Classified New Rules Feedback.

[digunderground]

I agree that taking there loss as our gain is crap. But its like buying a used car. If you pay to much I feel bad but its not my responsibility to make sure you don't. It your responsibility to ask before buying and then it becomes my job to help you out. I can't police all the kiosks in the world all the time telling people that they are getting ripped off and I can't make sure you know better if you don't ask. Ignorance is not a defense and the only way to prevent getting ripped off is to do some research.

I like to think of us a little less "sharky" than a used car salesman. Yes I think it should be a community where we help each other out. It is our job to breed a positive atmosphere and knowledge base. I'm not saying police Kiosks, but I am saying make sure what you are doing here is fair.

I am not confusing the two but i will concede that how I stated it was not complete. Collectability is a side effect of supply and demand. When something is high demand and maintains that high demand after it can not be bought on the retail market it becomes collectable. But rarity of a item ,while it can be a large part of the equation, it in itself dose not dictate collectability.

If collectibility was a side effect, Oil, gold, soybeans, and pork bellys (supply and demand commodities) would become collectible too. Again Collectibility usually maintains that the item is rare in its condition, no longer made, and has a large enough following to support inflated prices. Gold is not collectible, but specific artists one off products are.. My girlfriends Back Street Boys trading cards from 1997 are old but not collectible.. I wont go on because we will end up splitting hairs. I think a good point to take from this is everyone has a differing opinion of what valuable and collectable are, and thats something we can all learn from.

Well this is a place where we get into convince vs. value. Someone is willing to pay more to have it now. vs. Waiting and getting it at a cheaper cost. This is very common in the secondary market everywhere. As an example for a short time in 2002 2003 in the UK you were able to sell your Mini Cooper for more then you bought it for because demand was so high and people were willing to pay more to have it now.

Instant gratification is a large part of it. I'm just not a fan of people preying on this idea. Think of it this way, what if the distributor/retailer started the same idea. We have 200 of this "item" for every one we sell the price will go up $1, people would be in outrage, and some people would pay it. I think there is just a segment of people that really dont care what they pay, they want "IT", but in the end it really ruins it for everyone because now it becomes unattainable. Most people that make these things do their best to make their products available to everyone to the best of their ability. I guess I just try to follow that ideal.

Maybe im old fashioned (for a 30's something guy) in thinking that things should be fair, and everyone should get a shot. etc. I like to believe the good in people and try to pay it forward as often as I can. Hell, I include freebies in all my sales just to put a smile on someones face. but I guess I cant assume everyone has the same objective. to be clear this isnt directed at you, more me finding err in my thought process.

I don't think its that difficult you just gave a great example of how it can be done. As a matter a fact I think your idea is just what we need. It's perfect. And I'm not being condescending what I'm saying is that I really mean it. I think you came up with a simple way to fix the problem.

I have really enjoyed this conversation thank you for that. I love having discussion where 2 people can disagree but do it civil.

Hey thanks for that and I agree. I think that would be an easy to implement, elegant solution that wouldnt clutter the process and allow the public to voice their opinion while not impeding on collector sales and still showing disdain for profiteering. Who knows, maybe we'll see it sometime.

I have really enjoyed this conversation too. I think if we all (myself included) could keep it civil (im guilty of not doing so on a few occasions) we could self regulate some day. I really have to hand it to the mods though, these guys keep a level head no matter what. My hat off to them for doing so. I'm a pretty calm guy and think before I speak, but there is no way I could have the reservation they do.

 

[oldsoldier]

I'm very pleased to see this conversation proceed in a civil manner. Within the framework of ECFs intent for the classifieds (and the site as a whole) your comments and suggestions are being noted.

Earlier someone asked something along the line of "Where is the rule that the classifieds are a not for profit?" Quite simply there isn't a rule. It is our policy and intent. People often complain that ECF has too many rules Well this is exactly why! People either demand to see the rule or go around the intent of existing rules looking for loopholes, that is just human nature.

Quite simply SmokeyJoe has tasked the staff with maintaining his vision of ECF. I can state the mission as this:

ECF will remain to be a family friendly and work safe world class resource for the vaping community. In addition ECF will promote the efforts of the community to defend our rights and privileges from the governmental forces that would ban or restrict vaping. In doing so ECF will not associate with suppliers that present vaping in a negative light either through false / unfounded claims of safety and health benefits or actions that we feel will ultimately lead to regulation of e-cigarettes as drug delivery devices. We will also refuse to associate ourselves with businesses that we feel are detrimental to our efforts to advance the promotion of vaping and e-cigarettes as a viable harm reduction technique.

In our execution of this mission we must also protect our membership and operate the forum in such a manner that we are able to maintain it in an orderly fashion. This means rules and polices that fall in line with SJ's vision of ECF. His vision does not include classifieds being used as a cottage industry nor does it include "screw the noobs, buyer beware". In all actuality his vision is pretty clear - if you step back and realize he is a really nice guy that is passionate about vaping and the community it should hit you like an epiphany.


The ECF of three years ago is not the same ECF as it is now. The sheer size of the forum and its membership require that some unpopular decisions be made from time to time in order to maintain effective operation of the forum. This means that things must progress and that what worked in the past does not necessarily work now. If this means that certain members of the community disagree, I'm sorry - it is what it is. If you cannot abide by what ECF does and how it accomplishes the vision of its founder, then there are alternative venues. We can't be everything for everybody, and to be quite honest for certain people VF or NV might be a better fit.

 

[AmericanPirate]

I like to think of us a little less "sharky" than a used car salesman. Yes I think it should be a community where we help each other out. It is our job to breed a positive atmosphere and knowledge base. I'm not saying police Kiosks, but I am saying make sure what you are doing here is fair.

I was just talking about someone buying from a private owner. I do however think we already some "sharky" sellers on the retail side. I won't name names. lol

If collectibility was a side effect, Oil, gold, soybeans, and pork bellys (supply and demand commodities) would become collectible too. Again Collectibility usually maintains that the item is rare in its condition, no longer made, and has a large enough following to support inflated prices. Gold is not collectible, but specific artists one off products are.. My girlfriends Back Street Boys trading cards from 1997 are old but not collectible.. I wont go on because we will end up splitting hairs. I think a good point to take from this is everyone has a differing opinion of what valuable and collectable are, and thats something we can all learn from.

Yes this is just an area where we will just have to agree to disagree. Collectability is based on many many factors and the truth is we are both oversimplifying it.

Instant gratification is a large part of it. I'm just not a fan of people preying on this idea. Think of it this way, what if the distributor/retailer started the same idea. We have 200 of this "item" for every one we sell the price will go up $1, people would be in outrage, and some people would pay it. I think there is just a segment of people that really dont care what they pay, they want "IT", but in the end it really ruins it for everyone because now it becomes unattainable. Most people that make these things do their best to make their products available to everyone to the best of their ability. I guess I just try to follow that ideal.

I agree with you if i saw someone trying to sell a Ego kit or lavatube to someone for crazy inflated prices and by deceiving them. i would be the first to jump on that and to hell with the rules. In a earlier post when i talked about selling a Ltube for $400. If I dont lie to you by saying you cant find them anywhere or this is a super rare version of it etc. I wouldn't do that and if i saw someone looking to buy it I would tell them that they can get them elsewhere cheaper for retail. But if your here you are in a place of much information already and if you don't look or ask I don't feel a need to babysit people when they can easily look it up here. When it comes to higher end harder to find PV if your spending hundreds of dollars and don't do research well I feel bad for you but not that bad.

Maybe im old fashioned (for a 30's something guy) in thinking that things should be fair, and everyone should get a shot. etc. I like to believe the good in people and try to pay it forward as often as I can. Hell, I include freebies in all my sales just to put a smile on someones face. but I guess I cant assume everyone has the same objective. to be clear this isnt directed at you, more me finding err in my thought process.

Well maybe I'm 30's guy who have just had to much crap happen to him but I don't believe in fair. Is it fair to dictate what some can sell something for. Is it fair for someone to go with out. Nothings fair unless producers made enough for everyone who wanted one to have it and priced it to a point where everyone who wanted it could get it. But is that fair to the people producing these items. Some people can't afford more then a lavatube or ego kit. Fair is just not realistic someone always gets burned. I wish that wasn't true but it is.

Hey thanks for that and I agree. I think that would be an easy to implement, elegant solution that wouldnt clutter the process and allow the public to voice their opinion while not impeding on collector sales and still showing disdain for profiteering. Who knows, maybe we'll see it sometime.

I have really enjoyed this conversation too. I think if we all (myself included) could keep it civil (im guilty of not doing so on a few occasions) we could self regulate some day. I really have to hand it to the mods though, these guys keep a level head no matter what. My hat off to them for doing so. I'm a pretty calm guy and think before I speak, but there is no way I could have the reservation they do.

Agreed

I would also like to add I am not supporting a activity I do. I sell very reasonable. You can look at my past sells. But I felt a objective third party need to say something. This rule doesn't affect me in anyway. With the exception that I might be able to get a GGTS SS or an Empire mod cheaper. So if I was saying something to benefit me I would be on the other side.

 

[AmericanPirate]

I'm very pleased to see this conversation proceed in a civil manner. Within the framework of ECFs intent for the classifieds (and the site as a whole) your comments and suggestions are being noted.

Earlier someone asked something along the line of "Where is the rule that the classifieds are a not for profit?" Quite simply there isn't a rule. It is our policy and intent. People often complain that ECF has too many rules Well this is exactly why! People either demand to see the rule or go around the intent of existing rules looking for loopholes, that is just human nature.

Quite simply SmokeyJoe has tasked the staff with maintaining his vision of ECF. I can state the mission as this:



In our execution of this mission we must also protect our membership and operate the forum in such a manner that we are able to maintain it in an orderly fashion. This means rules and polices that fall in line with SJ's vision of ECF. His vision does not include classifieds being used as a cottage industry nor does it include "screw the noobs, buyer beware". In all actuality his vision is pretty clear - if you step back and realize he is a really nice guy that is passionate about vaping and the community it should hit you like an epiphany.


The ECF of three years ago is not the same ECF as it is now. The sheer size of the forum and its membership require that some unpopular decisions be made from time to time in order to maintain effective operation of the forum. This means that things must progress and that what worked in the past does not necessarily work now. If this means that certain members of the community disagree, I'm sorry - it is what it is. If you cannot abide by what ECF does and how it accomplishes the vision of its founder, then there are alternative venues. We can't be everything for everybody, and to be quite honest for certain people VF or NV might be a better fit.

Ok I understand what you are saying. But what you are doing is saying to everyone who wishes to sell the PV they have had for an extended amount time that this is the max is you will sell it for. It doesn't matter that you think it is worth more or if someone is willing to pay more for it. You are punishing the good people here for the actions of the ones who buy just with the intent of reselling for profit. I know people abuse the system but that something you put up with. If you see someone selling or its reported that someone is selling in this method you take action then. You don't punish the people who are doing legit sells.

 

[oldsoldier]

Just in case people have missed my clear personal opinion on the matter:

As a ECF member (not staff member, just plain ole me): I think that the classifieds should not be regulated on pricing at all. Let the market decide. I also feel that nobody should posting snarky comments about price. All this does is create drama that requires staff intervention. To be fair we also would need to ban the whole GLWS BS. All it is is bumping anyhow and doesn't serve a real purpose in enhancing the "classifieds experience".

As Forum Manager I could always just make a unilateral decision and just say what I said above is the policy. (Actually I did. Ask J0ker. But it just wasn't working.) But in this situation, I have to take into account what is best for the staff and the community. We already know that if that policy were to be implemented (read as " properly and thoroughly enforced") a lot of people would self destruct and that is not the intent.

At this point in time j0ker's approach is the one that best fits the vision and intent of the classifieds. Is it perfect, no. Is it viable, I believe so. Is it open for revision and adjustment? Absolutely (within reason).

 

[digunderground]

I was just talking about someone buying from a private owner. I do however think we already some "sharky" sellers on the retail side. I won't name names. lol

I was speaking of someone buying from a private owner as well. I just think we should all set a great example and keep it fun and accessible. I won't comment on retailers other than I believe the majority are full of fairness and good will.

Well maybe I'm 30's guy who have just had to much crap happen to him but I don't believe in fair.

Yeah, I think I'm like this because life isnt fair, so I guess I try to compensate for that and do whats right, not pass the negative on to someone else.

Is it fair to dictate what some can sell something for.

When you electively participate in a forum you dont run, yeah, it IS fair to dictate that. I dont think its fair that my taxes bailed out banks and not home owners, but I electively participate in the USA as a citizen and because i believe the good far outweighs the bad. I feel the same about this forum. Its a service for all of us, for free.. all we have to do is play by the rules, if we dont like it we can go elsewhere... though I think thats just silly.. this place is awesome.

Agreed

I would also like to add I am not supporting a activity I do. I sell very reasonable. You can look at my past sells. But I felt a objective third party need to say something. This rule doesn't affect me in anyway. With the exception that I might be able to get a GGTS SS or an Empire mod cheaper. So if I was saying something to benefit me I would be on the other side.

I appreciate an objective conversation, it helps me check my objectivity too, make sure im not way off base. Too bad you missed my SS GGTS 2012 + oddy + penny sale with all kinds of extras for $50 below retail, PP & insured shipping included... You'll get your GGTS, just give it time I have seen many of them going for very reasonable prices of recent.

Thanks again for an awesome conversation. Cant wait to see what all comes of this thread and all the people that come to discuss.

Thanks again to the mods for keeping an open mind as always. I commend you all.

 

[440BB]

I appreciate the effort to maintain a fair place for vapers to sell to vapers. I didn't browse the classifieds much as they had changed in my time at ECF into an area dominated by high priced products to the point that a simple posting of a few juices or some Ego batteries was lost in the shuffle. The variety of classified postings has gotten better in my opinion since the rule was put into effect.

I guess I align with ECF's community philosophy. I would rather make it easier for a relatively new vaper to try out and find a deal on their first mod and help them avoid getting overcharged. It's still about keeping off the analogs first and foremost. I suspect that new members were intimidated by the extreme items that were taking over the classys.

Nobody is saying one can't try to corner the market on a hot item and double the price, just that ECF isn't the place for that activity.

 

[tiburonfirst]

I guess I align with ECF's community philosophy.

and that's the way we all should feel. while i strongly agree with ''buyer beware'' and ''if you don't do your home work, tough luck'' in general, it should not happen here.
all across the forum people are trying to help people, no matter if it's advice on the best beginner's kit, on how to oxidize a ss wick, or sending care packages to our military overseas, so why would anybody suspect when entering the classifieds that there it's a whole new ball game?

 

[denali_41]

personally i would like to see the classifieds sorted by price..and not by most recent post,,that would totally do away with bumping to front page with GLWS sale posts

 

[dirquist]

Just in case people have missed my clear personal opinion on the matter:

As a ECF member (not staff member, just plain ole me): I think that the classifieds should not be regulated on pricing at all. Let the market decide. I also feel that nobody should posting snarky comments about price. All this does is create drama that requires staff intervention. To be fair we also would need to ban the whole GLWS BS. All it is is bumping anyhow and doesn't serve a real purpose in enhancing the "classifieds experience".

As Forum Manager I could always just make a unilateral decision and just say what I said above is the policy. (Actually I did. Ask J0ker. But it just wasn't working.) But in this situation, I have to take into account what is best for the staff and the community. We already know that if that policy were to be implemented (read as " properly and thoroughly enforced") a lot of people would self destruct and that is not the intent.

At this point in time j0ker's approach is the one that best fits the vision and intent of the classifieds. Is it perfect, no. Is it viable, I believe so. Is it open for revision and adjustment? Absolutely (within reason).

As far as the bumping thing goes I noticed one of my other fav sites headfi has built in bumping. There is literally a countdown timer till when you can next bump your thread. There is a hyper text at the top of your post that you click on and it bumps for you. I think it is about every two days between allowing bumps. Not sure if that is something for the future to look into applying or not?

 

[Caridwen]

...

there is an item i want to try,it is out of stock ,but plenty listed in the classys.Problem is they are used and the sellers want to recoup 100% of their original cost from buying it new ,,i don't feel i should pay their shipping,state sales tax etc etc.so i will wait till it is in stock

True. Unless something is sold at a huge discount (for me,at least 20% less), I'd rather wait and get it new from the supplier. That's just me.

 

[cags]

Ok I understand what you are saying. But what you are doing is saying to everyone who wishes to sell the PV they have had for an extended amount time that this is the max is you will sell it for. ............

actually, they are saying that is all you can sell it for here. as pointed out earlier, there are other places on the net to sell vaping stuff. but on some of the other forums I visit, if you try to sell for a high price the members will set you straight. they have no "can't talk about price" rules. so other members laugh and/or poo-poo you in other ways.

personally i would like to see the classifieds sorted by price..and not by most recent post,,that would totally do away with bumping to front page with GLWS sale posts

you can change how the thread is sorted. I got so so so tired of the "great price" (no it's not) bumps that I have it sorted to "thread start time" so new threads are at the top. it is at the bottom of the page under "thread display options" but it doesn't sort by price

 

[Scott_Simpson]

I've read this whole thread, and here's something I don't understand ... why don't people who want to buy on the classifieds have to register and agree to a Terms and Conditions that clearly spells out that this is a free market and people can and do list desirable items at far above retail value, so do your research before plunking down your money? If you really want to protect the noobies, alert them to what they are getting into, remind them that they and they alone are responsible for their own decisions, and then let them loose to waste their money if that's what they want to do? I don't really think we do them any favors by shielding them from the reality of the free marketplace. And of course, if you're NOT a noobie and you still insist on letting your lust for a particular item overrule your common sense ... well, you should know better, but it's your decision.

Oh, and one other thought: why not make it a condition of listing an item for sale that you must prominently display the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP), and the website/store where it can be purchased for that price (if available) so the potential buyer can, if they choose, do their homework before making an offer or agreeing to buy for the inflated price?

 

[denali_41]

Oh, and one other thought: why not make it a condition of listing an item for sale that you must prominently display the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP), and the website/store where it can be purchased for that price (if available) so the potential buyer can, if they choose, do their homework before making an offer or agreeing to buy for the inflated price?

the basic rules are still a little outdated

i like that idea,problem is some websites are blocked on this forum,here is an example

http://........./index.php?route=product/product&product_id=646

 

[oldsoldier]

if a website is blocked on this forum then you'll have to find another source for your reference link when making a report.

Hint: If we block a site's URLs it is because we don't think real highly of them for some reason or another.

 

[denali_41]

if a website is blocked on this forum then you'll have to find another source for your reference link when making a report.

i used that as an example of why providing website links to the product had problems

btw.i have dealt with that site many times ,and they are straight forward and do right by the customer if they mess up,

hands on experience there