Classified Suggestions & Questions

[Dochartaigh]

No feedback from any moderator(s) on the above subject?

I'm about to list another 'clone' for sale, with no logo, which seems to not be an exact copy of the original (but to be honest since I don't own the original, and detailed pictures on the internet are are limited, so how could I tell for sure?)...don't know which part of the rules would apply to it (since rules both in the unacceptable AND acceptable regions seem to apply, and thus contradict each other).

Any help is appreciated as I don't want to get another topic closed and risk my ability to buy/sell here.

 

[spada]

I had a ehpro atomic rda for trade on the classifieds. I received a notification and a warning about selling clones . I searched old classified ads and see plenty of clones for sale. One that I searched was for ehpro ea mech. mods and found quite a few that were sold. Why are they allowed to do that and I can't list a ehpro atty? Thanks Dave

 

[sonicdsl]

Clones are allowed, counterfeits are not. Not all EHPro items are counterfeits.

Again, it's defined in the rules:


http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-guidelines-updated-often-without-notice.html

15. Counterfeit products will not be allowed to be sold on ECF, no matter if the item is described as such or not (see definitions below). Items being sold should never be misrepresented, for example, listing a counterfeit product as the authentic product. Members found knowingly misrepresenting a cloned device as authentic WILL lose their Verified Member status and may risk being banned from ECF. Ads found listing a counterfeit product will be closed and member advised of violation.

Unacceptable
Counterfeit - Counterfeits will basically be an exact replica of the original and not so much tied to the shape as it is more the markings. The shape would come into play if there are unique characteristics of the device. This can include grooves, cutouts, coloring, or trademarks in specific locations.

Acceptable
Clone - Can be similar in size, shape, and even design but will not contain the same markings or colors. As long as the device can be distinguished as different from the original, not just by the word clone, it will be considered a clone. Just by declaring a device a clone in it's title or description will not necessarily make it a clone. The clone device should be absent of all characteristics contained in the original, grooves, cutouts, coloring, or trademarks.

**As long as the device can be distinguished as different from the original, not just by the word clone, it will be considered a clone.​

 

[Dochartaigh]

Clones are allowed, counterfeits are not. Not all EHPro items are counterfeits.

Again, it's defined in the rules:


http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-guidelines-updated-often-without-notice.html

15. Counterfeit products will not be allowed to be sold on ECF, no matter if the item is described as such or not (see definitions below). Items being sold should never be misrepresented, for example, listing a counterfeit product as the authentic product. Members found knowingly misrepresenting a cloned device as authentic WILL lose their Verified Member status and may risk being banned from ECF. Ads found listing a counterfeit product will be closed and member advised of violation.

Unacceptable
Counterfeit - Counterfeits will basically be an exact replica of the original and not so much tied to the shape as it is more the markings. The shape would come into play if there are unique characteristics of the device. This can include grooves, cutouts, coloring, or trademarks in specific locations.

Acceptable
Clone - Can be similar in size, shape, and even design but will not contain the same markings or colors. As long as the device can be distinguished as different from the original, not just by the word clone, it will be considered a clone. Just by declaring a device a clone in it's title or description will not necessarily make it a clone. The clone device should be absent of all characteristics contained in the original, grooves, cutouts, coloring, or trademarks.

**As long as the device can be distinguished as different from the original, not just by the word clone, it will be considered a clone.​

sonicdsl, I thank you for your reply but you didn't answer any of our questions - you just reposted the rules. The rules which contradict each other at every term. The rules which it seems like other people are confused about as well.

To put it a little more blunt, here's (again) some basic contradictions in the "unacceptable" and "acceptable" rules:


1.) Under "unacceptable" you state that "counterfeits will basically be an exact replica of the original", but then in the same sentence you say it's "not so much tied to the shape as it is more the markings". How would something be an exact replica yet not have the same shape? That's impossible thus the same sentence in the rules contradicts itself.

2.) The above also alludes that if a "clone" item has the same logo (i.e. "markings") as the original, but isn't the same shape, it would still be unacceptable. How would it be a clone of an item if it's a different shape? - it would be it's own design then and not a clone of anything.

3.) You then contradict yourself yet again under "acceptable" by saying that the clone "can be similar in size, shape, and even design". Didn't you just say under "unacceptable" that "grooves, cutouts, coloring" in specific locations (which form an items shape and design) make an item "unacceptable"? So which is it? acceptable or unacceptable?


I'm really not trying to be harsh here, but the rules need some help. If you could please kindly bring this to the attention of the other staff (hopefully for some clarification), I'm positive that myself and many, many other members would appreciate it - and it would truly make the forums a better place (which I think all of us try to do on a daily basis by helping each other out on the forum). Thank you.

 

[bloodline129]

I have a question, I bought something from a seller who listed the atomizer as an authentic. He had a screen shot of the purchase order and I went with it. But I bought another one from another member and today I found out 1 of them is a clone. Can anyone point me in the right direction do resolve this or is there anything I can do about it. It's regarding an atomic atty btw


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sonicdsl]

You can use this form to file complaints: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/forms.php?do=form&fid=21

This form can also be found on every classified ad, for future reference.

 

[bloodline129]

Thank you kindly I'll try to resolve it privately first. Enjoy your evening


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[bloodline129]

One more question I filed a complaint and I was wondering if I can go edit/add photos to it now? Or wait till I get contacted. (Didn't have photos at time of filing) I can't seem to find under what section my complaint went so I can edit it... Thanks in advance


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[Idaholandho]

You can use this form to file complaints: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/forms.php?do=form&fid=21

This form can also be found on every classified ad, for future reference.

Why do they go unanswered? At least a, "we got your complaint form, but are ignoring it?", or a "Thanks" would be better than wondering why a legitimate complaint goes nowhere.

Props to Dusty(Great guy) who actually responded to me yesterday on a PM and handled a situation that was out of control. Blew me way, on top of the fact that he cared.

Much like inquiries here, no response. Inquiry #336 and #337, nothing, nadda, crickets....

You often say how busy you are and there are members trying to help as you asked earlier but, communication is a two way street. Some of us who actually do enjoy the forum and benefit quite a few ECF members in many ways also try to help keep things in line through forms, pm's and threads(like this) to. I know you must have seen my pm's and I feel they are kicked aside as very unimportant.

There are many issues and members taking advantage the classifieds in our Forum, in fact it is some days out of control.

Thanks
I'm honestly just posting true questions and concerns, there is no intent of sarcasm intended.

 

[Dochartaigh]

Much like inquiries here, no response. Inquiry #336 and #337, nothing, nadda, crickets....

No response to my posts #340 and 344 either...

No response from the two PM's I sent the moderator who gave me a warning...

No response from the message I sent through the official contact form on this website...

 

[Idaholandho]

No response to my posts #340 and 344 either...

No response from the two PM's I sent the moderator who gave me a warning...

No response from the message I sent through the official contact form on this website...

yep, .

 

[firephly]

i purchased something with paypal from a person here in the classifieds on may 22nd and didn't receive the promised tracking, no answer to my message either, how long do i wait to see if i've been ripped off? thanks.

 

[Idaholandho]

i purchased something with paypal from a person here in the classifieds on may 22nd and didn't receive the promised tracking, no answer to my message either, how long do i wait to see if i've been ripped off? thanks.

Right away imo. Not sure I would ask a mod here. They might as well delete this thread.
Maybe review the classified rules and and regs to scan for an answer. If nothing, pm Joker or Classwife.
Gl, I hope you get your package.

 

[Yohkos]

Someone please send me the link to the form to advertise my item in classifies. I have looked everywhere. I dont know why I am not seeing it. Also is there ablist of bad buyers and sellers. This is my first time and I a little afraid someone will rip me off. Thanks for the help in advance.

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk

 

[Dochartaigh]

No response to my posts #340 and 344 either...

No response from the two PM's I sent the moderator who gave me a warning...

No response from the message I sent through the official contact form on this website...

Nearly a month later and still no response from any MODERATOR....does nobody frequent this stickied topic?

 

[spartanstew]

Someone please send me the link to the form to advertise my item in classifies. I have looked everywhere. I dont know why I am not seeing it. Also is there ablist of bad buyers and sellers. This is my first time and I a little afraid someone will rip me off. Thanks for the help in advance.

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk

Just click on "Post New Thread" in the Classifieds section

 

[Idaholandho]

Nearly a month later and still no response from any MODERATOR....does nobody frequent this stickied topic?

Ridiculous isn't it.
We should just start using this thread for like a hang out thread. I suspect it would be a good place for a free for all. No censorship, post random music videos, learn spanish, talk about sports, Use banned words like they are supposed to be used, marriage counseling, Fishing/Hunting reports, teach quantum physics, share recipes, order Pizza, start a shoe review thread, talk about toiletries, Have morning coffee talk, meet your neighbor day, talk about your day, protest NAFTA and lead based candy from china, share gardening tips, have an eating healthy today spot, wicks and coils for idiots, an out of control discussion of clones often and never get infractions for the truth, religion segment, nap time, how to love a cat, AA meetings for the 12 steppers, group hug Tuesdays, random polls on lunch meat ingredients, Spam talk, Orange juice and why the Orange farmers need more money due to freezing temps in florida, Why members are seeking new Forums after only being here 3 days, Coconut oil and using it to control spiders, tennis elbow, Meat Head Mondays when the buff come out to type neat stuff on da compewter thingamajig, The photosynthesis required by a tomato plant, air travel physics and what affects such, raising kids, how much to feed your dog Roy based on his activity, the reversal of the toilet flush on the other half of the hemisphere, Political stance, best female hand and nail model 2014, How to rebuild a 350 turbo transmission, Setting the back lash on a Dana 60 rear end, traffic, menu planning for circus clowns, racism in the classrooms, Why we aren't spending more on our kids education, Why no child left behind is a government scam, is the Illuminati still growing, best hip hop artist in country music.....Too much?

 

[j0ker]

I had a classifieds topic closed by a moderator several weeks ago. It was for "clone" items. I PM'd the moderator, twice, about it and haven't heard back (this was from 4/18).

In those PM's I wrote a nice detailed letter explaining how I clearly stated which items were authentic, and how anything I listed as being bought from FastTech I did an internet search on to make sure I wasn't (by accident) listing a prohibited clone item.

...so what should I do? Can you please give me some clarification on the rules (so I don't make this mistake again)? The rules say:

____________________________________________________________

Counterfeit products will not be allowed to be sold on ECF, no matter if the item is described as such or not (see definitions below). Items being sold should never be misrepresented, for example listing a counterfeit product as the authentic product. Members found knowingly misrepresenting a cloned device as authentic WILL lose their Verified Member status and may risk being banned from ECF. Ads found listing a counterfeit product will be closed and member advised of violation.

Unacceptable
Counterfeit - Counterfeits will basically be an exact replica of the original and not so much tied to the shape as it is more the markings. The shape would come into play if there are unique characteristics of the device. This can include grooves, cutouts, coloring, or trademarks in specific locations.

Acceptable
Clone - Can be similar in size, shape, and even design but will not contain the same markings or colors. As long as the device can be distinguished as different from the original, not just by the word clone, it will be considered a clone. Just by declaring a device a clone in it's title or description will not necessarily make it a clone. The clone device should be absent of all characteristics contained in the original, grooves, cutouts, coloring, or trademarks.

**As long as the device can be distinguished as different from the original, not just by the word clone, it will be considered a clone.

____________________________________________________________


So here's what confuses me:

Just looking through the classifieds there's tons of clones listed all over the place. Those items most definitely have the same "grooves, cutouts, coloring" as the original item, which is against the rules, yet those items seem to be allowed in the classifieds. I know the mods can't catch all the violators (if they're even in violation), but with them being as prolific as they are I can't help but believe this practice is OK. - that's why I would like some clarification of the rules.

When we delve further into the rules, all of those clones have the same shape as the original, which is most definitely a "unique characteristic" of the device…which is also listed as being against the rules...

Even under the "acceptable" part of the rule for clones, it says the clone "should be absent of all characteristics contained in the original, grooves, cutouts, coloring". But how would a clone item not have the same cutouts/grooves when how they're made (the manufacturing processes itself) has to be done that way to make the item work in the same way as the original? And furthermore, how would an item not be made out of the same color material, when that material is the most popular one out there for things like this which hold e-liquid or a battery (i.e. stainless steel/silver-color)?

Hopefully I'm making sense in the above (I've re-written it like 5 times now!), and also hope I'm not coming across as being confrontational (which isn't my intention at all), but I do hope I'm giving you a glance into my train of thought, and how these rules don't really clarify what is and isn't allowed very well.

...this is also personally making me scared of listing anything else in the classifieds, especially when I plan on being a vaper for years and years. If I get another warning that could make me lose my ability to use the classifieds section of this forum, and it would be a sin if on such a friendly site like this I'm scared to use the forum to its full potential.

sonicdsl, I thank you for your reply but you didn't answer any of our questions - you just reposted the rules. The rules which contradict each other at every term. The rules which it seems like other people are confused about as well.

To put it a little more blunt, here's (again) some basic contradictions in the "unacceptable" and "acceptable" rules:


1.) Under "unacceptable" you state that "counterfeits will basically be an exact replica of the original", but then in the same sentence you say it's "not so much tied to the shape as it is more the markings". How would something be an exact replica yet not have the same shape? That's impossible thus the same sentence in the rules contradicts itself.

2.) The above also alludes that if a "clone" item has the same logo (i.e. "markings") as the original, but isn't the same shape, it would still be unacceptable. How would it be a clone of an item if it's a different shape? - it would be it's own design then and not a clone of anything.

3.) You then contradict yourself yet again under "acceptable" by saying that the clone "can be similar in size, shape, and even design". Didn't you just say under "unacceptable" that "grooves, cutouts, coloring" in specific locations (which form an items shape and design) make an item "unacceptable"? So which is it? acceptable or unacceptable?


I'm really not trying to be harsh here, but the rules need some help. If you could please kindly bring this to the attention of the other staff (hopefully for some clarification), I'm positive that myself and many, many other members would appreciate it - and it would truly make the forums a better place (which I think all of us try to do on a daily basis by helping each other out on the forum). Thank you.

The problem is, there is just no easy way to describe the rule in a way that every single person on the planet Earth can understand it. The issue has been discussed and rediscussed several times and the way we have it posted is the best way we've found to explain it without created a tech manual out of the rule.

Take a look:

Counterfeit products will not be allowed to be sold on ECF, no matter if the item is described as such or not (see definitions below). Items being sold should never be misrepresented, for example listing a counterfeit product as the authentic product. Members found knowingly misrepresenting a cloned device as authentic WILL lose their Verified Member status and may risk being banned from ECF. Ads found listing a counterfeit product will be closed and member advised of violation.

Unacceptable
Counterfeit - Counterfeits will basically be an exact replica of the original and not so much tied to the shape as it is more the markings. The shape would come into play if there are unique characteristics of the device. This can include grooves, cutouts, coloring, or trademarks in specific locations.

Acceptable
Clone - Can be similar in size, shape, and even design but will not contain the same markings or colors. As long as the device can be distinguished as different from the original, not just by the word clone, it will be considered a clone. Just by declaring a device a clone in it's title or description will not necessarily make it a clone. The clone device should be absent of all characteristics contained in the original, grooves, cutouts, coloring, or trademarks.

Ask yourself:
Is it an exact replica?
Is the shape the same and unique? (In other words if it's just a plain cylinder or square shape it is not unique)
Does the item have the same markings or unique grooves?

If you can answer "No" to all these questions, the device is a clone. If you answer "Yes" to any one of those questions, it's counterfeit.

The thing to remember is, the markings is big when determining whether an item is counterfeit or not. If the manufacturer is reusing a trademark or proprietary markings of the original manufacturer, the shape will not really matter much, it's obviously an attempt to use the success of the original manufacturer to profit on their counterfeit. This will obviously go for the exact replica as well. As we all know some devices have a distinct shape, when this is the case, the device is counterfeit. If you have an item with a similar shape that is common, like a cylinder, but has no markings or grooves similar to another device, this would be acceptable.

****Keep in mind, just because the seller states "clone" in the title, does not make it a clone!****

​

Here is the evolution of this rule:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...aps/366198-classifieds-blog.html#post10528527

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...aps/366198-classifieds-blog.html#post11299950

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...aps/366198-classifieds-blog.html#post12623478

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...aps/366198-classifieds-blog.html#post12750396

I'm also thinking it has been discussed a few time throughout this thread as well.

We aren't being hardasses about this rule. You should not take offense to your thread being closed, its nothing personal. We understand it isn't so cut and dry, so we treat all counterfeits the same way. We will contact you to discuss the matter and try to see your side. If we think you genuinely made an honest mistake, we just explain our stance and move on. Sure if it becomes a habit with an individual, they may receive a Rule Reminder (contrary to popular belief, this is not really a big deal either but I won't get into that). Our message to you or replies will always be polite as long as we receive the same in return. This doesn't mean we will be all happy and friendly, sometimes we are short and to the point, mostly because we usually have a lot going on but we do take the time to respond. Now if you happen to receive a PM that says "Hey stupid, what the heck you think you're doing!", I need to know about it . If it's from me, contact the forum manager because my account has been hacked.

Seriously though, if you get your thread deleted because it was a counterfeit, while you have our attention make sure we take the time to explain it sufficiently so you understand. I would like to ask that we not be bombarded with PM's asking "Hey is this clone or counterfeit?" If you have ask yourself all the questions above and still do not know the answer, please post the question here in this thread along with pictures of your device and the device that it may be trying to copy and we'll get to it as soon as we can.

 

[j0ker]

Ridiculous isn't it.
We should just start using this thread for like a hang out thread. I suspect it would be a good place for a free for all. No censorship, post random music videos, learn spanish, talk about sports, Use banned words like they are supposed to be used, marriage counseling, Fishing/Hunting reports, teach quantum physics, share recipes, order Pizza, start a shoe review thread, talk about toiletries, Have morning coffee talk, meet your neighbor day, talk about your day, protest NAFTA and lead based candy from china, share gardening tips, have an eating healthy today spot, wicks and coils for idiots, an out of control discussion of clones often and never get infractions for the truth, religion segment, nap time, how to love a cat, AA meetings for the 12 steppers, group hug Tuesdays, random polls on lunch meat ingredients, Spam talk, Orange juice and why the Orange farmers need more money due to freezing temps in florida, Why members are seeking new Forums after only being here 3 days, Coconut oil and using it to control spiders, tennis elbow, Meat Head Mondays when the buff come out to type neat stuff on da compewter thingamajig, The photosynthesis required by a tomato plant, air travel physics and what affects such, raising kids, how much to feed your dog Roy based on his activity, the reversal of the toilet flush on the other half of the hemisphere, Political stance, best female hand and nail model 2014, How to rebuild a 350 turbo transmission, Setting the back lash on a Dana 60 rear end, traffic, menu planning for circus clowns, racism in the classrooms, Why we aren't spending more on our kids education, Why no child left behind is a government scam, is the Illuminati still growing, best hip hop artist in country music.....Too much?

As to the delays......

due to the lack of time due to work, the smashing of my laptop screen (which I used for most all ECF work......and don't ask! ), my vacation last week, I'm behind on everything! I'm starting to catch up, so please be patient. Also, keep in mind that we are mere volunteers here and sometimes spend a minimum of 4 hours a day and as much as 12 hours at time some days. At some point we have to step back and take some time for ourselves and families. So you might not always get a response in a rapid manner. To this I would say, post your question here, if you don't get a response in a reasonable amount of time, send a link to your post via PM to myself, classwife or sonicdsl. Notifications don't always come to us as they should and a little reminder is acceptable.

 

[j0ker]

i purchased something with paypal from a person here in the classifieds on may 22nd and didn't receive the promised tracking, no answer to my message either, how long do i wait to see if i've been ripped off? thanks.

This should provide you the information you need: https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?country.x=US&locale.x=en_US#13


Quote from that page: (out of context, please read section in it's entirety)

Open a Dispute within 45 Days of the date you sent the payment, then follow the online dispute resolution process described below under Dispute Resolution. For Pay After Delivery transactions you must open your Dispute within 45 Days of the date of your transaction.

From what I read, as long as you file a dispute within 45 days of when the funds were sent, you should be ok. Let me also state this, do not ever at any point mention anything about e-cigs or e-cig related items! They will not honor the dispute because they consider these items to be illegal. How long you wait or allow the person to respond is really a personal preferences. If it is a large sum of money, I would probably be quick to dispute if I felt the person had ample time to respond and the opposite for lower amounts of money. So what ever makes you more comfortable is what is best. I do ask when you file a dispute on a Verified Member on the forum, please file a complaint against that member to prevent them from scamming anyone else.