Thats the one I use and Im pretty sure its citric acid. Since all they are really doing is altering the PH of the nic with citric acid I highly doubt its any worse than freebase. Anything is possible but I doubt it.
Carolina Xtract Nicotine
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Skimmed the article.
The impression I got from reading it is it’s sort of toxic, but barely. The reader here didn’t have much funding so they did a few tests on lab animals only, and they didn’t have a lot of time to do it so they had to work fast. They tested gigantic amounts of benzoic acid and sodium benzoate and got Less reaction than expected. Toxicity can happen but the required amounts are huge. Also it tends not to build up much, or cause huge environmental effects because while it doesn’t degrade quickly, it still degrades.
The smaller the organism the less they like it, partially because it’s toxic by relative amount, and it’s easy to make the levels high in really small creatures, though fish are particularly susceptible. (Gills I am personally suspecting) The testing was really limited though. They were only set up to test for things like death, organ failure, and gross environmental effects. It might have subtle effects but those were outside the range of the study.
I am perhaps being assumptive. I’m mostly assuming it had to happen because of the very existence of both prescription and non prescription nicotine products. Because they were medications rather than “tobacco products” the standards of safety were much higher and they would have had to go through standard procedures.
iirc the safety testing was done by a couple of the big pharmaceutical companies regarding the patch and aerosol nicotine inhalers. Not vaping specifically. Unprotonated nic mor or less ignores tissue barriers though so any methodology is going to wind up pretty similar. They had to pass full on FDA drug panels and do long term testing to get prescription oks, then they had to do even more rigorous long term stuff to get it OKed for OTC.
Yep. That’s benzine though. A couple Letters make all the difference with chemical names. If nicotine benzoate degrades into benzine when the nicotine portion is stripped off (which it has to be or else it would never cross the blood brain barrier) that might be something, or not, depending on concentration. More stuff we just don’t know.
High quality is a big deal, and while nic is expensive it’s not something you want to scrimp on either. I may have to check them out.
AFAIK nicotine benzoate should be pretty darn easy to make. Cook it in a pot, more or less. Or even just leave it in a pot and wait. When you mix acids and bases they just naturally form salts. It may or may not be exothermic. I don’t know. If it is it’s certainly not highly exothermic.
I kinda doubt that one too.
salicylic acid and lactic acid I’ve both heard of being done. It will work with basically anything. Just about any acid will make a “salt”, and there are hundreds.
I’d call it better than even money. Whether they’re safer than unprotonated or not is up in the air though.
It absolutely can degrade into benzine but so can PG and VG. The good news is that the temp required to do so is quite a bit higher than anyone would vape at. Well unless they happen to like the taste of dry hits, charred wick, and burned flavorings. Even then the levels of benzine in the vapor is still going to be less than in cigarette smoke.
That’s outside the body though. Inside the body there are all kinds of weird chemical level activators and catylists. There are several drugs that turn into different chemicals almost immediately upon hitting the bloodstream. We just don’t know what the various protonated compounds do when they get there.
I'm considering buying a 120ml bottle of the 100mg VG and my recipe is pictured. How long can the bottle sit in the fridge if I'm only using 1.2ml per 30ml bottle before it begins to oxidize and would negate the original benefit over the I suppose Chinese Nicotine were all probably using now.
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Do the Pepsi challenge of the the cheap stuff vs Carolina vapes. Nonpercievable difference. Both were less than dead clear. I’m a bit annoyed actually. Nic used to be better than this.
I guess to start the only way for me to know will be by taste in an unflavored mix. While the Carolina Nicotine sounds attractive because it's USA grown and processed the final judgement will be by taste and relaxation effect. I just don't want to waste any money if it cant be stored for the period it will take me to use up the bottle at 1.2ml per 30ml bottle because that's 83.333333333 mixes and it'll take me a long time to Vape it all. If it can be stored in the fridge and not get an off taste for the duration I think it's worth it. If not, no.
The problem I had is my bottle did not seem Uber fresh. I’ve got it in the fridge now.
Yup the term "salt" is just marketing! Salt type nic, for the lack of a better term, have been around for a long time. The first was Vermont Vapor's 36mg/ml started in 2009. They used citric acid to reduce odor and to make it smother.
The easy way to see if your nic. is non protonated is to use a PH meter. Non protonated nic will have a PH of 10.9 or so.
A good place to find some of the history of our nic. is the Nicotine Comparisons thread, starting around page 232, have fun, lots of good info!
More off the wall B.S.! Rts Vapes used to say there nic. was grown and processed in N.C. , then they dropped that clam, then they went out of business (more or less).
Read someplace ???? that it would cost 2000.00 a liter for nic. if it was produced in the United Stated
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Read someplace ???? that it would cost 2000.00 a liter for nic. if it was produced in the United Stated
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This strikes me as unlikely. If they were extracting it from retail cigs maybe. Farmers produce is equivalently priced the world over though. They’d have to grow a strain of high nic tobacco, but that’s doable. They’d also need highly automated equipment to keep labor costs down. That’s doable too though.More off the wall B.S.! Rts Vapes used to say there nic. was grown and processed in N.C. , then they dropped that clam, then they went out of business (more or less).
Read someplace ???? that it would cost 2000.00 a liter for nic. if it was produced in the United Stated
I really can't remember ware I read it, Think it had more to do with regulations and permitting, we can't even get a box mod approved!
I am not sure I understand your math.
If you are buying a 120mL bottle, and using 1.2mL per batch; you should be able to make 100 batches. At any rate, the three most controllable influences to nicotine degradation; are light (UV), heat, and air (oxygen).
Light can be controlled by using amber or cobalt blue bottles. A secondary opaque container; such as a cardboard box, or wrapping the bottle in foil. Or, simply storing the nic in a dark environment.
@Rossum did an informative experiment, regarding temperature (freezer vs. room temp; as well as glass vs. plastic), and shared his results in this thread. His results support the generally accepted idea that "cooler is better than warmer." Nic stored in the fridge; will last longer than nic stored at room temp. Nic stored in the freezer; will last longer than nic stored in the fridge.
Air exposure can be a greater challenge. Glass is preferred to plastic. Though, in Rossum's tests, his samples stored in PET plastic bottle showed little difference to the glass samples. More problematic is opening the bottle (which allows fresh air/more oxygen to enter). And, increasing airspace, as the volume of liquid is removed.
These last two can be better controlled by re-bottling the nic into smaller containers. Breaking down the 120mL, into two 60mL bottles, or even four 30mL bottles, helps to protect the nicotine in the undisturbed bottles.
The one additional concern I have about the Carolina product is: the use of an eyedropper cap. The rubber used to make the soft dropper bulb (and often the cap seal as well) is quite gas-permeable. Which means it is just one more entry point for air. This alone would make me re-bottle. Or, find a more appropriate solid cap.
So, @TonyD64, if I were in your shoes, and wanted to extend shelf life as long as possible; I would consider breaking down the original bottle, into smaller (non-eyedropper capped bottles). And, store all but the one bottle currently in use, in the freezer (vs. the fridge). The working bottle I would keep in the fridge. That should easily move longevity into terms of years.
OK thanks for the info. The reason I mentioned the fridge is because Carolina tells you not to freeze the bottle of any bottle of Nicotine. I don't know enough about Nicotine yet to think that's right or not but it seems like a better way to store it to me. The 83.3333 figure comes from the calculator pic that I posted 100mg Nic to a 4mg strength would be 1.2ml in the batch with 10-20% water and VG added for a 30ml batch. If it can be frozen without any adverse effects for long term storage it's worth a try for at least one bottle. In the 98 day's since I've quit smoking I've saved $619.36 at the gas station price where I was buying Cigs so the $22.00 cost is not really an issue for the flavor test but $13.00 for shipping seems high. I'll repeat it again, in 98 day's I've saved $619.36 lol. Thanks again for the reply.
Nic base can definitely be stored in the freezer. It will get more viscous, but it will not undergo a phase-change to solid.
I've not compared long-term storage in the freezer vs. the refrigerator, only freezer vs. room temperature, and based on that, I have to say: Colder is better.
I've also used nic base that's been in cold (freezer) storage for five years and it was good as new; completely clear and with no "oxidized nic" taste.
Still not understanding the 83.3333 ... even after looking at your calc screen shot. 120mL ÷ 1.20mL = 100... regardless of what ever else is included. 120mL divided into 83.3333 equal portions would result in a portion size of 1.44000576002304. 1.44mL of 100mg/mL nic in a 30mL recipe; would result in a 4.8mg/mL nicotine strength.
I read that too. I think(?) they are using the word "freeze," in the true chemistry/physics sense of the word; meaning when a liquid becomes a solid. As @Rossum mentioned; a household freezer does not get cold enough to freeze PG or VG based nicotine concentrate. Freezer storage is how many of us are storing our long-term nicotine supplies.
To be certain, you could e-mail Carolina Extracts, and ask for clarification.
You might also like to read this pinned thread about nicotine storage. It was written by Dr. Kurt Kistler, a chemistry professor at a Pennsylvania university, and very involved in vaping/e-liquid research.
Long Term Nic Storage
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