Calvinism

[Saintscruiser]

Calvinism was brought up on the board and though I couldn't recite any of it off the top of my head, I decided to look it up. Guys, from what I read, and I only read maybe half of the first page, I can state without hesitation that it is not 100% Christianity. There isn't preordaination. God doesn't pick one group to be saved and one of non-saved. He doesn't preordain anything of the kind. Granted, there will be the saved and unsaved, but it's not God's doing. Salvation is offered to everyone. He gave us all choice. He knocks at the door. We are the ones who open it. It is not His will that anyone perish. I will say this....He knows who will receive Him and those who won't. But I wasn't preordained to get saved. God answered my mom's prayer.

Jesus died for all mankind's sin. I saw that He only died for certain sins. I'm going to post those two things, then post the website so that you can read it for yourself. I don't want any to be fooled, and I promise I'm not the Scripture police, but I have a discerning spirit, and bells and whistles went off. It's easy to get confused in this day and time. We have become lax in many things because doing the right thing takes too much time and energy. Please don't take my word for it. Study on your own.


Quotation:

"God preordained...a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation. " John Calvin

L: This stands for "Limited atonement" or "Particular Redemption." This is the belief that Jesus did not die to save all humans. He only died for the sake of specific sins of those sinners who are saved.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/calvinism.htm
See:

 

[Fisheeboy]

I am in full agreement with all 5 points of the T.U.L.I.P. I have gone many many rounds with so many people over the doctrines of predestination, election, eternal security, etc etc... God Himself led me to these understandings before I had ever even heard of the TULIP or predestination or any of the common Reformed doctrines. This could be very tempting for me to get into debate mode here. But one of the things I have learned in the last few years is that once someone has their own idea of who God is and what the Bible teaches then it is next to impossible for some one like myself to convince them otherwise.
Here is my conviction, God alone gets the credit for saving souls, God alone gets the praise, God alone gets the glory. If I think I can take credit even in the most miniscule way then I am saying I did something to be saved. Fact of the matter is I did nothing because I was incapable of doing something. I did not choose Christ, I would never have chosen Christ, it was impossible for me to choose Christ. I was DEAD! And dead men and dead woman cannot do anything. Just like Lazarus was not capable of doing anything but being dead in his tomb so too was I not capable of doing anything in my death. Not until the Lord Himself called Lazarus forth was Lazarus able to come forth. Not until the Lord Himself regenerated me (made me alive) and called me by name was I able to do anything but be dead. That is my conviction. That is what He has confirmed to me time and time again. He alone is Sovereign, He alone saves, He alone is the One that brings the dead to life. I didn't bring myself to life, I didn't birth myself from God, I didn't choose Him, He chose me.

 

[Fisheeboy]

Hehehe lol I love this kind of stuff!!! Thank you Saintscruiser. I will be eager to see how many folks jump on this. I love the controversial doctrines and topics.
It doesn't get much more controversial than Calvinism.

 

[Sed Contra]

But one of the things I have learned in the last few years is that once someone has their own idea of who God is and what the Bible teaches then it is next to impossible for some one like myself to convince them otherwise.

Does this not apply to you, too?

 

[Fisheeboy]

Yep, sure does.

 

[Saintscruiser]

Like I said in my other post, I posted a website for the people of this website to read and compare with God's Word. Let me state this: If a man calls himself a true prophet and he is only 60% right, he is a false prophet. The reason is that a prophet is 100% all the time....24/7. So that is pretty much all that I am posting at this time. Fishee, I honestly do not wish to engage you. All I wanted to do is post the truth.

 

[Fisheeboy]

Why does the doctrine of predestination rub people the wrong way? I say because they refuse to believe that they don't get some kind of credit for their salvation. It's so contrary to our godlike nature. To think that God and God ALONE gets every single bit of the credit is just too difficult to comprehend. WE insist that we did something, anything, even the smallest thing, and I am convinced that when we do that we are in error. But we all like to get hung up on"free will" and choices and all that stuff. But I'm here to say, I never chose to be born again, I never chose God, I never chose my salvation. I couldn't have, and the simplest way for me to try to illustrate that is by reminding myself and others that we were DEAD in our trespasses and sin. We were 100% separated from Him who is life. He alone is the living God and He alone is the One who gives life. I didn't give myself life any more than I chose to be born from my mother's womb. That wasn't my choice. I was dead folks, that means separated from God. We didn't come to Jesus, He came to us. He was never the one that was lost. We were. And it is He whom seeks out His lost sheep, not the other way around.
I was no more capable of coming to Christ than Lazarus was capable of bringing himself back to life.
Thank God He chose me, because I could not choose Him. I promise that if one is to truly get an understanding of predestination then one is to also have a better understanding of grace and will have a deeper sense of gratitude for what it is that the Lord has done.

 

[Fisheeboy]

Like I said in my other post, I posted a website for the people of this website to read and compare with God's Word. Let me state this: If a man calls himself a true prophet and he is only 60% right, he is a false prophet. The reason is that a prophet is 100% all the time....24/7. So that is pretty much all that I am posting at this time. Fishee, I honestly do not wish to engage you. All I wanted to do is post the truth.

I simply want to post the truth also. I am more than willing to back off. I had a feeling that I would be contrary to other people's beliefs. I've been down this road before. I'm no novice to the word of God nor am I unfamiliar with His truth. He moves mightily in my life and has revealed himself to me in ways that most cannot imagine and that most try to imagine. I say in absolute confidence that I know God! But more importantly, God knows me.
I give you all a sincere apology and shall go my way before I really do offend someone. I hope that the false prophet referral was not directed toward me. It deeply saddens me to think that it possibly may have been. Maybe not even intentionally, but I stand by what I know the Lord has revealed to me to be the truth of His word. And if the doctrine of predestination is considered to be a form of false prophecy then I will likely be considered to be a false prophet of that doctrine. I hope I'm wrong in my assumption and that I am simply misunderstanding you. But I get the feeling that I should just go away. Maybe some one will correct me if I'm wrong in doing this but I'm leaving now before I dig a hole that is not needed in my life our in any one elses. I love the household of God. I did not come here to be a stumbling block.

 

[Fisheeboy]

I think I need to find other Calvinists here Haha I'm not a Calvinist, I'm a Christian, I just happen to know that the Bible teaches all 5 points of the TULIP to be true.
May God continue to bless and strengthen and teach you all.
Fisheeboy....out!

 

[Sed Contra]

Why does the doctrine of predestination rub people the wrong way? I say because they refuse to believe that they don't get some kind of credit for their salvation.

The problem that I have with what you're saying here is that it seems that you think that if one rejects predestination then one cannot believe that one does not deserve credit for one's salvation. This seems false. If one can only choose God because of grace, then one cannot take credit for one's choice - the choice was only due to grace, but one can take this view and also reject the notion of predestination as commonly understood by Calvinists.

So far you have not really defended Calvinism because one can believe pretty much everything that you've said without accepting Calvinism. God gets the credit because without God we cannot choose God. We love because He loved us first. Calvinism is not required to believe these things. A Roman Catholic could agree and so could a Methodist - neither of which accept TULIP.

I promise that if one is to truly get an understanding of predestination then one is to also have a better understanding of grace and will have a deeper sense of gratitude for what it is that the Lord has done.

...and if one is to truly understand many who reject Calvinism, one must also have a better understanding of grace.

Without grace nobody could choose God, but the necessity of grace for salvation does not necessarily mean that God chooses that any should perish. Further, as to a "deeper sense of gratitude," how much more gratitude can one have than 100%? If one can only choose God because God has given one the grace so to do, then God deserves our entire gratitude - which is no less for one who is not a Calvinist than it is for one who is. God deserves all of the credit and all of our thanks.

EDIT: In response to your previous posts, I am not offended by you. I disagree with you, but I can disagree with anyone and everyone. I am simply trying to engage in dialogue.

 

[Sed Contra]

Let me state this: If a man calls himself a true prophet and he is only 60% right, he is a false prophet. The reason is that a prophet is 100% all the time....24/7.

I'm not so sure about that. I think that applies only when a prophet is speaking prophetically - which is not 100% of the time nor 24/7. A prophet could, for example, still give someone the wrong directions to a gas station by accident. It is only when the prophet is speaking for God that a true prophet is not wrong.

 

[Fisheeboy]

Me too. I simply was defending myself but I know better than to do that. That's my bad! I am not defending Calvinism. I was trying to defend the doctrine of predestination. Again, not my place to do that. I have a lot of respect for what you just said. And I am in agreement with you almost entirely. And engaging in dialogue is what I would like to do. I simply disagree with the first post of the thread. I disagree wholeheartedly and attempted to say why I disagreed. I assumed that was kinda the idea, to get feedback and converse and share beliefs. But I get a different feeling now because of Saintscruiser's response. I guess I don't know what I was expecting. I lurked this forum for a bit before I decided to become active on it. I was leery to become active because I seen right away that I was gonna be kinda alone in a sense. If someone is going to bash Calvinistic beliefs then they are bashing my beliefs too. It sucks that no matter how I try to say it or evade it I am considered to be Calvinistic. I can deal with that. It is what it is. And I take no offense at being considered a Calvinist. So just for the sake of argument, I took this too personally. I sense a despising toward Calvinism. Whether it was meant to or not, that despising gets directed toward me too.

 

[Sed Contra]

Me too. I simply was defending myself but I know better than to do that. That's my bad! I am not defending Calvinism. I was trying to defend the doctrine of predestination.

I don't think that you've actually defended predestination as Calvinists understand it, though. You haven't yet said anything, outside of your affirmation of TULIP, that wouldn't be accepted by most non-Calvinists.

I have a lot of respect for what you just said. And I am in agreement with you almost entirely. And engaging in dialogue is what I would like to do. I simply disagree with the first post of the thread. I disagree wholeheartedly and attempted to say why I disagreed. I assumed that was kinda the idea, to get feedback and converse and share beliefs. But I get a different feeling now because of Saintscruiser's response. I guess I don't know what I was expecting. I lurked this forum for a bit before I decided to become active on it. I was leery to become active because I seen right away that I was gonna be kinda alone in a sense. If someone is going to bash Calvinistic beliefs then they are bashing my beliefs too. It sucks that no matter how I try to say it or evade it I am considered to be Calvinistic. I can deal with that. It is what it is. And I take no offense at being considered a Calvinist. So just for the sake of argument, I took this too personally. I sense a despising toward Calvinism. Whether it was meant to or not, that despising gets directed toward me too.

Hey, I am not a fan of Calvinism whatsoever, and I'm not hesitant to say so. However, I am not about "bashing" it or those who agree with it. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would welcome a friendly conversation on the matter.

Oh, and by the way, I think that ALL Christians must believe in predestination - just not necessarily what Calvinists understand by it. Predestination is biblical...and unavoidable, but again, not necessarily how Calvin or his followers (Beza, in particular) understood it. I'm much more comfortable with the debate between St. Augustine and Pelagius on the matter - a debate somewhat paralleled by the Protestant constructs of Calvinism vs. Arminianism. St. Augustine's point was simply that the initium fidei or first steps of faith begin with God. St. Augustine never went so far as double predestination or election unto damnation.

 

[blondeambition3]

I love everyone in the body of Christ... the reason I choose NO particular doctrine or denomination is because my relationship is a living one with Christ and for every scripture that supports a particular doctrinal view, there are others that will support 'another' doctrinal view. We can discuss these differences in 'love' and be OK with one another can't we?

Remember this new commandment:

John 13:34-35

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

I love you all and embrace you all as true Brothers and Sisters in Christ whether we agree 100 percent on doctrine or not.

Please, no one leave. ;(

 

[Saintscruiser]

No, Fishee, that comment wasn't directed at you! It was directed at what I read. Am I attacking your salvation? No. That is between yourself and God. My denomination doesn't believe in drinking or dancing. I understand where that came from, but Scripture got it right.....Jesus turned the water into wine, not grape juice. There is nothing wrong with a toddy for the body. I used to love to dance, but my husband doesn't dance. I smoked cigarettes in front of everyone and got defensive if anyone told me to quit...including my doctor. I am a sinner saved by Grace. I took the beliefs of Calvanism as a personal attack on the character of Almighty God, and I take that personally. Does that make sense? I realize God can take care of Himself...He doesn't need me to battle for His character, but if anyone had said that about my earthy Daddy, Mom, sister, etc., I'd take up for them too. That's why I didn't want to engage you. My relationship with God is deeply personal. Is there any way I will change my mind? No. And, that is honest. That's why I wanted everyone to decide for themselves.

You are still very welcome here. If there are those who wish to discuss this, feel free to do so.

 

[Sed Contra]

I love everyone in the body of Christ... the reason I choose NO particular doctrine or denomination is because my relationship is a living one with Christ and for every scripture that supports a particular doctrinal view, there are others that will support 'another' doctrinal view. We can discuss these differences in 'love' and be OK with one another can't we?

...but you do choose particular doctrines.

You either believe in the doctrine of the Trinity or you don't.

You either believe that Jesus has two nature - one divine and one human - or you don't.

You may not choose a denomination, but even that is a choice that supports a particular doctrinal view pertaining to the nature of the Church.

Yes, we can discuss these difference in love, but make no mistake about the fact that you have made doctrinal choices and even a denominational choice by being "non" denominational.

 

[Sed Contra]

I took the beliefs of Calvanism as a personal attack on the character of Almighty God, and I take that personally. Does that make sense?

I think that makes a lot of sense, and I totally agree.

If Calvinism teaches that God elects some unto damnation, that speaks to the character of God.

The Jewish Scriptures speak of a God whose mercy endures forever, whose loving-kindess endures for ever...not one who choose who goes to hell and who doesn't. It seems reprehensible to think that God could save more but doesn't. Sure, we all deserve to perish by our own merit, but the idea that God chooses some and not others doesn't seem to line up with the God praised in the Jewish Scriptures, the God whose mercy endures forever, whose loving kindness endures forever. I've studied the development of Reformation doctrine, and I'm familiar with the fine points of Calvinism...but they do not line up with what the Church has always taught.

EDIT: I think that it's important to consider Calvinism in its historical context as being reactionary against some of the errors and/or abuses of Roman Catholicism at the time, so extreme ideas were presented in reaction to these Catholic notions...ideas that, when taken too far, became errors, too.

 

[blondeambition3]

...but you do choose particular doctrines.

You either believe in the doctrine of the Trinity or you don't.

You either believe that Jesus has two nature - one divine and one human - or you don't.

You may not choose a denomination, but even that is a choice that supports a particular doctrinal view pertaining to the nature of the Church.

Yes, we can discuss these difference in love, but make no mistake about the fact that you have made doctrinal choices and even a denominational choice by being "non" denominational.

No, sincerely I don't. I 'believe' Christ and I follow Christ only. I read the Bible and I believe every word in it, but as for religions, I follow none except Christ and Christ alone.

I don't actually KNOW or understand fully the Doctrine of the Trinity, and I can't find anything in scripture that states Christ requires that I do to be an effective follower or Witness.... I don't have to 'understand' everything to be saved. JESUS saved me and I was called to 'witness' that with others, in love. He instructed me only to 'study' the Word, follow Him and love others. I love people and let God do the saving and fixing.

 

[blondeambition3]

Here's a breath of fresh air!

Romans 8:1-39

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

 

[Sed Contra]

No, sincerely I don't. I 'believe' Christ and I follow Christ only. I read the Bible and I believe every word in it, but as for religions, I follow none except Christ and Christ alone.

But belief in Christ and belief in "every word" of the Bible do entail doctrines - whether you realize it or not. I believe that you sincerely don't think that's what you're actually doing, but you are actually doing it. You believe something about Christ so you believe in Christ; you believe something about the Bible, so you believe what it says.

I don't actually KNOW or understand fully the Doctrine of the Trinity, and I can't find anything in scripture that states Christ requires that I do to be an effective follower or Witness.... I don't have to 'understand' everything to be saved. JESUS saved me and I was called to 'witness' that with others, in love. He instructed me only to 'study' the Word, follow Him and love others. I love people and let God do the saving and fixing.

I totally agree. You don't have to understand everything to be saved. Absolutely. Further, you actually can't know or fully understand the doctrine of the Trinity - none of us can; however, the belief that God has been revealed in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit is a doctrine. One cannot be a Christian and deny the Trinity. Belief in the Trinity is one of the essentials of Christianity. You don't need to fully understand it, but denying the Trinity amounts to denying Christianity. Do you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, though you fall short of understanding it?

By the way, I'm pushing back because I care about what people think of God and how people think of God. God has called us to love him with our minds, too. Wrestling with the things of God is a good and holy thing, is it not? I am not your adversary here!

EDIT: I am not suggesting that affirming the Trinity is necessary to salvation; someone who is mentally disabled, for example, may not be able to do that. My point is simply that there are some essential doctrines, like the Trinity, that one cannot deny and still be called a Christian. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses deny the full divinity of Christ and the Trinity; they are not, therefore, Christians - even though they call themselves Christian. Mormons are the same way. We can disagree on many things as Christians, but belief in the Trinity and the full humanity and full divinity of Jesus are not among them.