Class Action Exploding Devices

[Stubby]

And then there's the manufacturers that clearly don't test their products before selling them to unsuspecting mech users. Whoever made this thing clearly didn't use their head. And the vendor probably wouldn't have suspected anything's wrong either. But whose going to get hurt in the end?

The user and anyone else that's within a 10 foot radius when it explodes.



Mechanicals are just dangerous....period.

And in the hands an idiot, they're bombs.

I would be hard pressed to think of any product on the market that is sold as a common consumer good (which is how mechanicals are sold) that require as much knowledge and vigilance as mechanicals do to use safely. Many are sold with little to no warnings which in the world of consumer goods is bizarre, besides being completely irresponsible. It is entirely predictable that bad things will and do happen, and will continue to happen.

The interesting part of discussions like this is that there is nearly always a piling on and vilifying of the victim, and hardly a whisper on the responsibility of the industry and community. This is the same industry and community that has cheered on cloud contest and all the other nonsense that has gone on (ultra high watts and sub-ohms to name a few).

One thing we can be sure of is more people will continue to get hurt.

 

[Lessifer]

Skateboards, bicycles, motorcycles, cars, bows, guns, tools, power tools, there are plenty of examples of consumer goods that if used improperly, or inexpertly, can lead to physical harm of the user or bystanders. There's still an incredibly low number of incidents over the past seven years.

As for responsibility for teaching the consumer, I don't believe it's my responsibility as a member of the "community" though I do what I can. I also don't believe it's the responsibility of the vendors, though I'm surprised more of them don't do more, simply as a CYA move.

If a person buys a mod from fasttech, a battery from ebay, and a charger from amazon, and the battery vents in their pocket where the person was carrying it unprotected, who is at fault?

 

[Shekinahsgroom]

Skateboards, bicycles, motorcycles, cars, bows, guns, tools, power tools, there are plenty of examples of consumer goods that if used improperly, or inexpertly, can lead to physical harm of the user or bystanders. There's still an incredibly low number of incidents over the past seven years.

As for responsibility for teaching the consumer, I don't believe it's my responsibility as a member of the "community" though I do what I can. I also don't believe it's the responsibility of the vendors, though I'm surprised more of them don't do more, simply as a CYA move.

If a person buys a mod from fasttech, a battery from ebay, and a charger from amazon, and the battery vents in their pocket where the person was carrying it unprotected, who is at fault?

Skateboards = generally only harms the user, exceptions would be a skate park where one could be launched. (Not a valid comparison)
Bicycles = generally only harms the user, exceptions would be races with bystanders very near the proximity of obvious danger. (Not a valid comparison)
Motorcycles = Requires a license, nuff said. (Not a valid comparison)
Cars = Requires a license, nuff said. (Not a valid comparison)
Bows = weapon, designed to kill. (Not a valid comparison)
Guns = Requires a license, weapon that's designed to kill. (Not a valid comparison)

Mechanical mods don't have any warning signs of potential danger, that includes the user.
Everything that you listed above has OBVIOUS dangers.

Everything else below is comparable (tools) since that's essentially what a vaping device actually is; it's a tool.
It's not a toy to be used for entertainment, it's not a mode of transportation and it's not a weapon.
But it can be all of those things in the hands of the ignorant or irresponsible.

So how could the FDA ensure that a mech could only be used as a tool?
Option A: Require manufacturers to design and build them with protection (i.e. ban the current unprotected designs).
Option B: Require a license to operate.

 

[Stubby]

As for responsibility for teaching the consumer, I don't believe it's my responsibility as a member of the "community" though I do what I can. I also don't believe it's the responsibility of the vendors, though I'm surprised more of them don't do more, simply as a CYA move.

If a person buys a mod from fasttech, a battery from ebay, and a charger from amazon, and the battery vents in their pocket where the person was carrying it unprotected, who is at fault?

If I remember correctly you are the person who claimed that regulated has essentially the same risk as mechanicals, just different. Besides being a flat out lie, something any first year electrical engineer student would tell you, it is the type of bad information that gets people in trouble. And now after misinforming people, you claim no responsibility.

I do advocacy, and it gets very difficult to make a case for harm reduction when mechanicals are blowing up in people faces. Besides that the industry and vaping community refuse to take responsibility for essentially anything. It is a big problem and you are part of it.

It would likely be a good thing if some vape shops and venders got successfully sued. It might help pull the industry out of its adolescent binges and force it to grow up.

 

[sofarsogood]

Civil lawsuits are an alternative to government regulations. The CPSC often issues warnings and nothing is banned per se. The people who use mechs know they are risky even if they under estimated the consequences. Young men, classic risk takers, are over represented in the accidents. We aren't reading about granny vapers getting injured by mechs. Tobacco money is so important to so many people that the demonizing and lies are inevitable. Vape shops are under all sorts of pressures so they push more expensive rigs and liquid with too little nic for most beginngers. I think the advice they were giving 2 years ago was better than today's. In the mean time banning vaping while tobacco remains for sale the same as always is going to be a tough challenge for governments.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Civil lawsuits are an alternative to government regulations. The CPSC often issues warnings and nothing is banned per se. The people who use mechs know they are risky even if they under estimated the consequences. Young men, classic risk takers, are over represented in the accidents. We aren't reading about granny vapers getting injured by mechs. Tobacco money is so important to so many people that the demonizing and lies are inevitable. Vape shops are under all sorts of pressures so they push more expensive rigs and liquid with too little nic for most beginngers. I think the advice they were giving 2 years ago was better than today's. In the mean time banning vaping while tobacco remains for sale the same as always is going to be a tough challenge for governments.

The end result…synergy with "health" advocacy and BT radically empowered the first and largely indemnified the latter creating the dependency of gov at all levels to cigarette taxes. It is this last addiction that is the grave and present danger to all the public. While I may agree with much of the argument concerning misuse vape hardware is a tool, not the cause.

Good luck.

 

[Lessifer]

If I remember correctly you are the person who claimed that regulated has essentially the same risk as mechanicals, just different. Besides being a flat out lie, something any first year electrical engineer student would tell you, it is the type of bad information that gets people in trouble. And now after misinforming people, you claim no responsibility.

I do advocacy, and it gets very difficult to make a case for harm reduction when mechanicals are blowing up in people faces. Besides that the industry and vaping community refuse to take responsibility for essentially anything. It is a big problem and you are part of it.

It would likely be a good thing if some vape shops and venders got successfully sued. It might help pull the industry out of its adolescent binges and force it to grow up.

So... You misrepresent what I've said in the past, misinterpret what I say now, and fail to answer the question in the post that you replied to.

Perhaps it was my choice of wording that confused you.

First off, I don't believe I've ever tried to quantify the risks of mechs or regulated mods, other than to say that by the current numbers they are both incredibly low. What I do say on the subject is that both mechs and regulated mods have risks, because they both use batteries, and the risks come from different failures. The reason I say that is because I think it is irresponsible for people to tell new vapers to "just get a regulated mod, then you won't have to worry about it." Anyone who is using the batteries we are using should learn about them and their potential dangers.

Now, here's where it may have gotten confusing for you. I said it's not my responsibility, nor is it the vendor's responsibility, and then I asked who is at fault. What I meant by those two statements and one question is, legal responsibility. I do try to help people with their questions about safety, but I know that it is ultimately up to the person using the equipment to learn. Vendors can, and should, provide whatever information they are able to, but again the responsibility lies with the user. The only time a vendor would be at fault, IMO, is if they sold someone components that should not be used together and neglected to inform the person. Like selling an atomizer with a spring loaded center pin and a direct to battery connection mod.

So, I'll ask the question again, if an unprotected battery vents in someone's pocket, who is at fault? This appears to be one of the most, if not the most common occurrences. I don't think it matters where the person got any of the components, the responsibility for learning is on the user. Or, if it's the industry and community's responsibility, then we SHOULD only have devices with proprietary connections and non-removable batteries.

 

[skoony]

The need for sensible regulation will always exist.

As a thinking man I would have to agree that on the face of it sensible regulations
make sense.

On the other hand what kind of sensible regulations can control the manufacturing
and or DIY'ing of a coil battery and switch and still remain sensible? From our
opponents point of view the whole of the deeming regulations are very sensible.
One can see what we wound up with there.

Do I have the answer? In a broad sense no except,leave me alone.

Mike

 

[Maestro]

Plugging a cell phone battery into a laptop isn't safe, but it's not an issue because you can't get it to fit. There should be a battery designed for ecigs so that the uninformed can't mistakenly use the wrong battery. However, that would give the FDA a stranglehold on the industry. Hence, it's the government who is promoting resistance to this kind of standarization. It's a shame because it doesn't have to be this way.

 

[DC2]

Now, here's where it may have gotten confusing for you. I said it's not my responsibility, nor is it the vendor's responsibility, and then I asked who is at fault. What I meant by those two statements and one question is, legal responsibility. I do try to help people with their questions about safety, but I know that it is ultimately up to the person using the equipment to learn. Vendors can, and should, provide whatever information they are able to, but again the responsibility lies with the user.

This is probably the only topic I disagree with you on.
And not just you, but many others that I respect and almost always agree with.

But no.

It is not the responsibility of the user unless they know they have that responsibility.
Most people simply do not know there is something they need to know about batteries.

Some people can't even fathom that concept, and call everyone stupid.
I really don't understand that, and never will.
In fact, I outright reject it.

There are plenty of things that are dangerous if used improperly.
And all of them are obvious to a person with an IQ of 45 or greater.

This is not the case with batteries, and their applications with respect to vaping.

But the more people get injured, the more obvious it will become.
And we ARE getting there, so in the end you guys WILL be right.

But right now, you're not quite right.

 

[Lessifer]

This is probably the only topic I disagree with you on.
And not just you, but many others that I respect and almost always agree with.

But no.

It is not the responsibility of the user unless they know they have that responsibility.
Most people simply do not know there is something they need to know about batteries.

Some people can't even fathom that concept, and call everyone stupid.
I really don't understand that, and never will.
In fact, I outright reject it.

There are plenty of things that are dangerous if used improperly.
And all of them are obvious to a person with an IQ of 45 or greater.

This is not the case with batteries, and their application in vaping.

But the more people get injured, the more obvious it will become.
And we ARE getting there, so in the end you guys WILL be right.

But right now, you're not quite right.

I don't think you believe that vendors should be legally responsible for teaching people about battery safety, which is what my post was about.

I do think that vendors should make best efforts to inform their customers, and I believe that many do. I also don't think it would hurt things to stick warning stickers on batteries and mods, though the batteries, which are the important part, will be difficult since the manufacturers of them do not condone their use in this industry.

Here's a question that I don't know the answer to, if you are a retailer and you sell a sony vtc battery, which is not labeled for individual sale, can you legally put a warning sticker on that battery? Would that open you up to some extra liability? Preferably the manufacturer would affix the label and any warnings, but again, they don't intend their product to be used in this way.

So, I agree with you, that as a good person you should try to inform people when they are making decisions that could be dangerous. I still maintain that the only responsible party is the consumer.

 

[DC2]

I don't think you believe that vendors should be legally responsible for teaching people about battery safety, which is what my post was about.

I almost said that yes, in fact, I do.
But then I read the rest of your response.

I do think that vendors should make best efforts to inform their customers, and I believe that many do. I also don't think it would hurt things to stick warning stickers on batteries and mods, though the batteries, which are the important part, will be difficult since the manufacturers of them do not condone their use in this industry.

I think vendors should be held legally responsible for not making efforts to inform their customers.
That does bring into question what exactly such an "effort" would entail.

Maybe that's the big question here?
I know some will disagree, but I already outright rejected that.


Those that don't make some kind of valid effort may well be playing a lottery.
And if they lose, they will probably be sued out of existence.

 

[Lessifer]

Those that don't make some kind of valid effort may well be playing a lottery.
And if they lose, they will probably be sued out of existence.

I think this is already the case. The courts will decide who is responsible, and whether or not they met their responsibility.

Let's take an online vendor. If they post warnings about battery safety, and even warnings about which devices should not be used together, have they done their part? They haven not guaranteed anyone has read the warnings or understood them, just that they are visible. Can you hold B&M vendors to a different legal standard? What if they're not even vape vendors?

Let's say I bought this battery NURE18650-1 - Nuon 18650 Rechargeable Lithium Ion Flashlight Cell at Batteries Plus Bulbs
It probably has some information and warnings on the packaging about not short circuiting the cell, maybe even about not carrying unprotected. If I put this in a mod and it vents, is that the fault of whoever sold me my mod? Batteries plus? Nuon?

 

[DC2]

Let's take an online vendor. If they post warnings about battery safety, and even warnings about which devices should not be used together, have they done their part? They haven not guaranteed anyone has read the warnings or understood them, just that they are visible. Can you hold B&M vendors to a different legal standard? What if they're not even vape vendors?

Well, like I said, that does seem to be the big question.
And it's a question the courts will decide, not us.

We're just a bunch of doofii pounding on a keyboard.
(What is the plural of doofus? doofuses?)

 

[Lessifer]

Well, like I said, that does seem to be the big question.
And it's a question the courts will decide, not us.

We're just a bunch of doofii pounding on a keyboard.
(What is the plural of doofus? doofuses?)

I'm going to go with doofuses

Here's my thinking, saying it is the consumer's responsibility doesn't mean that vendors shouldn't be informing them. Shifting the responsibility away from the consumer, IMO, decreases the likelihood that they will actually learn how to be safe. If the consumer can't/won't learn to be safe, then the industry will likely be forced to bubble wrap the products, and if that happens I hope we all like cigalikes and pod mods.

 

[Shekinahsgroom]

Let's say I bought this battery NURE18650-1 - Nuon 18650 Rechargeable Lithium Ion Flashlight Cell at Batteries Plus Bulbs
It probably has some information and warnings on the packaging about not short circuiting the cell, maybe even about not carrying unprotected. If I put this in a mod and it vents, is that the fault of whoever sold me my mod? Batteries plus? Nuon?

What if I put this battery into the correct flashlight...aaaand use the flashlight as a hammer and the battery explodes?

I get what you're saying Less, that the responsibility is on the user.
But like DC2 (and Stubby) pointed out, "It is not the responsibility of the user unless they know they have that responsibility.".

Their POV's are absolutely correct and the very same point that I've repeatedly tried to make.
A mech requires advanced knowledge that most people just cannot comprehend nor have the patience to learn.
They just wanna buy the device and use it, like any other kind of hand tool.
There are no warning signs on mech's that inform the user....

"Advanced knowledge of battery safety REQUIRED before use! Ignoring this warning could result in extreme physical harm to the user and anyone within a 10' radius to include (but not limited to): loss of fingers, loss of facial features, skull fractures, fires, even death."

(I read an article just last night, a mech broke the user's NECK when it exploded in his face and now he's paralyzed. )

Young father may never walk again after e-cigarette EXPLODES in his mouth and breaks neck

Now, an uneducated consumer would read warning like that and immediately KNOW....."this isn't the mod for me!" But as it is today, there are no such warnings. You'd be lucky to even get an instruction manual that's written in clear English let alone any kind of warnings.

And then there's instance like the Cherry Bomber, which could seriously harm even an educated user.

 

[ENAUD]

Broken neck and might never walk again, that's pretty real deal right there. What's it going to take to get the point across to some of you that the general population isn't equipped to deal with the realities of the inherant dangers posed by "some" of these mech mods that are being sold? People as a rule are not that bright when it comes to understanding that this little pretty vapemthingy might actually be a bomb in disguise... Just sayin'
And the whole 510 direct to battery faux hybrid connector thing, if it fits it should work is the current mentality because in the tech world, if it fits it should work. Hybrids should be a hybrid thread, and not a 510. Anyone selling a 510 direct to battery mod should have their balls sued to the walls if someone gets hurt from one, even if the screw a Subtank mini on to it. it just shouldn't be done or sold...

 

[Lessifer]

That article is from 2015 and if what is pictured is supposed to be the mod that "exploded" there's no damage, other than the glass on the tank being broken.

This was discussed back then, and I don't believe anyone ever got more information, so all we have is the guy's word for it that whatever happened to him was due to his mech blowing up.

 

[MacTechVpr]

This is probably the only topic I disagree with you on.
And not just you, but many others that I respect and almost always agree with.

But no.

It is not the responsibility of the user unless they know they have that responsibility.
Most people simply do not know there is something they need to know about batteries.

Some people can't even fathom that concept, and call everyone stupid.
I really don't understand that, and never will.
In fact, I outright reject it.

There are plenty of things that are dangerous if used improperly.
And all of them are obvious to a person with an IQ of 45 or greater.

This is not the case with batteries, and their applications with respect to vaping.

But the more people get injured, the more obvious it will become.
And we ARE getting there, so in the end you guys WILL be right.

But right now, you're not quite right.

Funny, I take the devil's advocate position here (in both directions) but it's unavoidably evident. There is no way for a retailer to anticipate to what extent each and every product they sell might be misused. However, if on the other hand a merchandiser is aware of a common error or misapplication, i.e. the inter-operability of certain batteries, a legal argument of liability perhaps could ensue…if not a punch in the nose.

Your barber doesn't tell you the drunk under the barber pole swats at his customers (and you happen to be the lucky one to find out!).

Can't remember if I ever saw a car dealer insist or recommend driver's lessons. Maybe, before my time? But licensing was really never intended to guarantee proficiency or intelligence behind the wheel; rather, to just collect a tax.

No, I'm afraid that we can make up a rule or device for gov to control for just about anything. But none that I've seen that cures foolish. That seems to happen no matter.

Good luck.

 

[Shekinahsgroom]

That article is from 2015 and if what is pictured is supposed to be the mod that "exploded" there's no damage, other than the glass on the tank being broken.

This was discussed back then, and I don't believe anyone ever got more information, so all we have is the guy's word for it that whatever happened to him was due to his mech blowing up.

More info here:

Questions Loom: Exploding Vape Leaves Man With Broken Neck

Before the surgery, Cordero was in complete pain. His sister said he was shocked that his vape had exploded. “If he knew that he was dealing with something that would explode on him, he definitely wouldn’t have put himself in that situation,” she said.

This is certainly not the first vape explosion, but it’s definitely the most severe. The US Fire Administration said faulty batteries are the root cause of the explosions. “E-cigarette manufacturers should consider changing to a different style of electrical connection,” a study said. “The inclusion of protection circuits into the e-cigarette device would improve battery safety.”

There's a thread here that talks about the suspicious nature of the in-tact mod, but what's not clear is ....was the one in the image a back-up mech that he had with him (spare batt inside) and the remnants of the tank were found? Who knows...

Some peeps in the ECF thread suggest that maybe he got his ... kicked, dropped his mod and the glass broke. And that is plausible considering that the mod pictured isn't damaged at all.

I think that the key point falls onto the party that authorities spoke with (assuming the vendor that sold it to him) that refused to give a statement.