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Clarification of ECF new Safety Specifications for mods PLEASE

Discussion in 'New Members Forum' started by liberated, Mar 13, 2012.

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  1. liberated

    liberated New Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    United Kingdom
    Rolygate posted new safety specifications just recently (which I think is a great thing to do) but I am still rather confused. His post says:

    "EMSS - ECF Metal tube mods Safety Specification

    The EMSS, and warnings to buyers, are only applicable to metal tube mods that can take two batterieseither by design, or by user error, or by deliberate misuse. This refers to mods that accept an 18500, 18650, or two smaller cells.

    Metal tube mods that can only accept one battery are exempt at this time.

    It does apply to metal tube mods that take one battery but for which an extender tube is available OEM (from the original manufacturer) to enable longer cells or two cells to be fitted"


    On the basis of this I cancelled my order for a Provari version 2 (with an extension cap for a longer battery) before I saw this update.....


    "2012-03-13 - updated to clarify that only 2-cell metal tube mods are involved, not those that can only accept 1 cell."

    Does that mean that the Provari with an extension cap for use with their longer battery, is considered safe by ECF? It does only accept I cell.

    I would really like to re-order as soon as possible if it is - so would very much appreciate help on this.

    Thanks




     
  2. tj99959

    tj99959 ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Aug 13, 2011
    utah
    The Provari has lots of built in protection, plus the fact that it is a VV mod designed to boost the voltage. So it would be silly to stack bats in it even if it would work.

    However, even though it is possible to stack bats in some mods doesn't mean you have to. I could stack bats in my SB all day long, but I don't plan on doing it.
     
  3. liberated

    liberated New Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    United Kingdom
    Many thanks.

    I don't want to stack batteries. In fact one of the reasons that I would like to buy the Provari is that it uses single batteries.

    I just would like to know whether the update saying that the specification does not apply to single cell units means that the issue of the extension cap ( i.e. the part that says the specs apply to "tube mods that take one battery but for which an extender tube is available....to enable longer cells") is not a problem any more and the specs do not apply to the Provari as it only uses one cell (as per the update).
     
  4. tj99959

    tj99959 ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Aug 13, 2011
    utah
    No, the extension cap it's self is not a problem, it is only when people use an extensin to stack batteries that ecf has a problem with it.
    The main issue that ecf is really addressing is stacking bats in tubes that do not have protection ckts built in.
    The new Mini Provari will have the ability (eventually) to use three different sizes of batteries 18350, 18490, 18650 through the use of diffeent end caps., but you will still only use one battery in it.
     
  5. hairball

    hairball ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 17, 2010
    Other Places
    You might take a look at the BuzzPro by notcigs.com. Yes you stack batteries in it but it's considered the safest stacked battery mod on the market. Protected batteries, chip in it shuts down in the event of failure to protect (mod, user, batteries), and is well ventilated. Stacking batteries isn't as bad as it's being made out...just use common sense and always buy the best batteries available and pair it with a mod that has safety features built in.
     
  6. liberated

    liberated New Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    United Kingdom
    Yes - I might well do that as the new version (apparently available soon according to a thread called Notcigs Buzz Pro II now ECF APPROVED !!)is the first on the the ECF "safe list" - and it is over half the price of the Provari.

    The only problem is the way that the new design has been pictured it has no mesh to stop the vent slits letting stuff into the battery casing - it would take about 1 day in my handbag to get completely gunged up...Let's hope that aspect gets covered before it goes on to the market.
     
  7. rem700

    rem700 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 29, 2011
    Mn
    Sounds like a good reason to clean out your handbag:evil:
     
  8. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 24, 2009
    ECF Towers
    The EMSS is not in force, it is provided as advance information for mod manufacturers to decide on their options, and for the type of buyers who carry out research with due diligence before purchase and might want to know about the various issues.

    EMSS itself is a specification that may see some minor changes especially in wording and clarification as time passes. The main features are unlikely to change.

    One change it might cause is to make users employ a slip case to put their mod in when in the pocket or purse. This is probably a good idea anyway for several reasons. Putting a lithium battery powered device that can be operated inadvertently loose in the purse is a bad idea, and has resulted in several incidents. Using some kind of case is far better.

    Regarding the Provari, AFAIK it is designed to run one battery. The EMSS makes it clear that only mods with two batteries inserted have exploded. Unless you intend to insert two batteries, there is no issue.

    In addition, it is likely (but not proven) that no electronic-control mods have exploded - only the normal basic electrical type. This is another reason why a Provari would not be implicated.

    Note also that some mods with electronic controls will not operate with two batteries inserted. This might apply to the Provari.

    EMSS is not in operation until June as that will allow us to work out the wrinkles, for manufacturers to make a decision, and for manufacturers to contact us with their concerns - therefore we cannot give any opinion until that time.


    Retrofit
    Some useful safety features can easily be retrofitted by any machine shop. You can have gas vent slots milled along the body, or gas vent holes drilled along the body if the workshop does not have a mill but has a drill press.

    Caution probably only needs to be exercised if you are using two batteries, in a metal tube mod, the mod appears to be gas tight. In this case, it might be a good idea to ensure that you do not insert two unprotected Li-ion batteries. The mod would need to operate with two batteries in - some electronic control mods might not.

    Also be aware that a battery is not necessarily what it says on the label: for example it may say 'Tenergy Li-FePo4' but instead be an unprotected Li-ion reject cell bought cheap as rejected after testing, stripped, and re-covered with a counterfeit label. In fact this is what we now think happened in a recent mod explosion where 'Tenergy Li-FePo4' batteries were known to have been used, since (real) Tenergy cells appear to be far more capable than the manufacturer's specification suggests and seem unlikely to fail energetically.

    This is why mods need safety features like large gas vents: you don't know what the batteries are.
     
  9. sailorman

    sailorman Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jun 5, 2010
    The Florida Oil Coast
    This is simple. These specs are designed to protect fools who insist on stacking batteries, despite the manufaturers warnings and in defiance of common sense.

    If you want your Provari to be safe, regardless of what these specs say, just don't stack batteries.

    IMO, it's totally unfair to brand a device as unsafe when the only way it's unsafe is through deliberate misuse. Thank God that ECF isn't passing judgement on the safety of guns or knives or razors or headache remedies.

    And then, after all this over-the-top pandering to hysteria, we get this:

    "Caution probably only needs to be exercised if you are using two batteries, in a metal tube mod, and that mod appears to be gas tight. In this case, it might be a good idea to ensure that you do not insert two unprotected Li-ion batteries. "

    WHAT??? Caution probably only needs to be exercised....??

    WHAT??? "It might be a good idea....."

    Your darn right that caution needs to be exercised when using 2 batts in a gas tight tube.
    And your darn right that you shouldn't stack unprotected batteries. That goes for any mod, gas tight or not, unless those batteries are known quality IMR's, in which case it's only a marginally better idea.

    So on one hand, we have these specs that are so ridiculous that a Provari or a Silver Bullet would be deemed unsafe, and OTOT, we have a lukewarm reminder of what are probably the two most important safety rules there are.

    I think the ECF gurus have bit off more than they can chew here. Trying to pass judgement on the safety of every device out there by a set of one-size-fits-all rules is far beyond their pay grade and does a disservice not only to manufacturers of perfectly safe and time proven devices, but vapers, especially new vapers, as well.

    The OPs decision to cancel his Provari order is a perfect case in point.
     
  10. pumasforpets

    pumasforpets Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 19, 2012
    NWI
  11. Rocketman

    Rocketman Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Is the Silver Bullet deemed SAFE?
    People stack batteries in the SB and reviews seem to indicate the small vent under the switch is adequate to prevent explosion. The SB is built like a tank,for sure, but does ECF consider it a 'Safe MOD"?
     
  12. liberated

    liberated New Member

    Mar 6, 2012
    United Kingdom
    ROLYGATE WROTE "One change it might cause is to make users employ a slip case to put their mod in when in the pocket or purse. This is probably a good idea anyway for several reasons. Putting a lithium battery powered device that can be operated inadvertently loose in the purse is a bad idea, and has resulted in several incidents. Using some kind of case is far better.

    Regarding the Provari, AFAIK it is designed to run one battery. The EMSS makes it clear that only mods with two batteries inserted have exploded. Unless you intend to insert two batteries, there is no issue.

    In addition, it is likely (but not proven) that no electronic-control mods have exploded - only the normal basic electrical type. This is another reason why a Provari would not be implicated.

    Note also that some mods with electronic controls will not operate with two batteries inserted. This might apply to the Provari.

    EMSS is not in operation until June as that will allow us to work out the wrinkles, for manufacturers to make a decision, and for manufacturers to contact us with their concerns - therefore we cannot give any opinion until that time......"

    Many thanks for this Rolygate. As I would not dream of using two batteries in the Provari if it is only designed for one I found this so reassuring that I was just about to re-order when ( after spending hours going through the posts on Regarding ECF Safety Specification For Metal Tube Mods I found a link to this thread in it My Provari went up in smoke!

    It seems as if the Provari shut off properly but the problem was a faulty battery (even though it was supplied by the vendor).

    My question is would this problem have been detected by the user if he had tested the battery first with a voltage meter even though it did not happen directly after taking it off a charger but one hour into vaping?


    I am completely on your side in this debate but I must say that I still wouldn't be happy with a travelling slipcase being the only thing preventing things getting lodged inside the battery casing as it might solve the problem with pockets and handbags but lots of people must use their PVs at home, on desks and in many situations where paper clips, hair pins or other small objects may get into the casing (let alone the problems with the odd spilt coffee cup) through these rather large vent slits. I may have misunderstood you on this though - Apologies in advance if I have - I am almost a complete newbee...I just started vaping in January.
     
  13. Hoosier

    Hoosier Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 26, 2010
    Indiana
    No way to know since there was no post by the OP indicating a voltmeter test prior to putting the battery into the mod. We also do not know how well the battery was visually inspected by the user. We just know the battery failed and the user was uninjured, physically.

    If you are to have a vent to let gasses escape just in case of a thermal runaway battery, then the vents have to be open. Openings allow things to get inside. The finer you make the openings, the more there have to be. So covering the vent opening with a screen will require a larger area to be cut. This cuts into structural integrity pretty quickly and going to things that eject away in the event of outgassing would make it coffee spill proof, but adds a ballistic component.
     
  14. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 24, 2009
    ECF Towers
    I have no idea what the battery would have shown. It's possible that the charger is faulty, and over-charging the batteries. If that is true then the battery would show over 4.2v when coming off charge - probably substantially more. Another sign is that if you leave the battery for two days, it loses charge.

    There are ways like this to see if the battery is good. A complex method is to check its internal resistance, to see if there is an unexplained rise. But leaving all that aside, there will be unavoidable situations where a battery fails and maybe there is nothing you could have done about it. Or maybe the user made a mistake of some kind - we all do. Therefore a mod needs to be able to protect the user under any fault situation.

    The problem is that as yet no one has suggested a perfect solution. All we know is that if you put large holes, well distributed, in the tube body then it can't explode. This situation requires a simple solution otherwise it won't get fixed - and large gas vent holes is an obvious choice. Actually there are better engineering solutions to the issue but that isn't a viable option here because of the cost, not to mention the fact that all such solutions can be rendered useless by cost-cutting.
     
  15. sailorman

    sailorman Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jun 5, 2010
    The Florida Oil Coast
    No. As it is currently built, the SB would be considered unsafe. Batteries can be stacked by deliberate misuse and in defiance of the manufacturers warnings against stacking batteries. The venting is adequate, which has been proven a couple times, but it does not meet ECF's requirements for big 2" slots.

    IOW, if you are an idiot and stack batteries in it and they explode, the SB will vent well enough. But since it doesn't have three 2" slots in it. It's unsafe.
     
  16. sailorman

    sailorman Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jun 5, 2010
    The Florida Oil Coast
    "2012-03-13 - updated to clarify that only 2-cell metal tube mods are involved, not those that can only accept 1 cell."

    I'm curious what happens when a mod that can only accept one cell today, can accept 2 cells tomorrow because of the availability of a new size of cell. I guess the "safe" mod will suddenly be rendered "unsafe"?
     
  17. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 24, 2009
    ECF Towers
    To be strictly correct, ECF will not be stating any mod is unsafe. At the appropriate time, we will:

    - Tell buyers that some metal tube mods, that can accept two batteries, have a history of explosive events

    - Tell buyers that if a mod complies with EMSS, then we consider it safe



    We will also point out that if a mod does suffer an energetic battery failure while in use, then it is unlikely that absolutely no harm will result to the user - therefore any use of the word 'safe' is relative. EMSS will stop it exploding but it cannot stop a major gas vent incident - nothing can. For example you might consider that a Provari is safe - and I would tend to agree - but that does not stop batteries failing, and there are consequences (see recent incident). Burns are a possibility. Lithium batteries are intrinsically unsafe and the only way they might be safe is if you keep them at arm's length in a fireproof container. Life involves risk.

    There are reasons that any individual mod maker may want to show their product is safe, and they can present that info to buyers. If they prefer to do that rather than comply with EMSS, that is a commercial decision that may or may not be best for them.

    ECF will not be declaring any mod as 'unsafe' or 'dangerous'. We will be pointing out the history, and a way that in our opinion is a good choice for avoidance of serious injury (use an EMSS compliant mod).
     
  18. classwife

    classwife Admin
    Asst Classifieds Mgr
    Ask The Vets Mgr
    Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
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