Class at Hospital - "Lithium battery in ecigarettes release carcinogenics." Help me respond to this?

[MJ12]

... Next, they'll come up with Vapers Anonymous?

And all this time I thought 'VA' stood for Veterans Administration, or the abbreviation for the state of Virginia... learn something new every day

 

[Monkey7]

Ah. Bet my brother would have some choice words.

A lil' background. I took after my grandpa who was an electrician. Went into computers and play around with electronics as a hobby. But I'm the only one. Grandma was an RN. Mom was an RN. My brother is an RN. His wife is an RN.

I'm surrounded!

Mom was a DoN then hospital administrator before retiring. My brother is a DoN who doesn't want to go into "admin" any further as he actually likes the nursing side, not the "suits" side. Anyway, I can't wait to tell him this one. I can already see his expression.

(It'll be a cross between an "eye roll" and "bit into a lemon")

I'm also the lone smoker. When I found vaping and actually quit smoking, there damn near was dancing in the streets. I mean, you can't swing a cat in this family without hitting an RN and you can imagine the lectures I got over the years. My mother thinks "that vapor thing" is the best thing since the invention of the wheel. She thought I'd never quit. I thought the same thing. She's well aware vaping has nicotine and shrugged it off. Said, right off, "that's not the dangerous part of smoking".

This is a funny kind of collision between my stomping ground and theirs. Also, good thing my mom is retired and not their boss. Oh there would be a meeting. Oh yes.

(I am something of a trouble maker. I'm just very, very quiet about it. You know... "bug in ear" kinda thing...)

You are both my Information Guru and Comic Relief! I love your knowledge on this topic.. makes perfect sense, given you're an electronics aficionado.

I'd be very interested in what your brother says.. eye rolls and all. And, if he's ever heard anything within the realm of what was intimated to us.

There's this "great divide" between the RNs with Bachelors and those who completed "just" the 2 year RN programs (me). There's a good measure of "Oh, so you don't want to bridge UP to your Bachelor's for Administration?" .. always directed with a lovely smile Translation: "Oh? So you want to stay in the lowly non-administrative positions for the rest-of-your-life??" Fun times. Fun times.

What can I say? I prefer patients and families to scheduling and supervising

Slightly OT: I have heard of UK physicians prescribing ecigs as a cessation methodoloy - which flies in the face of logic, if they were dangerous. I don't know any MDs in my US hospital who Rx them; or anywhere here for that matter. Nonetheless, maybe the UK has more accurate studies for their medical personnel. I'm out of my league for UK procedure, though.. so I'll shut up on that ; )

 

[gthompson]

I'm not trying to be defensive, but I just can't see how I could inhale any toxic fumes from a malfunctioning battery without being aware there is something totally wrong. Unless I place the bottom hole on the mod into my mouth and take a drag.

The really sad part is, they were talking about a normally operating battery, not a malfunctioning battery.

 

[ciggfree]

Me - definitely not a expert; I just try to keep an open mind and think logically. If lithium batteries were venting carcinogens during use, I doubt that they would be used by so many professionals - fire fighters, police etc. And yes, they are used in medical equipment. I do know that there are many types and many chemical makeups.
By deductive reasoning, one would have to consider that out of these many types, a few may be harmful. I know that lead is a neurotoxin and us fishers have used it for years - weights, lures etc. Nearly every tire on every vehicle out there has a lead balancing weight on it.
My point is - a minimal amount of a bad thing should not be so scary. I do think that one should not make any statements about a item without some proof - wars have started this way.


All things in moderation.

 

[RosaJ]

The really sad part is, they were talking about a normally operating battery, not a malfunctioning battery.

Well the same logic applies to that scenario. Then having a cell phone on a clip on clothes would be worse, because the cell phone is always on.

I think we can agree that the person conducting the meeting is just parroting something he/she heard or was told by a superior, or is against vaping altogether.

I personally do not believe ecigs are a cancer causing ticking bomb.

 

[Monkey7]

Mini-update: Cautiously optimistic.

My supervisor responded to my email. In part --> "I will look into the request and see what I can ascertain." (and) "Check in following your shift tomorrow."

Good news: Information forthcoming.

Bad news: She wants to see me. I was hoping for a link or email attachment sans face-to-face.

Really, vapers, as mentioned previously, she is intimidation-central (to everyone). She construes questioning Administration as the 8th deadly sin.

But hey, I'm ready to take one on the chin!

 

[JasonK94Z]

Doctors. You mean those people with no common sense that have to go run and look in a book to find out what's wrong with you? Or diagnose you with whatever is the latest trend? Treat you with the medicine the last sales person told them about?

The people the OP is talkin about need to stick to health and leave the batteries to the electrical engineers.

 

[RosaJ]

You can do it! Print the article on the Drexel study and give it to her. If she questions the discharge into the clearo/carto, then show her your pv and explain its components. Be respectful, and let her know that ecigs are saving lives every day and you are an advocate for real information and not hearsay.

Of course, if she comes back and says "thou shalt do as I say unquestioningly" then thank her for her time and walk out. There are a lot of hospitals around and with your experience, they're probably rubbing their hands to bring you over to their ranks. That's the way it used to be seven years ago.

 

[Monkey7]

And all this time I thought 'VA' stood for Veterans Administration, or the abbreviation for the state of Virginia... learn something new every day

I apologize. As an Air Force brat myself.. I hang my head in shame.

I guess it should be PVFA.. PV Fanatics Anonymous?

 

[John_]

I'm sure other people have said this but, the "myth of exploding batteries" Lithium-ion batteries can and will exploded if the battery is damaged/poorly constructed or treated improperly.

Hello,

I attended a class at the hospital a few days ago. I'm a nurse and we occasionally have 'continued learning' meetings. Among the many topics covered were ecigs.

Paraphrasing slightly, the instructor (nurse) said:

'Lithium batteries in ecigarettes are known to be carcinogenic. When the lithium batteries become warm/hot, the carcinogenic fumes leak from the device and are inhaled.'

This portion of the meeting was very brief. She didn't mention any other so-called dangers and quickly moved on to another topic.

After the class, I did approach and ask if she had any literature on the topic, which she did not. That was Monday.

On Tuesday, I asked an ER MD on my shift if she knew anything about the lithium battery/ecig carcinogenic connection. She didn't, but suggested I speak with another MD (an oncologist). Yesterday, he was finally on my shift and I inquired. He stated, again paraphrasing slightly: 'If lithium batteries are heated, yes they emit carcinogens.' I followed up with ecigs specifically, to which he responded: 'If you're inhaling in close proximity to a heated lithium battery, you're breathing carcinogens' and off he went.

I went home and tried Googling anything/everything to find information on this supposed link, but came up with very little. Maybe I'm not searching accurately.

Now, let me state right now - No one can say anything that will pry my pv from my cold dead hands. But, I'm very curious now, given what I've been told this week from separate sources.

Can someone please enlighten me?

Note: I did search the forum before posting, using the keywords lithium battery / carcinogenic, and could not find anything. It appeared most of the posts were directed toward the myth of 'exploding batteres' and/or carcinogenics related to other things, but not lithium batteries. I apologize in advance if my question has been asked, and I missed it during my search.

Thanks

Adding another note:

This is supposed to be different than batteries used in cell phones, for example, because the PV has a carrier agent (the vape / smoke itself via pg/vg), unlike a cell phone battery, which does not have a carrier agent.

 

[peraspera]

...Depending on the topic(s) of these meetings, the presenter could be someone assigned to my particular hospital. Or, more often than not, they're assigned to the network (the network of hospitals, example TriStar, HCA, etc). In short, they often are not someone I see on a regular basis or who teach from a manual. Rather, from memos issued by Administration. We are given summaries of the material discussed, because we have to sign off on them. But the summary sheets rarely contain the data to substantiate *why* we're being told, what we're being told. For example, if we're informed that pediatric patients presenting without an adult are to see certain personnel (social worker, etc), we're not told why Admin made that decision - we just follow the directive.
...
But, I want to absolutely qualify what they're saying. I want to see which end of the spectrum their information lands. Dangerous, negligible, or without basis.

Right now, I'm leaning toward "negligible," based on what people are telling me here. However, I know my hospital isn't pulling the information 'out of a hat', because that's too litigious.

I just think they're blowing "something" out of proportion, and I'm going to find out what that something is.

It's child's play to torture small bits of data into outright, bald-faced lies. It might be time to ask yourself a few hard questions. Do you think that your administration and teacher are actually more interested in protecting the health of their patients or protecting their own financial and cultural interests in maintaining the snake oil status quo of big pharma's quit smoking products?

 

[Monkey7]

You can do it! Print the article on the Drexel study and give it to her. If she questions the discharge into the clearo/carto, then show her your pv and explain its components. Be respectful, and let her know that ecigs are saving lives every day and you are an advocate for real information and not hearsay.

Of course, if she comes back and says "thou shalt do as I say unquestioningly" then thank her for her time and walk out. There are a lot of hospitals around and with your experience, they're probably rubbing their hands to bring you over to their ranks. That's the way it used to be seven years ago.

You're too kind, thanks.

That's excellent advice. I'm not going to bring my PV in - because I don't want to give the impression my request for information is "personal."

I want her to think I'm just an "industrious employee" who simply desires further understanding on a procedure.

But, I *am* going to ask if she would mind if I contacted any of the source(s) related to the document(s). That way, when I do, she won't perceive it as "going over her head," without consent, which is a big no-no. Though, I doubt she'll say no. I just have to have ask, first. Diplomacy. Politics :/

Then.. I'll blast the source with documents.

 

[Frankenmizer]

This just in on the ECF newswire...*ticker sound*

Just Had Battery Vent

Just about everything has risk associated with it.

 

[HDVaper]

I call "BS" on this one. ANTZ propaganda!!

 

[AgentAnia]

I've been reading this thread with great interest, both because of the (possibly harmful tho I doubt it) battery questions, and becuase of your particular situation, Monkey7.

I think you'll do just fine tomorrow! You're not going in to your supervisor as a vaper who disbelieves something you heard in a meeting. You're going in as a responsible, conscientious, thorough health-care professional, whose job it is to question every bit of data, follow through by researching supporting facts, so you can give your patients the best reliable and up-to-date advice based on sound medical science.

(The fact that supporting research probably doesn't exist will be icing on the cake, IMO! )

Please do let us know how the meeting goes. I for one will be rooting for you!

 

[Monkey7]

Do you think that your administration and teacher are actually more interested in protecting the health of their patients or protecting their own financial and cultural interests in maintaining the snake oil status quo of big pharma's quit smoking products?

Yes, I think it's possible. But, I don't think they're "bold face lying."

I think, if anything, they're taking some data they "discovered" and blowing it out of proportion.

For example, I remember reading a year ago about an FDA study on diethylene glycol being detected in PV devices and issuing a warning that it was "dangerous."

However, the FDA conveniently failed to mention that it was only detected in 1 single device and in nearly untraceable amounts.

Hence, not dangerous at all.

So, I think it could be something like that.

I'm just speculating at this point. But again, with everything I'm reading on this thread, I'm leaning toward it being something misleading, similar to the diethylene glycol (non) "scare."

 

[sawlight]

I guess I'm an antoganist, I don't tend to play well with people that tell "it's just because!" I want to know WHY? I will dig until I find out, one way or the other!
I know cell phones, laptops and pacemakers have been brought up already, but I was curious about batteries used in defibullaters used in the ER and ambulances, funny, they are Li-Ion as well! http://www.medicalsupplydepot.com/Defibrillators-AEDs/Defibrillator-Batteries/ I assure you, these are placed under a LOT more load than any e-cig is, and have been used for years? Guess they need to stop that practice now?
I guess I shouldn't use my cordless tools anymore as they are all Li-Ion now? We better ban them! Then the monitors used in hospitals, they get unplugged when a patient gets moved room to room, yup, that's Li-Ion's at work!
I'm sorry, but this strikes me as asinine miss-information!

 

[Baditude]

Above is a pic of a Trustfire 14500 protected battery that "vented" in a BB mechanical mod that I own, as shown in the second pic. Note the protruding horn-style power button on the BB's. The power button became compressed in a pants pocket of a pair of shorts hanging in my locker at work. The continuous firing of the battery caused it to hard short in thermal runaway.

When I went to my locker to pull out my mod, it was too hot to touch. I quickly got a wet wash cloth to protect my fingers and removed the mod from the pants pocket and carefully removed the battery. At this point I could see that both ends of the battery had been blown out and the plastic casing had melted. I could also detect a strong burning/chemical smell. The cloth of the pocket had been singed black from the heat. The mod performed as it was designed to; it has no vent holes but it did vent the hot gasses produced via the power switch (which had to be replaced) and the hot spring had collapsed.

In hindsight, if I chose to carry the mod in a pocket, I needed to either remove the battery or to remove the juice delivery device so there could be no continuation of battery current which could lead to a short circuited battery. It should also be pointed out that carrying a spare battery without being in a protective plastic case in a pocketful of change or with some keys in a purse can cause the same type of battery venting. A vape safe mod fuse likely would have prevented the above mishap from occuring.

http://www.thevapesafe.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19&Itemid=163


My guess is that the hot gasses that vented from this battery very well could have been carcinogenic had I chose to inhale them over a period of time.

 

[awsum140]

Both examples of batteries venting mentioned are batteries being either shorted or otherwise overloaded, not during "normal" use. A little off topic, but I'm glad those pants were hanging in your locker and not on your waist, attitude! LOL

 

[Baditude]

I'm g;ad those pants were hanging in your locker and not on your waist, attitude! LOL

No more glad than I, my friend.