Regarding ECF Safety Specification For Metal Tube Mods

[hifistud]

Quite the reverse - our aim is specifically to get batteries to blow - we want to know how to repeatably and reliably cause them to go bang. So far, taking batteries more or less at random, we haven't managed it - but we'll keep on going until we do find a way to make it happen at will.

Think about it...

 

[six]

Quite the reverse - our aim is specifically to get batteries to blow - we want to know how to repeatably and reliably cause them to go bang. So far, taking batteries more or less at random, we haven't managed it - but we'll keep on going until we do find a way to make it happen at will.
.

I've said this earlier in this thread: The two sure fire ways (no pun intended) to cause a li-on battery to vent/flame out/explode (whatever word you want to use for "blow up") is heat and/or overcharge. Put a 3.7v battery on a 24v charger and in a couple of minutes--->> Bang. Or, expose a li-on battery to a lot of heat -->> Bang.

If you want to see what happens to a tube mod when the batteries blow up, either run a couple of wires for overcharging through the vent holes or wire them direct to the atty connector and feed it 12-24v at 20-25 amps. Or, like in about a zillion youtube videos, just toss the whole thing in a pot of flaming cooking oil. Get yourself some nice poly-coated plexiglass and build a frame for it so you have somewhere safe to witness it from.

 

[Martö]

Quite the reverse - our aim is specifically to get batteries to blow - we want to know how to repeatably and reliably cause them to go bang. So far, taking batteries more or less at random, we haven't managed it - but we'll keep on going until we do find a way to make it happen at will.

Think about it...

Well when you hit 14,432 degrees Fahrenheit let me know because this is temperature it will take to break the atoms bond for this LiFePO4.

There are other ways but for the tests he's doing he's no where close.

 

[Retriever]

Dumb question time: Are there any quality USA made lithium batteries, or at least some from Japan? If the AW brand is being compromised, then that is a major concern.

 

[six]

or at least some from Japan? If the AW brand is being compromised, then that is a major concern.

Panasonic. --

So far, for what I've read on ECF and the flashlight forums, the counterfeit AWs are easily identified by having a flat top. AW doesn't make flat tops.

 

[Retriever]

Panasonic. --

So far, for what I've read on ECF and the flashlight forums, the counterfeit AWs are easily identified by having a flat top. AW doesn't make flat tops.

Thanks Six! Now if I could find some supplier for the Panasonics I would be all set.

 

[hifistud]

From my own standpoint, I am less interested in batteries venting under charge than I am with failure under "stick it in your mouth and press the button" conditions. Both Garry and I know that it's eminently possible to cause rapid disassembly in charge conditions - what we're trying to find out is how to make batteries fail catastrophically in use.

As for the battery type - how many of the nominal 3v batteries that we use to stack for six volts are LiFePo types?

I've said this earlier in this thread: The two sure fire ways (no pun intended) to cause a li-on battery to vent/flame out/explode (whatever word you want to use for "blow up") is heat and/or overcharge. Put a 3.7v battery on a 24v charger and in a couple of minutes--->> Bang. Or, expose a li-on battery to a lot of heat -->> Bang.

If you want to see what happens to a tube mod when the batteries blow up, either run a couple of wires for overcharging through the vent holes or wire them direct to the atty connector and feed it 12-24v at 20-25 amps. Or, like in about a zillion youtube videos, just toss the whole thing in a pot of flaming cooking oil. Get yourself some nice poly-coated plexiglass and build a frame for it so you have somewhere safe to witness it from.

 

[Martö]

Dumb question time: Are there any quality USA made lithium batteries, or at least some from Japan? If the AW brand is being compromised, then that is a major concern.

Tenergy is Made in Canada

 

[berger]

From my own standpoint, I am less interested in batteries venting under charge than I am with failure under "stick it in your mouth and press the button" conditions. Both Garry and I know that it's eminently possible to cause rapid disassembly in charge conditions - what we're trying to find out is how to make batteries fail catastrophically in use.

As for the battery type - how many of the nominal 3v batteries that we use to stack for six volts are LiFePo types?

perhaps instead of trying make one blow up..create an equivalent force in a different manner somehow..ie explosives, compressed co2 or some other means..then test the mod in that manner

 

[six]

From my own standpoint, I am less interested in batteries venting under charge than I am with failure under "stick it in your mouth and press the button" conditions.

As for the battery type - how many of the nominal 3v batteries that we use to stack for six volts are LiFePo types?

LifeP04 isn't going to blow up for you. If one of the injury accidents was lifep04 batts, I'll be quite amazed. lifep04 batts have a very high overcharge tolerance and they have a heat tolerance that is nearly impossible to achieve.

We can reach back in to 2010 on ECF ---There is a thread here on ECF from 2010 that has pictures of a Golden Greek that endured two separate exploding battery events. Those were li-ons.. --- There are a few other threads like that I have run across here on ECF and on one of the other popular e-cig forums. I have never seen anyone say they blew up lifep04 batteries. I have never seen anyone claim lifep04 batts blew up a flashlight. I have never seen any one ever claim they blew up any lifep04 batts in any circumstances. I think you are testing the wrong batteries.

To find out what the ratio of resisted-to-3.0v li-on vs 3.0v lifep04, you should talk to some of the vendors who sell a lot of batteries. For instance, madvapes started selling lifep04 batts around 6 months ago but has sold internally resisted 3.0v li-on batts for a long time before that. I'd bet hoogie76 could give you a rough idea of how many 6.0v set-ups he has sold in the last 3 years or so and how many are li-on vs how many are lifep04.... and obviously: since they've only been selling lifep04 for a few months, my guess is that the vast majority is li-on.

 

[buGG]

at least two earlier incidents claimed stacked lifepo4 batteries were involved. one is from earlier this year, the "tenergy" batteries, and another i remember (deleted threads nows) from a couple years ago involved what were reportedly lifepo4 cr2 batteries for use in a 14500 device. without ever knowing anuything definitive though, my guess is that both of these incidents, and many more, actually involved counterfeit lico or perhaps even straight up lithium primary batts that were improperly labeled, charged, stacked, used and boom. so i think what all of this is about, from roly and ecf's standpoint, is that you don't always know what you've got, so even when you think you know what you're doing, things can go wrong and the devices are supposed to prevent serious injury in the event that poor quality, improperly charged, mismatched, possibly primaries, damaged, overheated, overworked, fake, different chemistry, etc... find their way into user's mod and potentially make for a critical failure.

 

[six]

at least two earlier incidents claimed stacked lifepo4 batteries were involved. one is from earlier this year, the "tenergy" batteries, and another i remember (deleted threads nows) from a couple years ago involved what were reportedly lifepo4 cr2 batteries for use in a 14500 device. .

The second one is the one that was reported on TWs forums (forgot my log in and don't do business with TW anymore...so I'm not even going to try to look it up, to be honest). I haven't looked at that thread in a long time, but my recollection is that it turned out to be someone making up a story. I'm not sure if that came out on TWs forum or if it came out on another one, but that's my best recollection.

The recent event - all that has been shared with the public is that there were 123a sized batteries being charged in the room where the event occurred. ECF may have more info that hasn't been shared, but I wouldn't be privy to it if that is so. I'm not sure what else has them sponsoring/endorsing/discussing (not sure of ECF roll in the battery testing - it really isn't clear) the attempts to blow up batteries that really don't blow up even if they do fail.

I'm fairly convinced that the likelihood is that these were as you said : counterfeit, mislabeled, etc etc etc. Most likely li-on batts sold as lifep04. I can make a li-on batt blow up any time I want. I don't think anyone will blow up a lifep04 batt without some really extraordinary conditions.

 

[rolygate]

at least two earlier incidents claimed stacked lifepo4 batteries were involved. ......... my guess is that both of these incidents, and many more, actually involved counterfeit lico or perhaps even straight up lithium primary batts that were improperly labeled, charged, stacked, used and boom.

Yes. I have been guilty of assuming that Tenergy batteries are poor quality and caused these events. In fact recent tests have shown they are very capable, and could be given a much higher C rating. Also, we also found out that Tenergy Li-Fe batteries are widely counterfeited. Some have said the only way to know you are getting real ones is to buy them at Radio Shack and get the bubble pack with the charger in (an expensive way of buying them...).

Probably, the 'Tenergy Li-FePo4' batteries that failed were - as you say - most likely cheap Li-ion fakes. Maybe we will have to post a list of genuine distributors or something - AW's main guy in the US, and the Tenergy authorised wholesaler.

..... so i think what all of this is about, from roly and ecf's standpoint, is that you don't always know what you've got, so even when you think you know what you're doing, things can go wrong and the devices are supposed to prevent serious injury in the event that poor quality, improperly charged, mismatched, possibly primaries, damaged, overheated, overworked, fake, different chemistry, etc... find their way into user's mod and potentially make for a critical failure.

This is correct. I see no point in going after the battery sellers, or trying to educate users in how to employ perfect care for their batteries. Some will not buy a meter, or couldn't/wouldn't use it. Basic education is good, for sure, but I tend to think that vendors should do more here. For example, put a battery care sheet in with every mod sold.

Whatever happens, whatever you tell people, and however we or anyone else go about trying to get people to be sensible with batteries:

- People will make mistakes
- The wrong batteries will be used
- Chargers will go wrong and the owner won't know
- Fake batteries will be put into a mod
- Best practices will be followed - but with rubbish batteries, this makes no difference
- And: I can't tell what my batteries are, the label says 'X' but how am I to know different?

Therefore a mod must take care of business. That means if the batteries fail violently then it must not explode, and especially: the top end must not blow off first. There need to be weak points lower down and a way for the gas to get to them down the tube past swollen batteries - or just mill slots along the length of the tube and fix it that way. The slots can be filled or covered one way or another if you want.

 

[buGG]

i appreciate the recommendatons and ideas, but like most i'm weary of potential rules and regulations. i realize that's not what's actually happening, but i also realize that's the perception by many.

nevertheless, i'm most concerned about the batteries, as it's a losing battle even trying to get a grasp on what's out there and what's to come. the best thing about the forum though, also happens to be the worst. i've learned a lot here, but i routinely see posts or threads about how ****fire batteries can't be counterfeit because they're too cheap to begin with, or panasonic (the number one counterfeited primary) isn't counterfeited among the many chinese or otherwise untraceable sources for their rechargeable lico cells, or that based on this graph or this chart with unknown sourced cells, this battery is the clear winner, or that a cheaper version of a battery with an off the chart pcb threshold is the way to go, and much, much more. recommendations for different setups and actual uses for the batteries is a whole other issue. the information is damning, and that won't stop...new experts are born here everyday and more members await their advice. that can't be policed and shouldn't, so just having the option of devices that take any number of these possibilities into consideration is useful.

by the way, aw can be contacted directly about the legitimacy of any vendor of his cells. you can't do that with panasonic and i'm not sure about tenergy. but considering that, with some exception, many of the authorized aw "e-cig" vendors also carry and sell counterfeit ****fire batteries, potentially counterfeit chargers, and batteries from sources like shenzhen e-young/ e-fest that also sell counterfeit aw batteries, fake imrs, and fake chargers, it's going to be impossible to know if/when some of those get thrown into the mix from the otherwise "authorized" vendors as well. money will always matter most to one or more links in the chain.

 

[Martö]

Seems that folks selling the batteries to the public should be the ones to verify they are the real deal. I think if they don't it opens the door to lawsuits among many other Federal laws under the FTC. It's one thing to sell a knock off shirt to someone but to sell a battery that can and will cause bodily harm is another.

added this below

It appears that manufactures of true products are suing retailers selling fakes.

 

[hifistud]

I think we're finally getting towards the crux of the matter. The fault doesn't lie with the mod maker any more than it lies with a car manufacturer in the situation where you put the wrong fuel in the tank.

Expecting a manufacturer to butcher a design in order to take account of vendors/wholesalers flogging dubious batteries simply allows those shysters to keep on flogging their potentially dangerous wares. "oh, it'll be fine - if my dangerous batteries go pop, the mod will handle it - nobody will get hurt".

There are standards for batteries - UL standards. ECF might be better advising its users to only buy batteries approved to UL standards from vendors who guarantee their wares are the real deal. If it's all but impossible to blow up a battery that conforms to the standards, then that's what ought to be sold, and only that. ECF might do better to out the vendors who sell dodgy batteries - because if the batteries don't blow, then the mods can't.

If you went to a filling station, and the pump delivered diesel instead of gasoline into your fuel tank and your car engine died as a result, whose fault is it? Patently, it's not Ford or Rolls Royce - it's whoever put the wrong fuel into the filling station's storage tanks.

The problem is not with the mod, it's with the batteries. ECF is going after the wrong people. That simple.

 

[pumasforpets]

Interesting. Now I'd like to know if there has ever been a case of a genuine battery going nuclear in a mod.

This looks a bit like ECF going after the easiest target. Mod builders don't tend to have the funds to contest wrongs against them like distributors and wholesalers. They have to comply or face losing business whereas a more well funded enterprise could take action.

 

[440BB]

I think that the immediate requirement should be that every mod comes with thorough instructions about which batteries to use, how to place them in the mod (positive end goes where?) and what type of charger to use. That would give each new mod user a chance to make better decisions. To be more certain that users are informed, a sticker on each new mod with battery guidelines and an engraved indication of Positive/Negative would help mods approach the consumer protection standards we need to reach as this industry expands. A standardized instruction template could be provided by ECF as a means to help get this started, just like the ECF cards are helpful.

 

[markfm]

Other than the UN38.3 test, which is related to safe cargo transport, what standard test do you know of?

There was a well known incident last year of a highly regarded ecf supplier getting counterfeit batteries. Not their fault, it happened downstream in the supply chain. They moved smartly to make good, but they had no rational way of knowing the batteries were bad. The problem with counterfeits is that they are designed to look like something that is good/popular, they will put whatever is needed on the packaging to make them look real.

There was another incident recently, what sounds like a well known imr, again bought from a highly regarded supplier, going into a bad thermal condition. Either that battery was counterfeit, another vendor suckered, else the battery was real but happened to be an outlier, else something bad happened to it after reaching the user.

1) The US storefronts are relatively small, don't have the volume to get large shipments direct from the battery oem, with a rock solid chain of custody.

2) Even if a product is the real deal, it may be a production outlier, or damaged in transit, or damaged by the end user (mechanical abuse or cruddy charger).

You need a good battery, and a good charger, and to not use it if the battery has suffered trauma, and even then there can be those pesky outlier mfg defects.

 

[tj99959]

The fault doesn't lie with the mod maker any more than it lies with a car manufacturer in the situation where you put the wrong fuel in the tank.

Guess you are to young to remember when unleaded gas first came out, and manufacturers had to put in smaller diameter fuel necks so that a leaded fuel nozzle wouldn't go in.

Wish it was as simple as just saying "it's the batteries", but it is not. How many PV's out there have the ability to short out a battery?
Are the slots the ultimate answer? I think not .... a simple fuse would do a hell of a lot more. IMO we need to be looking at all of the answeres, not just one.