Clones VS The Real Deal...

[UntamedRose]

I look at it like this....I'm an artist thats my profession(if one can call what i do professional )

If another person looks at my work and inspired by it.....they like the idea I came up with, they like that technique I used etc. I am cool with them going off and trying it out on their own. Hell I even have other artist ask me how to and for the most part, I'm happy to help them out. ok ya I may loose me a few sales but...i'm doing alright. My thought is while they learn that...i'm moving on and up.(hopefully)
Hell we all have to learn and grow and mimicking is a great way to do that, opens that idea up to more folks too. Not such a bad thing.

Now if they go off and make exact replicas of my work and then have the bloody gall to put my logo, my name, forge my signature with a star *Clone on the sales page.


OHHHH I'd be kickin some butts...or ok more realistically getting a lawyer to legally kick butts as its Illegal.


And who of you would blame me??

 

[Vedak]

Good way to put it untamedrose.

 

[sentinefour]

For the "high end" mods, it's because of supply:demand. The companies can't keep up with the recent explosion of E-Cigs, they simply raise prices to keep up with orders.

 

[BigCloudz]

For the "high end" mods, it's because of supply:demand. The companies can't keep up with the recent explosion of E-Cigs, they simply raise prices to keep up with orders.

Exactly, so whats all the gripe about? These guys can't make enough of these high priced devices to keep up, yet everyone is afraid that the clone world is going to kill business...Far from it...

 

[440BB]

Hell we all have to learn and grow and mimicking is a great way to do that, opens that idea up to more folks too. Not such a bad thing.

Now if they go off and make exact replicas of my work and then have the bloody gall to put my logo, my name, forge my signature with a star *Clone on the sales page.

OHHHH I'd be kickin some butts...or ok more realistically getting a lawyer to legally kick butts as its Illegal.

And who of you would blame me??

That's where the line should be drawn - a knockoff of an idea that is similar is fine with me, but when the identifying marks are copied, it's a ripoff.

I'll happily use knockoffs, as most mods are just another interpretation of the same basic function.

I won't use a ripoff device.

 

[UntamedRose]

That's where the line should be drawn - a knockoff of an idea that is similar is fine with me, but when the identifying marks are copied, it's a ripoff.

I'll happily use knockoffs, as most mods are just another interpretation of the same basic function.

I won't use a ripoff device.

Thats where ECF is drawing the line too, new rule was written up a few weeks ago... Clones are one thing... Counterfeits are another and can not be sold here on ECF including the classifieds. Suppliers wont be advertising them...and should a member buy and want to sell it...it wont be here.

I dont get why they dont just put something Else on them. Why ...like with the Chi you clone...they could have made the same thing...and made it "pretty' They even could have put an Asia style lion head on it.........but why do they need to copy the Exact lion, the Exact marking. All that was not needed.

 

[ScandaLeX]

Thats where ECF is drawing the line too, new rule was written up a few weeks ago... Clones are one thing... Counterfeits are another and can not be sold here on ECF including the classifieds. Suppliers wont be advertising them...and should a member buy and want to sell it...it wont be here.

I dont get why they dont just put something Else on them. Why ...like with the Chi you clone...they could have made the same thing...and made it "pretty' They even could have put an Asia style lion head on it.........but why do they need to copy the Exact lion, the Exact marking. All that was not needed.

I get exactly what you're saying--yet clones are just that; copies. Identical to the original.
As long as they're being labeled as clones I have no issue with that.
If they were being passed off as the real thing (w/O clone labeling), then (IMO) that's counterfeiting.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Speaking on the topic of morals and values, look at it this way. I come from multiple industries where patents, trademarks and copyrights are tested year-round. Technology, being as fast-paced as it is, just so happens to be the target of counterfeits & clones more so than most, next to handbags, purses etc.

Any company that has a solid idea and tests the market with said idea with success needs to protect their investment, period. The only way to formally protect said investment is to patent the design, trademark the name and have a lawyer on retainer or a legal team on-hand to enforce it once granted. If you don't care or can't bother to do all three, and your idea is cloned, you really have no one to blame other than yourself.

Yes, that may come off as harsh, and some may disagree with me on that, but it's the nature of doing business. Yes, it costs and yes, those costs add up, especially when a company (let's use Kanger as an example) is coming out with new ideas every 3-6 months with more on the way as I write this reply. The good news is, if they get patents and trademarks on the names, and even one company tries to clone or sell a similar product, one lawsuit is going to cover nearly all of their expenses. They will recover not only their investment, but additional settlement based on the number of sold clones.

If you walk into a courtroom with patent and trademark papers and lose, there's something wrong with your case. It's really that simple. No judge is going to sit there are argue with papers in-hand and documents showing the similarities. You probably wont get the settlement you ask for (very few companies do, not even Apple gets their way all the time), but you will potentially shut down that vendor and cease further sales. Making an example out of Company A tends to make potential start-ups a bit weary of trying to do the same because they don't want to go broke.


At the end of the day, patents and trademarks are a cost of doing business and should be factored in to any companies business plan from the start. NDA's should be signed by R&D teams to prevent them from leaking designs and prototypes, and employees should be doing the same.

 

[UntamedRose]

Not an ECF opinion......... back to my own.

If you think the Chinese clones.....are anywhere Near the quality of the reals. Your either kidding yourself OR dont know any better.
Now I will agree many clones may be suitable to ones need, that they may do the job but they are not "perfect clones" The feel of them isnt the same, the hit isnt the same, the material isnt the same, the quality of the building...just isnt the same.
It may work and you might be happy...thats fine..but it's still not the "same"
Like claiming wearing a 3 carat walmart ""diamond"" is the same as a real one. Sure ya might fool two people, and some are happy with the fake bling there is room for all I suppose.
Long term, I know where I'm putting my money...much rather get that real 1/2 diamond.

Though...I will give that the price of the "real" mods have gone up exponentially in the past two years and I am not sure they are really worth the price being demanded anymore. I remember thinking(back when I first started) that over 120 was a "big deal" lot of mods where in the 80.00 range but as long as folks are willing to pay it well...that is what they will charge. (though will give modders...there has been some improvements made)

Far as I'm concerned the general Ecig community needs to discourage BOTH biz models. The mod makers need to come down a bit and back to reality .........and the "counterfeit" makers need a good bloody ... kicking and to stop it.

But no...like the nation...we are going to split off in two and encourage the bad habits of both the wrongs. YAAAAAaaaaa.

 

[440BB]

Maybe the use of the word clone within our industry, instead of counterfeit, helped this along.

Merriam Webster dictionary offers up one definition of a clone: "A person or thing that appears to be an exact copy of another person or thing."

Until recently, most knockoffs were similar devices, not exact copies. The word clone really wasn't even appropriate for them.

A real clone is a counterfeit. We all know that a counterfeit is a bad thing, but the word clone is used in many contexts. I think that the word clone has less negative connotation than counterfeit, making the issue of right vs wrong easier to ignore.

 

[Scarey]

Not an ECF opinion......... back to my own.

If you think the Chinese clones.....are anywhere Near the quality of the reals. Your either kidding yourself OR dont know any better.
Now I will agree many clones may be suitable to ones need, that they may do the job but they are not "perfect clones" The feel of them isnt the same, the hit isnt the same, the material isnt the same, the quality of the building...just isnt the same.
It may work and you might be happy...thats fine..but it's still not the "same"
Like claiming wearing a 3 carat walmart ""diamond"" is the same as a real one. Sure ya might fool two people, and some are happy with the fake bling there is room for all I suppose.
Long term, I know where I'm putting my money...much rather get that real 1/2 diamond.

Though...I will give that the price of the "real" mods have gone up exponentially in the past two years and I am not sure they are really worth the price being demanded anymore. I remember thinking(back when I first started) that over 120 was a "big deal" lot of mods where in the 80.00 range but as long as folks are willing to pay it well...that is what they will charge. (though will give modders...there has been some improvements made)

Far as I'm concerned the general Ecig community needs to discourage BOTH biz models. The mod makers need to come down a bit and back to reality .........and the "counterfeit" makers need a good bloody ... kicking and to stop it.

But no...like the nation...we are going to split off in two and encourage the bad habits of both the wrongs. YAAAAAaaaaa.

Apt comparison. The only real value diamond has is in its industrial application. The monetary value associated with diamonds is a false value created by a cartel who tightly controls the market saturation, so as to maximize their profits. If you buy a fake diamond, it's still going to be shiny, and pretty. It serves the same function, at a fraction of the cost, as false diamonds are not artificially inflated in value. Sure, some person who buys into the cartel's line of BS may get a bit "harumph-y," but you buy a fake diamond for your own amusement, not the amusement of the high-end consumer connoisseur.

 

[ScandaLeX]

Then I guess I fall into the don't know any better category. I've only been vaping for 2 months and have NO idea of what the industry was like before then.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2

 

[UntamedRose]

Apt comparison. The only real value diamond has is in its industrial application. The monetary value associated with diamonds is a false value created by a cartel who tightly controls the market saturation, so as to maximize their profits. If you buy a fake diamond, it's still going to be shiny, and pretty. It serves the same function, at a fraction of the cost, as false diamonds are not artificially inflated in value. Sure, some person who buys into the cartel's line of BS may get a bit "harumph-y," but you buy a fake diamond for your own amusement, not the amusement of the high-end consumer connoisseur.

Walmart being key word in there.....you can get a 3 carat ""diamond"" (double air quotes with the hand flings) for like 10.00. this not the same as a certificated lab grown cubic zirconia or Ziamond etc.

AND my general original point still stand

 

[UntamedRose]

Then I guess I fall into the don't know any better category. I've only been vaping for 2 months and have NO idea of what the industry was like before then.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2

look I didnt post that to make folks feel bad..... If its working for you thats great...wonderful! I might be a bit old school didnt have half..third ok just about any.. the stuffs out now when I started.(when I was around two month in it was a big deal when the "XL" 510 ecigs came out a whole 280mah!!! I loved Red but had to have all the colors man and recharged All of them All day )

I just highly suggest not being so quick to trash the "original" mod makers is my point.

 

[Scarey]

Walmart being key word in there.....you can get a 3 carat ""diamond"" (double air quotes with the hand flings) for like 10.00. this not the same as a certificated lab grown cubic zirconia or Ziamond etc.

AND my general original point still stand

That's one of the nice things about this place. People try all of the chintz mods, and report their experiences, so someone else can determine which are actually good mods on their own, and which need tweaking, or should be avoided outright.

And before someone chimes in about how not every vaper is on here, I found this site within the first day I started doing serious research. Everything I googled had threads from EFC on the top results. The moment I started to suspect I could get better deals online than I could at the local B&M's, I started searching for the answers to what would suit me and my budget (diamonds aren't the only cheap thing you get at walmart, just look at my paychecks ). EFC is there at every turn, as well as all of the collected advice on pretty much every product. So, thanks to all of you. heh

 

[st0nedpenguin]

If you think the Chinese clones.....are anywhere Near the quality of the reals. Your either kidding yourself OR dont know any better.
Now I will agree many clones may be suitable to ones need, that they may do the job but they are not "perfect clones" The feel of them isnt the same, the hit isnt the same, the material isnt the same, the quality of the building...just isnt the same.
It may work and you might be happy...thats fine..but it's still not the "same"

Many of the newer ones are though.

There's no real magic that goes into the production of the original devices, if China uses the same or similar enough materials and makes a 1:1 copy then it's going to perform pretty much the same.

Hell, the EHPro EA clone performs BETTER than the original.

 

[ScandaLeX]

look I didnt post that to make folks feel bad..... If its working for you thats great...wonderful! I might be a bit old school didnt have half..third ok just about any.. the stuffs out now when I started.(when I was around two month in it was a big deal when the "XL" 510 ecigs came out a whole 280mah!!! I loved Red but had to have all the colors man and recharged All of them All day )

I just highly suggest not being so quick to trash the "original" mod makers is my point.

That's just it-- I wasn't trashing the original mod makers and I stand by my opinion (which we all are allowed to have).

Fact is, clones have been around for pretty much everything for longer than most of us have been alive and if there is going to be this much outrage then I feel the original mod makers, if they care so much about their product, need to have their stuff patented.

If they can't be too bothered to protect their own works of art, then who am I to shake my first in the air for their protection; especially when a large majority of these mod makers are posting their stuff on the internet for anyone to clone; not just FastTech!

 

[BigCloudz]

Thats where ECF is drawing the line too, new rule was written up a few weeks ago... Clones are one thing... Counterfeits are another and can not be sold here on ECF including the classifieds. Suppliers wont be advertising them...and should a member buy and want to sell it...it wont be here.

I dont get why they dont just put something Else on them. Why ...like with the Chi you clone...they could have made the same thing...and made it "pretty' They even could have put an Asia style lion head on it.........but why do they need to copy the Exact lion, the Exact marking. All that was not needed.

Read back a few to my previous post. If they didn't do this and started their own symbols and what-not, then these high priced mods may actually be in trouble....Seriously. On the surface it may seem uncool, but when you actually think about it, I think it's actually saving these high priced devices' .... and giving them a little leverage by saying "wahh wahh, they are stealing my ideas, how dare them, dont YOU want to be the guy that can say you have the REAL one? Yea that's what I thought, now open up that wallet and dish it out".

Like I said, the companies are taking advantage of the low supply. I have held the 'real' chi and a clone. It's DAMN hard finding any difference in quality, there is no possible way they are struggling to make as many 'real' chi's. They are just slowing down production to keep the prices sky high, guarantee it.

 

[Pinggolfer]

Like I said, the companies are taking advantage of the low supply. I have held the 'real' chi and a clone. It's DAMN hard finding any difference in quality, there is no possible way they are struggling to make as many 'real' chi's. They are just slowing down production to keep the prices sky high, guarantee it.

Really? Are there any Chinese companies actually slowing down production while other companies are making clones and selling them? Apple slowing down so it's hard to buy a I Phone, which would make me purchase a Samsung? People buy what they can purchase not what they can't purchase.

 

[BigCloudz]

Really? Are there any Chinese companies actually slowing down production while other companies are making clones and selling them? Apple slowing down so it's hard to buy a I Phone, which would make me purchase a Samsung? People buy what they can purchase not what they can't purchase.

The Chinese do not play that game. They produce in mass quantity and sell more product, probably yielding more profit than the guys ripping people off with these sky high prices.

Your comparisons are simply, off. Sorry, but it's NO where near as hard to find an iPhone than it is an original Chi or Caravela. Even still, Apple does not jack the prices up IF they are having a hard time keeping the supply up. Their prices are right there with any other new Android or smart phone.