You too, huh? As if that weren't enough, I served in the Air Force.
Class at Hospital - "Lithium battery in ecigarettes release carcinogenics." Help me respond to this?
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Yes, Keesler and Wright Patterson, mostly. I say mostly because you know how it is. "We're moving again? Well, okay... off we go!"
And thank you for your service!
This is correct.
In the first, a pocket full of metal bits is not a proper carrying case for a high energy device.
In the second, there was no fuse in the design, and whatever caused the short, created a thermal runaway event.
Most battery systems today have a limiter; typically 5 seconds on a cig-a-like, and 10 seconds on an eGo style. I don't know about mods. It's not quite the same as a fuse, but it works.
1) In none of the tests done on cigalikes has there ever been mention of battery fumes being being present. If there was an issue, someone would have spotted it by now. Strangely enough, most of the tests do and have used cigalikes
CASAA: New study confirms that chemicals in electronic cigarettes pose minimal health risk -- PHILADELPHIA, Aug. 8, 2013 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --
2) Apart from cigalike auto batteries the air path is not past the battery or through the case anyway. You could say that your phone has more of a direct air path to the battery.
3) Of any detectable toxic or carcinogenic substances in vapor, they are till at a level that is only 1% of the real set safe level (read report above). Compare this to tobacco smoke that blows the safe level on carcinogens and other toxic substances such as carbon monoxide out of the water.
4) By telling staff to deny patients the use of e-cigarettes they are doing far more harm than good.
5) Where is this mis-information coming from? If Lithium batteries were that dangerous then surely someone would have noticed. They are in everything now from drill to phones, toys, GPS, and yes e-cigs. It wouldn't happen to be a certain MD in Oncology would it?
6) Sounds like misinformation to me. Lithium batteries don't get hot during normal operation. If they do, they are faulty. How hot is "hot". Someone has taken some feasible sounding facts and strung them into a general attack on e-cigs. Shame! Facts please.
Li-Ion batteries do NOT vent during their normal use. Even if you have big temperature differences.
When you get a bloated (almost all Li-Ion's are inside a bag of their own) or a vented battery however this means also that chemicals inside the battery have been "changed" meaning BURNED, changed their chemical properties. Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen fartgas or whatever.
Not sure of the amount but you get the idea.
That however depends on the battery, 18650 batteries HAVE closed vents and they break open during the destruction of the bat.
Other batteries on e-go, SI X2 etc have an internal batterie which is sealed.
Imagine where RC model users would be by now since they discharge similar bag type (all of them are Li-Ion) Li-Po, Li-Fe etc at 20-30-50-90C (yes 90C). They should all be dead by now.
When you get a bloated (almost all Li-Ion's are inside a bag of their own) or a vented battery however this means also that chemicals inside the battery have been "changed" meaning BURNED, changed their chemical properties. Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen fartgas or whatever.
Not sure of the amount but you get the idea.
That however depends on the battery, 18650 batteries HAVE closed vents and they break open during the destruction of the bat.
Other batteries on e-go, SI X2 etc have an internal batterie which is sealed.
Imagine where RC model users would be by now since they discharge similar bag type (all of them are Li-Ion) Li-Po, Li-Fe etc at 20-30-50-90C (yes 90C). They should all be dead by now.
I dunno "guru" but this is "101" level stuff in the electronics world. A battery, as a rule, should not get hot. You got one warming up, you pull it. And fast. There is Something Very Wrong in your circuit. Batteries run on chemical reactions, chemical reactions that generate heat often become what we commonly call "fire".
Also, the common Li-Ion is so common, the control circuits are cheap, "off the shelf" chips now. The batteries are monitored and controlled by chips that don't cost hardly anything (I know, I've priced them for a project I was thinking of that would need to charge and regulate some lithium batteries). That's why the cheapest disposable and the vast majority of rechargeable PVs all do that "blink" pattern when the battery is low. They're all using one of a handful of chips out there. The regulation of charging/discharging lithium-ions was solved years ago. It's been turned into mass produced, tiny chips that do all the work. Some batteries come with control chips built in. We've been doing these batteries a while. They've got it down. Failures can happen but they're insanely rare.
Just think of the cell phone. Just those. In the US, there are more activated cell phones than people. Why, I dunno. But there are. Well over 300 million lithium ion batteries in use just in cell phones. Just in the US. When was the last time you heard of a cell phone "exploding"?
I think I've found maybe two or three cases that seem legit. Maybe. I think the odds of a Li-Ion going very bad on you (in normal use, not something idiotic like tossing it into a fire or something) are somewhere in the realm of being struck by lightning while simultaneously winning the lottery.
I'd be very interested in what your brother says.. eye rolls and all. And, if he's ever heard anything within the realm of what was intimated to us.
There's this "great divide" between the RNs with Bachelors and those who completed "just" the 2 year RN programs (me). There's a good measure of "Oh, so you don't want to bridge UP to your Bachelor's for Administration?" .. always directed with a lovely smile
What can I say? I prefer patients and families to scheduling and supervising
Oh... that... I remember the introduction of the BSN. Oh dear. That was... well... mother was unimpressed. I'll phrase it that way.
True enough. But that example is an exposed battery somebody shoved in their pocket. Notice the remark about "keys and coins" from the same pocket. That was risking a dead short.
This is also why I never recommend an advanced PV to new folks. The batteries used even in APVs are generally safe if handled properly. The "mid-range" (say, the Twist or the Spinner), the battery is essentially "double sealed". The battery is inside the metal casing and the battery itself is sealed.
Of course lithium is volatile. If it were inert, it wouldn't make good batteries. A system with separate batteries, you should know how to handle the batteries. That is, advanced PVs are for advanced vapers.
Speaking of RC folk, most impressive battery fire I found on the YouTube was Li-Po batteries in an RC plane. I take that back, the laptop at LAX is probably the most impressive. It had fireworks!
Gotta love it.
I'm an MD so I know batteries emit Carcinogens -lol
Well I'm a certified Technician in the Automotive industry and I know your Picasso is a Fake.
I wonder if they understand the word SEALED
Lead Acid I worry about, Lithium Ion not so much. Been using them for over 10 years in RC aircraft.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_ion_safety_concerns
I'm an MD so I know batteries emit Carcinogens -lol
Well I'm a certified Technician in the Automotive industry and I know your Picasso is a Fake.
I wonder if they understand the word SEALED
Lead Acid I worry about, Lithium Ion not so much. Been using them for over 10 years in RC aircraft.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_ion_safety_concerns
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I don't know about you, but if my battery starts venting, I'm gonna stop vaping. Plus runaway thermal discharge at 300 - 400 degrees is too hot for me outside my fire protective gear. This is clearly ANTZ PC BS and a few more initials to boot. I can't tell you how much this pisses me off, because I know of no one more knowledgeable and conscientious about battery safety than experienced ECF vapers. I really, really want to give them a piece of my mind, one they won't soon forget. I posted early, about 100 posts ago, worked, came back, see all the comments, and now I'm ready to kick some ..... Bring 'em on!
My Data Input:
Sorry if this is a repeat, but here is a study (testing) done by the FAA about lion batteries and the 18650 cells so they know the dangers of them being on an airplane due to the fedex Memphis incident. Heck there is even a test where they put them in the oven and they didn't vent until 470-500 F. There's a lot good information in this pdf such as we already know that lion batteries are basically "the" rechargeable of our time, but also the fact that laptop batteries are basically a bunch of 18650 cells which happens to be what is in most of our devices.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...eaYtHo-51ZXaCGNQQ&sig2=7gj-OlglBwcWMGnNltJFXQ
My Rant:
I know a lot of folks have eluded (even though you have the disclaimer in your original post) to cell phones, laptops, remote control cars, the baby monitor in my kids room, etc etc etc vs the carrier agent, but if they are in front of your face you are breathing them in with some kind of carrier just in the air (unless you are walking around with a mask on or an air purifier under your nose). Have you ever used a mac laptop before. They get so hot I cant even touch the keyboards sometimes. Once I accidentally tuched the bottom when it was that hot and I got a very small burn blister on the palm of my hand. So those batteries can get that hot and we are safe, but ecig batteries that barely even get warm warrant this kind of judgment.
Sorry if this is a repeat, but here is a study (testing) done by the FAA about lion batteries and the 18650 cells so they know the dangers of them being on an airplane due to the fedex Memphis incident. Heck there is even a test where they put them in the oven and they didn't vent until 470-500 F. There's a lot good information in this pdf such as we already know that lion batteries are basically "the" rechargeable of our time, but also the fact that laptop batteries are basically a bunch of 18650 cells which happens to be what is in most of our devices.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...eaYtHo-51ZXaCGNQQ&sig2=7gj-OlglBwcWMGnNltJFXQ
My Rant:
I know a lot of folks have eluded (even though you have the disclaimer in your original post) to cell phones, laptops, remote control cars, the baby monitor in my kids room, etc etc etc vs the carrier agent, but if they are in front of your face you are breathing them in with some kind of carrier just in the air (unless you are walking around with a mask on or an air purifier under your nose). Have you ever used a mac laptop before. They get so hot I cant even touch the keyboards sometimes. Once I accidentally tuched the bottom when it was that hot and I got a very small burn blister on the palm of my hand. So those batteries can get that hot and we are safe, but ecig batteries that barely even get warm warrant this kind of judgment.
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Well, computer geek I is, I'm going to insist that ain't the batteries generating the heat. You should really see the temperatures modern ICs run at. You can get a nice, nasty burn if you're not careful when mucking about inside a computer case. I know. I have. The heat that comes off a CPU is astonishing for a small chip. And cooling is always an issue. You see the intro of the new Mac Pro? They rebuilt the thing around a central "core" to vent the heat. The whole computer is essentially one giant heat sink with a fan on top.
To make my machine last longer, I "hack" the fan control and spin the fans up faster (a lot of computer manufacturers rather run slower fans so they can advertise "it's quiet!"). My CPU is still running at 125 degrees F (right now, the temp is in the menu bar). For the inside of a computer, that's relatively "cool".
(Though you want better performance, you do something like liquid cooling. I kid you not. "Overclockers" who run their machines faster than the manufacture intended actually build and install water based cooling systems to keep the chips from burning themselves up. You can also use Peltiers which I have a few of to play around with and are really cool widgets.)
Problem with laptops is you have way, way less room to install fans (or anything else) for cooling the chips. Apple, like most manufacturers, has gone to aluminum (and other metal) cases to dissipate more of the heat. This works well but, also, can lead to things like you touching hot metal.
And there's no good solution for that at this point. We keep demanding more powerful machines but the more powerful they get, the hotter the chips run. Maybe they'll finally get optical computing off the ground?
Anyway, what's kind of funny is that it's not your batteries heating up your laptop. Your laptop is actually heating up your batteries...
yes, I apologize I probably could have been more specific in my rant that the batteries themselves are not the ones producing the heat. The point I was conveying (at least in my head) was the laptops act like an oven and all of that heat is right next to the batteries in turn causing them to be at a higher temperature than our ecig batteries get (except in an unvented mod). Yes, I overclock my gpu's and cpu's and I liquid cool my build.
Ha, maybe I will turn one of my old home servers into a liquid cooled mod. Then there is no way of overheating the battery.
EDIT: Though I guess monkeys coworkers will say I am still giving off carcinogens...
Ha, maybe I will turn one of my old home servers into a liquid cooled mod. Then there is no way of overheating the battery.
EDIT: Though I guess monkeys coworkers will say I am still giving off carcinogens...
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Admittedly, I did not read this entire thread - twelve pages and counting. But, the original post was very interesting and I had a couple of thoughts on some points the poster raised. Forgive me if these have already been mentioned in 11 pages of replies that I didn't go through.
One of the concerns was - lithium batteries release carcinogenic fumes when heated.
While reading this forum, I have been vaping the entire time, and off-and-on most of the day. If any battery should be hot, it would be mine, right now. I checked my battery and rest of the assembly. I could not detect any heat at all. Not even warm.
The question should be - how hot do the batteries need to get before they start emitting hazardous fumes?
Will casual vaping result in sufficient heating of the batteries to generate fumes? Early anecdotal evidence seems to say "no". Having said that, a high-powered mod using a big bank of batteries that is cranking out more vapor than a school bus exhaust pipe, might heat up the batteries to the point where they become hot. But I honestly don't think the average vaporizer gets hot enough to make the batteries start belching out cancer-causing fumes. I use a modest eGo-T 650 battery and it doesn't appear to get hot during use. Perhaps during recharging when it's plugged into the charger? (but even then, your face isn't close to it while it's charging, so you wouldn't be inhaling fumes from it anyway).
Also, it bears mentioning (perhaps again) that the batteries in a device like the eGo-T are essentially a sealed disposable unit. When the batteries start to degrade and decline, the unit is typically replaced. So a unit in good proper working order should be less risky than an older unit with faulty batteries.
The whole idea of inhaling toxic fumes from hot vaporizer batteries just seems like the medical establishment taking the safe position on this - yes, hot lithium batteries can release bad fumes. Heck, any battery can get hot and it's never good when they do - your cellphone, your flashlight, or your car. But I personally think it is doubtful that a vaporizer like mine (small and relatively low-powered) is going to give me cancer any faster than smoking analog cigarettes or cigars.
Stay out of sunlight - it causes cancer.
Best regards and vape on,
MikeG
One of the concerns was - lithium batteries release carcinogenic fumes when heated.
While reading this forum, I have been vaping the entire time, and off-and-on most of the day. If any battery should be hot, it would be mine, right now. I checked my battery and rest of the assembly. I could not detect any heat at all. Not even warm.
The question should be - how hot do the batteries need to get before they start emitting hazardous fumes?
Will casual vaping result in sufficient heating of the batteries to generate fumes? Early anecdotal evidence seems to say "no". Having said that, a high-powered mod using a big bank of batteries that is cranking out more vapor than a school bus exhaust pipe, might heat up the batteries to the point where they become hot. But I honestly don't think the average vaporizer gets hot enough to make the batteries start belching out cancer-causing fumes. I use a modest eGo-T 650 battery and it doesn't appear to get hot during use. Perhaps during recharging when it's plugged into the charger? (but even then, your face isn't close to it while it's charging, so you wouldn't be inhaling fumes from it anyway).
Also, it bears mentioning (perhaps again) that the batteries in a device like the eGo-T are essentially a sealed disposable unit. When the batteries start to degrade and decline, the unit is typically replaced. So a unit in good proper working order should be less risky than an older unit with faulty batteries.
The whole idea of inhaling toxic fumes from hot vaporizer batteries just seems like the medical establishment taking the safe position on this - yes, hot lithium batteries can release bad fumes. Heck, any battery can get hot and it's never good when they do - your cellphone, your flashlight, or your car. But I personally think it is doubtful that a vaporizer like mine (small and relatively low-powered) is going to give me cancer any faster than smoking analog cigarettes or cigars.
Stay out of sunlight - it causes cancer.
Best regards and vape on,
MikeG
Personally I would ask for documented proof to back up their findings and ask where they got their information so you could investigate further for your own accord. Sounds like a bunch of non-sense to me.
According to the FAA report testing 18650 venting occurred at 470 degrees F. I wonder if smaller batteries have a slightly lower threshold. None the less, probably no where near what we could hold in our hands before we knew something was NOT right and to throw it as far away as possible.
My batteries are Li-Mn too. Just another reason to get a ProVari. Joking!!! I couldn't resist.
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