Classified New Rules Feedback.

[AmericanPirate]

First off let me say. I know I will get heat for this but i feel strongly enough about this that I have to post something.

I think that putting a cap on how much you can sell something for is not only something we shouldn't do but to me at least it feels wrong to do so. Let me explain. This is a collectors market. You might not think of it as such but it is. For example there are many pieces that are made in very small runs from companies such as GG, Empire, And Zen. They are made in small runs because of many factors. But regardless of the reason when a good product is made in small runs it will produce demand for the item. That demand will dictate market value for that item. What Is a GGTS SS worth? Well it worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Now this annoys me as well. You can see form what I have sold my own items for that I don't jack up the prices. I sell for around the retail of the item. See http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/closed-sold-classified-threads/340026-us-fs-gg-ody-v2.html or http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-threads/307376-us-fs-red-black-reo-mini.html.But that's my choice to sell at those prices. Could you picture some body of authority telling you that you couldn't sell your Babe Ruth baseball card for more then 10% above the price you paid for it. Now that might be a pretty extreme example but it holds true. This is a collectors market. If we want it to be or not. I have old NES games worth A LOT more then they originally sold for because of how rare they are. This applies to current items as well as items no longer in production. A rare hard to find item is going to be worth more then you pay for it new. Dependent of course on the quality and the rarity of the item. Now do I think A GGTS SS is worth 400+ dollars no but if it sells then someone did. How do we properly reduce the prices that these items are being sold for? We don't buy and we encourage other not to.

Ok that's just what I think' Let the heat began. lol

 

[oldsoldier]

This change to the classifieds was brought on by a few things:

1. The classifieds ads are meant to be a community service, in this spirit they are not intended to be a cottage industry for reselling mods to make a profit.

2. The community has very vocally stated they are upset with the price gouging on the classifieds.

With that said there are provisions for special cases of collectable items and one offs, as well for items that are no longer in production. The 10% cap is just a starting point and could be raised based on community input.

The new policies are like everything else here, living documents. If community feedback shows that changes are warranted and these changes fall within the vision and intent of the classifieds, I'm sure j0ker will take the suggestions under advisement and make changes as needed.

Personally I am of the belief that the market can regulate itself and that pricing is up to the buyer and seller. However the community has reacted so vocally and negatively to price gouging that I was forced to step back and let j0ker work on another solution. I think his solution has merit and that it is viable. If It turns out that it doesn't help and just creates more problems and overburdens the staff we'll revisit/rescind it.

 

[MAlzado]

Plus 1 to the OP.

This change to the classifieds was brought on by a few things:

1. The classifieds ads are meant to be a community service, in this spirit they are not intended to be a cottage industry for reselling mods to make a profit.

2. The community has very vocally stated they are upset with the price gouging on the classifieds.

With that said there are provisions for special cases of collectable items and one offs, as well for items that are no longer in production. The 10% cap is just a starting point and could be raised based on community input.

The new policies are like everything else here, living documents. If community feedback shows that changes are warranted and these changes fall within the vision and intent of the classifieds, I'm sure j0ker will take the suggestions under advisement and make changes as needed.

Personally I am of the belief that the market can regulate itself and that pricing is up to the buyer and seller. However the community has reacted so vocally and negatively to price gouging that I was forced to step back and let j0ker work on another solution. I think his solution has merit and that it is viable. If It turns out that it doesn't help and just creates more problems and overburdens the staff we'll revisit/rescind it.

Worst policy change yet... and that's sayin' somethin'.

You refer to "the community" feedback. That's interesting because as usual, you have not given "the community" any opportunity to vote or have their opinions considered. Chances are quite high all the whining has come from a small segment of us. Did you tale a poll??? No. You made a kneejerk price fixing rule based solely on the noise of a jealous minority. History should tell you guys that complainers are a thousand times more likely to cry than the content are to congratulate you for getting something right.

This has harmed the membership in no uncertain terms. The collectors market on ECF is now officially dead. This will result in the loss of even more of the top members on top of those who've already left due to all the previous heavy-handed, control obsessed rule additions and banishments for the questioning thereof.

If I want to buy something (or sell) and pay a higher price, I don't need ECF "management" to protect me or be in my business. When governments do this, it's called communism.

You feel free to delete this and suspend or ban me.
Your "management" has reduced the value of ECF to the point where I just don't care anymore.

 

[oldsoldier]

I think that you are just being inflammatory and deleting your post is pointless. It is obvious that you just want to fight.

However if you really do want to leave ECF, that can be arranged. We have a very long standing policy about this - just report this post and say you'd like to be banned.

 

[user808a]

I just read the classified rules again and see no mention of this new rule. Where can I find more info on this.

Nevermind, I found it, but not under calssified rules. link

 

[oldsoldier]

I'll talk to j0ker about amending the classified rules so that people don't have to look for it.

 

[MAlzado]

I think that you are just being inflammatory and deleting your post is pointless. It is obvious that you just want to fight.
However if you really do want to leave ECF, that can be arranged. We have a very long standing policy about this - just report this post and say you'd like to be banned.

Ahhhh... the good ol' standby: "Spoiling for a fight". This one's getting a little worn out from overuse.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is 'just looking for a fight'. There is IMO, a deep, fundamental wrong in your attempt to prevent or control an agreement between 2 people that both are happy with. So please consider that you may have made a regulation egregiously oppressive to the freedom of others to choose for themselves.

You admitted above that you only considered the complaints of the unhappy in implementing this price fixing rule. So now you have an opposing viewpoint. But yes, I am frustrated... with this and the long string of regulatory decisions that have amounted to shooting yourselves in the foot. But this one takes the cake. Did you consider that your act will result in the complete absence of all collectors and hard to find items from the classies? ...Or that your members will go to other forums to find them?

I used to love ECF, and was here every day. But bit by bit you've slowly taken that place from me. So I don't come here much anymore. In effect, I suspended ECF some time ago. Most of my friends from here have gone elsewhere anyway.

And regarding long standing policies, I have one too: I Stay out of my friends' business.
That way they don't leave.

 

[MAlzado]

..... and deleting your post is pointless.

If this refers to my classy post, I was priced over the 10% limit and received a PM warning from Devonshire Moon
telling me of the new rule that had been posted a few hours earlier.

So I had to delete it.

 

[vsummer1]

If this refers to my classy post, I was priced over the 10% limit and received a PM warning from Devonshire Moon
telling me of the new rule that had been posted a few hours earlier.

So I had to delete it.

All you have to do is show that it is a one run, or not being produced item. If that is the case, then go ahead and price as you wish. If it is something that is still in production, then stop trying to rip off the maker of the item by buying them and reselling them for a profit.

Sounds like a good rule to me. I am sick of trying to put myself on lists to buy these things only to find them sold out then have someone selling them in the classies for a profit. If I was the maker, I would never sell to anyone again that did such a thing. Just as the JB tanks maker has stated he will do.

So, if your item is unique, offer it up. If you are one of the small minded people who care nothing for your fellow vaper except how much money you can get out of them, then too bad. Your selfish cottage industry just got halted in this forum.

Kudos to ECF for recognizing these people who are only out to make a buck.

ETA: and if it truly is your friend's "business" there is an avenue for that, have them register as a supplier.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

If this refers to my classy post, I was priced over the 10% limit and received a PM warning from Devonshire Moon
telling me of the new rule that had been posted a few hours earlier.

So I had to delete it.

If you are going to call me out in Public because I already know you hate me because I am a very avid supporter of fair pricing then at least have the decency to get my name right, it is DEVONMOONSHIRE, and yes I gave you a friendly heads up about it because it was a nicer thing to do then just reporting it.

I believe this was a great move and there are a LOT more than you seem to think that do support this new policy change.

That is all I have to say on this.


Sincerely;
Nate aka Darth Vapor

 

[oldsoldier]

Ahhhh... the good ol' standby: "Spoiling for a fight". This one's getting a little worn out from overuse.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is 'just looking for a fight'. There is IMO, a deep, fundamental wrong in your attempt to prevent or control an agreement between 2 people that both are happy with. So please consider that you may have made a regulation egregiously oppressive to the freedom of others to choose for themselves.

You admitted above that you only considered the complaints of the unhappy in implementing this price fixing rule. So now you have an opposing viewpoint. But yes, I am frustrated... with this and the long string of regulatory decisions that have amounted to shooting yourselves in the foot. But this one takes the cake. Did you consider that your act will result in the complete absence of all collectors and hard to find items from the classies? ...Or that your members will go to other forums to find them?

I used to love ECF, and was here every day. But bit by bit you've slowly taken that place from me. So I don't come here much anymore. In effect, I suspended ECF some time ago. Most of my friends from here have gone elsewhere anyway.

And regarding long standing policies, I have one too: I Stay out of my friends' business.
That way they don't leave.

Disagreement is handled by posting a reasonable response to the issue. Spoiling for a fight is complaining about heavy handed moderation and saying go ahead and ban me and delete my post. Seriously why the drama?

So if the argument seems worn out you need to look in the mirror and see why. Be part of a solution instead of part of the problem.

 

[MAlzado]

If you are going to call me out in Public because I already know you hate me because I am a very avid supporter of fair pricing then at least have the decency to get my name right, it is DEVONMOONSHIRE

I don't remember calling you out or victimizing you in any other way. Nor do I remember hating you. I'm sorry you felt slighted by me misremembering your name.

Disagreement is handled by posting a reasonable response to the issue. Spoiling for a fight is complaining about heavy handed moderation and saying go ahead and ban me and delete my post. Seriously why the drama?

Please, let's not pretend ECF mods don't have a history of this. ( although I admit, it is better than it used to be. Props for that, BTW.)

Calm reasonable debate of an issue is appropriate when management and issue known and open to debate. This also serves to let ALL the people know that you have enough respect for their opinions to listen to them before you impose more restrictions on them.
Imposing new regulations, without regard to the majority view, is cause for calm but frustrated debate... which is what we have here.

I've said my piece, nothing more to add.
Thanks for your time.

 

[dirquist]

I think the changes are pretty good overall. I was never bothered by the high prices on mods that are limited runs or collectors pieces, however.

What did bother me was the flipping of items. That is when people buy 5 of one item while it is on sale and then turn to the classifieds to sell them at a much higher price to the people that missed out.

This flipping practice is banned in many forums I belong too. It is hard to police and differentiate though. From what I saw this practice is what got the fuhrer of most of the complainants.

 

[oldsoldier]

I don't remember calling you out or victimizing you in any other way. Nor do I remember hating you. I'm sorry you felt slighted by me misremembering your name.


Please, let's not pretend ECF mods don't have a history of this. ( although I admit, it is better than it used to be. Props for that, BTW.)

Calm reasonable debate of an issue is appropriate when management and issue known and open to debate. This also serves to let ALL the people know that you have enough respect for their opinions to listen to them before you impose more restrictions on them.
Imposing new regulations, without regard to the majority view, is cause for calm but frustrated debate... which is what we have here.

I've said my piece, nothing more to add.
Thanks for your time.

I beg to differ. your quote wasn't debate, it was a snarky comment. My offer stands, If you have feedback on how j0ker can make it work better feel free to rejoin the conversation. As for the rest, changes happen, they don't always make everyone happy but in the end change is bound to happen. Things could not continue the way they were.

 

[tiburonfirst]

i know it has been tried before and didn't work all that well because of flaming but if reasonable, strictly-sticking-to-the-facts remarks would be allowed again no caps would be necessary.
people who are not aware of current pricing would then be able to make an informed decision if and how much they want to pay over regular retail for whatever reason.
and the classifieds would regulate themselves .............

 

[AmericanPirate]

Look I am saying this and I DON"T jack up my prices on stuff. Do I wish reselling prices on some items was lower? Yes. Do I think some people are buying larger groups of items in hopes of making profit off them? Yes. But no one is forcing you to buy anything. Nobody is forcing you to pay these prices. If you don't do your homework first and see what these thing retail for before deciding what you are willing to pay for them then shame on you. It is not hard to look these items up. I don't care if its a lavatube if I want to put a $400 price tag on it the market will dictate if it will sell or not. And if the market dictates it will sell for that price I am not over pricing it. Demand dictates cost. Nobody is ripping off the producer of the item because they are first buying the item set at the price the producer decided. If the person producing these items is watching the secondary market it should tell them that they can either raise prices of produce more because the demand is there to increase profits. That part of marketing you watch to see how the market reacts to you product and you respond to meet demand. A lot of the suppliers are not doing this. So demand will stay high and the secondary market will remain high. Buy capping the secondary market it not only will take away from what is sold here but it also takes away a useful tool for the producers of these items.

And please people can we keep this civil. This is a discussion on policy. I don't think anyone has gotten out of hand yet but I can see this subject going there and I am really just voicing a real concern about this.

 

[oldsoldier]

i know it has been tried before and didn't work all that well because of flaming but if reasonable, strictly-sticking-to-the-facts remarks would be allowed again no caps would be necessary.
people who are not aware of current pricing would then be able to make an informed decision if and how much they want to pay over regular retail for whatever reason.
and the classifieds would regulate themselves .............

I can't speak for j0ker completely (i'm sure he'll chime in when he gets home and has a chance to catch up) but I do think he is trying to split the difference and make a procedure that preserves some sort of balance between the two sides of the issue.

Personally I'm in favor of no caps, no pricing discussion/complaints, no GLWS bumps, etc. But the nature of the community has proven that if we go there it will only result in a lot of people getting infractions and banned. Some will do it just to "martyr" themselves others will do it to "prove a point". In the end it is simply just more drama.

 

[AmericanPirate]

Let me break it down another way.

An Empire Mod
Retail price-$129.99 but I cant buy them online because the are never up.
Additional cost to buying a Empire mod. Lets go with the latest place you could get one.

Plane tickets
Hotel
Additional food cost you would not have if eating at home.

These are all things that would add to you cost of a Empire Mod.

So the retail cost is not always the real world cost of an item.

 

[tiburonfirst]

Let me break it down another way.

An Empire Mod
Retail price-$129.99 but I cant buy them online because they are never up.
Additional cost to buying a Empire mod. Lets go with the latest place you could get one.

Plane tickets
Hotel
Additional food cost you would not have if eating at home.

These are all things that would add to you cost of a Empire Mod.

So the retail cost is not always the real world cost of an item.

if they are never up due to limited runs i'm sure empire mods would fall in this category then

''With that said there are provisions for special cases of collectable items and one offs, as well for items that are no longer in production.''

 

[tiburonfirst]

I can't speak for j0ker completely (i'm sure he'll chime in when he gets home and has a chance to catch up) but I do think he is trying to split the difference and make a procedure that preserves some sort of balance between the two sides of the issue.

Personally I'm in favor of no caps, no pricing discussion/complaints, no GLWS bumps, etc. But the nature of the community has proven that if we go there it will only result in a lot of people getting infractions and banned. Some will do it just to "martyr" themselves others will do it to "prove a point". In the end it is simply just more drama.

as long as the glws bumps with their ''great item, great prize, great seller'' content are allowed then so should factual posts as to availability of sales and co-ops. but i do remember the mayhem which ensued in the past ............
still, i'm convinced that might be easier to control than an allowable 10% up charge that is based on what? the seller's purchase, the most recent sale price of that item? the published retail?