweet flavorful vape because the chamber was too large but increasing to dual long coils really changed the volume/coil ratio. now with the smaller chamber from my mod I no longer really need duals there but I'll still do a dual once in a while when I feel like really consuming some juice

I understand turbocad. Thanks for the great explanation . Fascinating what can happen when you go outside the box.