China Vs. USA E Liquid--Selling E Juice Based on Patriotism.

[lorikay13]

I looked for a reg number for the supplier we're talking about but not naming... Didn't see one. Maybe they're under a different name? I could have searched by address or by owner name but neither of those items are on their website.

That's because they are powered by angels and answer to a higher authority.


Goddess help me...I'm sorry....I just couldn't resist that one....

You do make an interesting point here. I do believe this exact subject as well as the definitions of all the words involved is exactly what the FaaDaaAaa is trying to figure out right now. It is very interesting to wonder just what DOES being registered with the Feds mean or achieve???? It seems that for the ejuice seller..foriegn or domestic they are between a rock and a hard place no matter what they do. But I would think...although of course I don't know....that being registered would simply make it easier and faster for the Feds to shut you down when they do make up their minds about ecigs. All I know is that I'm stocking up on my favorite juice like it's the Apocolyse, which btw I buy simply because I love the taste over anything else I've tried. Well that...and because God told me to buy it.

 

[LostInDaJungle]

Well, I got a response from the Angels...

Hi *REDACTED*,

Yes we are registered with the FDA, although no e-liquid on the market is FDA approved. Registration #1411889802.
Hope this helps.

That last long rambling post was me kinda learning about it on the fly.

The bigger issue to me is this: What if there are more "Anthrax" letters (or something even worse) and one of these resellers get their e-juice contaminated without their knowledge. (Far fetched, I know) So, you're happily vaping your juice when you find out that you have Anthrax. The Bioterrorism boys show up and say "Hey, who the ...... is VapidVapers.com?" (Made up name) That's why even changing the label means you have to register.

Frankly, my China juice doesn't even have the company name on it. A year from now let's hope I remember if that RY4 was from eastmall or healthcabin...

I'm actually feeling better about the USA suppliers after all of this. But the reality is that e-cigs have already had their share of scams and flim-flams and that has made me a very skeptical consumer. Hiding behind "secret recipes", and making claims about fantastic facilities no one ever sees doesn't inspire trust.

Like I said, if I had gone to all the trouble of building a clean room, doing testing, etc... I'd have my website plastered with pictures, test results... I'd be telling you what my employee's qualifications are. "Jason has 15 years experience... Blah, blah, blah." All of that can easily be done without giving away the keys to the store. Showing me an American flag is not nearly as powerful as showing me your clean room. Heck, you can at least put up your address and who owns the place, right?

At the end of the day, I feel it's on the vendor to "show his work" as they say in grade school. It's not on me to uncritically trust that everything they say is true. Maybe that's just a difference of opinion, but you don't know who you're dealing with, and anyone who's ever been screwed by Smoking Everywhere knows that not all e-cig vendors are trustworthy.

If you like the juice, you like the juice. Be it Chinese, French, USA made... I don't care. However, if you're going to claim that your juice is superior, you need to show me. Lacking proof, all e-juices are the same quality in my eyes. I'll base my decisions on flavor and price.

 

[DWTaylor]

From their FAQ:

"all companies who produce products for human consumption must register their facility and operations with the FDA"

So, does that mean that any US seller who isn't FDA registered is breaking the law? No, seriously, I'd like an answer to that one.

I mean, enough talk of the godless commies and their hatred of prayer in school, are the very people who pimp their patriotism really criminals? How can you trust a criminal?

Hehe... Ok, that bit of hyperbole aside:

1) At what point do you have to be FDA registered by law? If you're buying unflavored nic juice at strength and adding flavor? If you're cutting high strength nic juice with PG/VG? Only if you're extracting the nic yourself?

At what point are you "producing" the product?

2) Who out there is FDA registered? Johnson Creek is one. Who else?


-------------------

One big problem with reading the FDA rules on this is figuring out what an e-cig would fall under. Food? Medical Device? Drug?

JC went in under food which is the easiest to get and makes the most sense.

"If you are a domestic facility and do not register, you too will have committed a prohibited act. The federal government can bring both civil and criminal charges against you."

How does the FDA define "processing"?

"Manufacturing" (also "processing") means making food from one or more ingredients, or synthesizing, preparing, treating, modifying or manipulating food, including food crops or ingredients. Examples include cutting, peeling, trimming, washing, waxing, eviscerating, rendering, cooking, baking, freezing, cooling, pasteurizing, homogenizing, mixing, formulating, bottling, milling, grinding, extracting juice, distilling, labeling or packaging.

So, just putting a new label on the bottle makes you a "processor" who must register with the FDA.

Oh, and if you don't like it, you support terrorists.

FIS was created, in part, in response to the Bioterrorism Act of 2002, which gave high priority to improved information management to help protect the food supply.

If someone somehow finds anthrax in their RY4, who is going to be able to track down the batch to mom n' pop?

(BTW, Dekang's FDA registration number is 16460487818.)

I looked for a reg number for the supplier we're talking about but not naming... Didn't see one. Maybe they're under a different name? I could have searched by address or by owner name but neither of those items are on their website.

The FDA estimates it will take you 3 hours to register a food processing facility. I think before using any "Made in the USA" supplier asking them if they're FDA registered is a good step to take. If they're not willing to spend three hours or don't have their stuff together enough to at least comply with a law designed to keep us all safer, then you have to wonder what other little details they aren't getting right. The process is easy, and unless the FDA has a reason to come out and look at your operation, they don't.

I didn't know that this law existed or was that stringent, and I know of several sellers that vend Dekang juice that would run afoul of this for re-labelling the product. I don't doubt that it was ignorance of the law that led to these sellers running afoul of the law.

However, I'm also not trying to sell juice... If this is your business, you should know it well enough to understand the legal requirements. If you "just didn't know" about the legal stuff, what else don't you know about? It speaks to the professionalism and expertise of your company. The more expertise you CLAIM to have, the more damning it becomes to overlook something this important.

I know I'm going to send an e-mail to the guy I get my stuff from and let him know. I'd hate to see a bunch of good vendors go down because they go after them on this technicality to stop the sale of e-cigs. Al Capone was done in on tax fraud charges ya know.

Anyway, I'd love a list of the registered US Juice makers/mixers/suppliers. Would give me a short list of people to shop from.

I will have to say I am sorry on that that. I did look at this to see what was needed, as well as johnsons creek. I am on the fda site right now. I see there is a few things ya can do. I am sure that OTC meds isn't what the cert is for, the only one I can see that is even possible is Each DOMESTIC Food Facility.
If that is what your talking about
A: I see all that have certs for it is under the wrong one.
B:I am not sure how it applies.
All I see on this is a classic read this pay this and we'll give your a piece of paper.
As per the site the paper is free woot.
I am sorry but this is the funniest thing I have seen in some time.
This is the classic how to of washing hands, storage, and how to dispose.
Does this mean that if I am a food inspector as a day job, that it is a good marketing tool?
They will not give an OTC cert for a product that isn't approved, that I am sure. So if it isn't that what is it?
I am sure I would be happy to find out about this if they are selling me prepackaged steak, but for ejuice a cert of this kind I am sorry about it don't make me think they have any extra training.
If they don't make it they will not know how to. This don't give them any extra training.
I'll pay for this to make those happy, but I'll be honest it isn't going to affect my set up due to I worked in DOMESTIC Food Facility, a beef plant and I have put everything I know about keeping it clean to work and much much more.
Even the standards aren't really that much, if ya worked with food ya know what can pass and can't, and what can pass can be scary.
So in ending once again I am sorry I didn't read it all and it make me look poorly.
But still most of the juice makers out there want to sell a safe product. We'll not be taking short cuts to make more money when most of use started using the product and we want to make sure there is a place for this in the US.

 

[DWTaylor]

Also I am was just using Johnson creek as an example. I might not have used their juice but I am sure they are trying to keep this going like the rest of us.

 

[5cardstud]

I got nothing against China or their products it's the U.S. Customs I don't trust or want to take a gamble on. If they're good enough to keep loaning this country money all the time they should be good enough not to be trash mouthed.

 

[mn shutterbug]

The FDA estimates it will take you 3 hours to register a food processing facility. I think before using any "Made in the USA" supplier asking them if they're FDA registered is a good step to take. If they're not willing to spend three hours or don't have their stuff together enough to at least comply with a law designed to keep us all safer, then you have to wonder what other little details they aren't getting right.

Yeah, like the FDA's largest concern is the public's safety.

 

[5cardstud]

Yeah, like the FDA's largest concern is the public's safety.

Plus I don't think I'd want the FDA in my e-cig business with their outlook on it.

 

[lorikay13]

oh my gosh,shutterbug!! Your not actually bashing the FaaDaaAaa are you!?!?!? Besides...what the heck do we need ecigs for....we have Chantix!!!
8-o

 

[mn shutterbug]

Let me guess - Chantix is FaaDaaAaa approved, right? And, there are lawsuits pending against the makers of Chantix.

 

[DWTaylor]

I am sorry this is a post that has been bugging me for some time and if I came off as rude I am sorry. I, like I have said have no probs with china juice. I use it for the flavors I can't get my hands on, but I feel that in this post some users have been bashing US mixers. I am proud of my juice. I am from a southern family, and have all the values drilled in my head either by being told some much or backhanded till I understand lol.
My stores motto is I'll not sell juice that I wouldn't give to family and friends. To me just by willing to give this to my mother means I have done every thing I can to keep it safe.
I am offended that any would suggest that we don't try to keep it safe. If you get sick I am getting my big ol .... sued no ifs or buts about it.
I am a ma and pop store. I can't afford that and I wouldn't do anything that would harm a person.
Other then the fly by nighters no one does.
Please understand that most of us that mix juice this might not be our life, but if we mess up or just don't care it can mess it up quicker then a fat man eating a twinkie.

 

[DWTaylor]

Just so all can see I'll post this link US FDA Agent Registration Service Fees
It is a pay and give I am sorry don't make me feel safer

 

[fenez]

What would make me feel safer would be if all the suppliers that hand mix their stuff would get their facility inspected by the health dept. which if I am not mistaken is the law for anything you make that is consumable.

 

[Quick1]

Just so all can see I'll post this link US FDA Agent Registration Service Fees
It is a pay and give I am sorry don't make me feel safer

What would make me feel safer would be if all the suppliers that hand mix their stuff would get their facility inspected by the health dept. which if I am not mistaken is the law for anything you make that is consumable.

I agree. This certification looks more like a registration. Name & address type of thing. I suppose it might be useful for notifications, like if the FDA became aware of tainted VG or the likes.

It does sound like you have all the best intentions and even more, some experience in the food industry/food plant.

but what would make me feel better is.
Can the raw ingredients be traced from their origin and some confidence that it's safe.
The ability and training to chemically spot check or send out the periodic sample for analysis.
Regardless of how well intentioned or meticulous the supplier is, if the materials they use are already tainted or unsafe when they get them then it doesn't matter.

On the other hand, I ingest and breath all kinds of crap every day so I'm not extremely worried about getting seriously ill from this stuff in the short term.

 

[DWTaylor]

I agree. This certification looks more like a registration. Name & address type of thing. I suppose it might be useful for notifications, like if the FDA became aware of tainted VG or the likes.

It does sound like you have all the best intentions and even more, some experience in the food industry/food plant.

but what would make me feel better is.
Can the raw ingredients be traced from their origin and some confidence that it's safe.
The ability and training to chemically spot check or send out the periodic sample for analysis.
Regardless of how well intentioned or meticulous the supplier is, if the materials they use are already tainted or unsafe when they get them then it doesn't matter.

On the other hand, I ingest and breath all kinds of crap every day so I'm not extremely worried about getting seriously ill from this stuff in the short term.

I am understand were you are coming from. At this point I am only able to say that I use everything I get first. Most cases quite a bit till I feel safe with them.
Still there is the change that some thing will be wrong. That is why in most cases they have recalls. The plant I worked in had a recall of beef about 6 years ago, as well as the others.
I know I am lucky cause I have bugged my supplier of liquid to no end about batches, any recalls what not.
I have all the paper work for all the batches they send me. I am waiting on the paper work for the batch of juice that is being shipped today. I'll not sell with out the paper work.
The PG and VG also can be a worry but after making my own juice for 6 months and ordering a ton of different samples, I feel I can use it by nose, but still I am not going to put anyones health on that.
the vg and pg I am using I have used about 40 to 50 ml of each in my own juice.
I am sure we all have a way of testing it. This is just the way I test mine.
At this point shipping to a lab is out of my means, I will be doing it with in the next few months if I can see people like my product.

 

[LostInDaJungle]

Just so all can see I'll post this link US FDA Agent Registration Service Fees
It is a pay and give I am sorry don't make me feel safer

You don't have to pay an agent, you just have to register from what I can tell. IANAL.

As far as "safer", since this is a legal requirement, taking care of these things is like having a business license... It's a sign of professionalism. Do I feel safer working with a vendor who knows his trade well enough to make sure the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed? Why would I trust Best Buy more than a guy selling stereo equipment from the back of his van?

And while I understand that you personally have your own "code" on what quality you provide, I don't know you. I have to trust you based on what? This is not intended to be an insult, but I could tell you I'm a 23 year old blonde with giant knockers... How would you know? This is the internet for god's sake.

The guy selling stereo equipment out of his van might be a great guy who personally tests every piece he sells and will fix anything you buy from him with a smile. We don't know.

DW, it's up to you as a seller how you want to present your product. Instead of being offended, maybe take this as two extremes of what customers want to see from their juice vendors in terms of reassurances. You have some that will gladly take your word for it, and you have some that are going to be hard to placate no matter what you do. I guess I'm in that latter camp.

Also, alot of buyers may not be active on the forums. Your website is the only indication of your quality, your pride in your work... It benefits you as a supplier to have information out there that shows that you take quality seriously, and that you're proud of your work. When someone questions the quality, they're thinking about your juice and you have an opportunity to earn a customer or lose one depending on how you handle the situation.

Remember too, that the reason you're getting the questions might be that the person has already had a bad experience with another vendor. He might just be trying to avoid making another mistake. Unfortunately, too many people find out about e-smoking from a vendor who is trying to take advantage of them.

I work for a newspaper, and I hear awful things about our product every time I mention it to someone. I don't get offended, I relish the opportunity to change someone's mind. I'm glad the subject came up so that I can tout the benefits of a product I am very proud to produce. I don't start telling them that USA Today is made from the ground bones of zombies and that Rupert Murdoch is a cross-dresser. (Even though it's true! )

I have no issue with someone promoting the quality of their juice, but the thread is subtitled "Selling e-juice based on patriotism", and patriotism is always the last refuge of scoundrels. Indeed, I encourage every vendor to promote their quality and leave discussions of other people's juice out of it.

“But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.” ~Galatians 6:4

"A soft tongue can break hard bones." ~Proverbs 28:13

 

[ikbtops]

I'm relatively new with vaping, but I recently bought some prefilled e9
cartomizers from e-cig.com(China)about 4 different packs of 4, and they tasted and felt awful on my throat. I had to discard them.
Any mom and pop e-juice I've had has been nothing but great and tasty.
I would trust what my body tells me above all.

 

[Dougers]

Vaping Chinese e-liquid is like playing Russian roulette. Not a risk I'm willing to take. Here, you can hold someone accountable. If you get sick or die from a Chinese e-liquid, tough luck, nothing anyone can do about it. Also, look at their track record regarding the value of human life. ie: Oh we had a female child but are only allowed one child...let's murder it and hope the next one is a boy. No thanks; poison infant formula, poison dog food, toys made out of real kitten skins, yeah, I wanna buy e-liquid from there!

 

[six]

What is - exactly - necessary for the OP to trust a US made juice? Or a UK made juice?

EcoPure has a similar lab to Johnson Creek. Madvapes has stainless steel equipment, sterilizers, and HVAC filtration. Just those three alone without getting in to the dozens of others who have been forth rite about their methods and spaces they use, can also add that they actually test the nicotine they use, Subscribe to madvapes weekly newsletter and you can learn much about their process and their self-imposed safety regulations and how far in to the govt bureaucracy they have traveled... And that's just madvapes.

What is inappropriate to ask them is questions about their sources supplies. That falls in to "trade secrets" and those who demand that information are not doing so for their stated reasons.

 

[sailorman]

Vaping Chinese e-liquid is like playing Russian roulette. Not a risk I'm willing to take. Here, you can hold someone accountable. If you get sick or die from a Chinese e-liquid, tough luck, nothing anyone can do about it. Also, look at their track record regarding the value of human life. ie: Oh we had a female child but are only allowed one child...let's murder it and hope the next one is a boy. No thanks; poison infant formula, poison dog food, toys made out of real kitten skins, yeah, I wanna buy e-liquid from there!

The people who screwed up the dog food and infant formula are in a Chinese prison as we speak. I'd say that's being held accountable. The U.S. would never hold an American CEO accountable when his product killed people. Never have and never will. Massey coal mine explosion. Who was held accountable? No one. BP oil platform explodes and 12 people die. Who is held accountable? No one. The list goes on and on and on.
The guy who ran Box Elder in the U.S. and sent out 200mg nicotine with a 100mg label. Was he "held accountable"? Hell no. He's sitting beside his swimming pool sipping on an iced tea.
The two biggest e-juice scandals in recent history were 100% caused by U.S. companies, yet China make a thousand times more e-juice than is made in the U.S. Nobody from the U.S. went to jail. Nobody was prosecuted. No one was held accountable. And you criticize the Chinese? LOL!!

Even if you sued an American corporation in civil court, they've seen to it that they're protected with award caps. AKA Tort reform. Think that only applies to "frivolous" lawsuits? Well, think again. In 23 states, if an American company sold toxic baby formula and caused brain damage in babies, they'd be liable for a maximum of $250K per child and no one would go to jail. In China, they'd be executed. How accountable can a billion dollar corporation be held when a baby's life is only worth a maximum of $250K? Who was it that doesn't value life? China? Hahaha...Make me laugh.

Value of human life?? ROFLMAO!!! The U.S. values human life if it's American human life, sort of. Sometimes. If you're rich or famous. 50,000 deaths by preventable illnesses due to lack of health care. Yeah, we value human life. Ask the Indians killed by Dow Chemical in Bophal how we value life. Ask the people American corporations kill in South and Latin America who was held accountable. Heck, ask an Iraqi or an Afghan how much Americans value human life. A soldier goes berzerk and slaughters 17 people. What's the value? $50K a head. But I guess an Afghan life is cheaper than an American life. An American life is worth a whopping $250,000, if you win the lawsuit and get the maximum jury award.

 

[ki77en]

Very well said, sailorman. I'd say you hit the nail on the head.