Cloud9vaping pulls Five Pawns and other liquids from the shelf after testing.
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If C9 had a problem with the content of 5P juice, they have every right to pull the product. They have every right to use whatever criteria they wish to use in order to evaluate the products they sell. What they can't do is publicly state or imply that a vendor, especially one that is also a competitor, is harmful when they don't have rock solid evidence of harm. That is defamation.
All they had to say publicly is that they are no longer carrying 5P. They could even get away with saying that 5P was not compliant with their requirements for ingredient disclosure. But publishing those results and pulling the product based on them strongly implies that 5P is defective. They have no evidence that presence of certain chemicals is representative of defects so it's not accurate to say or imply such. This is not something anyone wants to leave in the hands of lawyers and juries.
The fact is, Five Pawns very own test results from last year show AP levels as high as 910 ppm, so it's not a question of do they contain diketones in more than trace amounts, it's only a question of how high the levels of diketones in some of their liquids really are.
I'm still scratching my head, befuddled that anyone would pay that much for juice to begin with.
That's what I was thinking as well. C9 have nothing to gain by pulling 5P from their assortment.
Oh Yeah... If Cloud9 posted Numbers that were Not what the Lab Reported, they are in Deep Do-Do.
But If I publish the Report of the Lab, or the Numerical Results of the lab, in Good Faith am I guilty of Libel if the Lab Results are Incorrect? Or does All or Part of Liability fall on the Lab?
Refresh my Memory. Because know that Everything has been Pulled it is Hard to Check it.
But did Cloud9 ever state that Five Pawns e-liquids were Harmful in any way?
Five Pawns appears to have quality control issues.
Claiming that the tests are meaningless because there's no e-liquid industry testing standard is rubbish. Assay labs have very good standards of their own. To then demonstrate that they either haven't tested their own liquids for 8 months or more or only have test results they would rather not publish is fraught with danger. I wonder why they make such a big thing of their batch numbers and production dates if "chain of supply" makes it all meaningless, according to them.
This will not end up in a court of law. C9 is within their rights to alert their customers as to why they are pulling a product from supply. And they would appear to be obligated to pull it just for the PG/VG ratios. Claiming 50/50 would be false advertising. It's nothing but a game of brinkmanship right now.
Disclosure: I've never vaped 5P liquids, but puff away on a 5P KFL+, and I've bought gear from C9.
Claiming that the tests are meaningless because there's no e-liquid industry testing standard is rubbish. Assay labs have very good standards of their own. To then demonstrate that they either haven't tested their own liquids for 8 months or more or only have test results they would rather not publish is fraught with danger. I wonder why they make such a big thing of their batch numbers and production dates if "chain of supply" makes it all meaningless, according to them.
This will not end up in a court of law. C9 is within their rights to alert their customers as to why they are pulling a product from supply. And they would appear to be obligated to pull it just for the PG/VG ratios. Claiming 50/50 would be false advertising. It's nothing but a game of brinkmanship right now.
Disclosure: I've never vaped 5P liquids, but puff away on a 5P KFL+, and I've bought gear from C9.
For me the important disagreement is not the presence of AP and whether that is harmful. (For all of 5P's protests, there is a NIOSH limit for it.)
It is far more concerning that there are three different assays for AP with wildly different results, the VG/PG ratio appears to be wholly wrong and so does the nicotine concentration. Albeit someone on here said that the VG/PG is too viscous for 30:70. That implies that either there were massive errors in Cloud9 or a nationally recognised laboratory, or that 5P's manufacturing is highly inconsistent. Two of those possible errors have implications that would be so far reaching that it is very much in the public interest to prove or disprove them.
It is far more concerning that there are three different assays for AP with wildly different results, the VG/PG ratio appears to be wholly wrong and so does the nicotine concentration. Albeit someone on here said that the VG/PG is too viscous for 30:70. That implies that either there were massive errors in Cloud9 or a nationally recognised laboratory, or that 5P's manufacturing is highly inconsistent. Two of those possible errors have implications that would be so far reaching that it is very much in the public interest to prove or disprove them.
They certainly implied it which was reinforced by pulling the product from sale. You only need to look at the reaction in this thread to see the impact on perception of 5P. The whole idea of testing for diacetyl is that diacetyl is perceived as harmful.
This I agree with. The problem, though is that there is no way to ascertain whether or not any particular lab is qualified to accurately measure levels of those ingredients. As 5P points out and the asterisks in those lab reports illustrate, there are no accreditation standards for labs to meet on most chemicals they are measuring for. This needs to change.
This is Why people who want something Tested will many times send a Sample to Two, Unique and Independent Laboratories for Analysis.
The Chances of Two Laboratories making the Same Mistake and then Reporting the Same Erroneous Numbers are Much Smaller than a Single Laboratory following a Bad Protocol.
I can say that I will not sell any e-Liquid that contain more than say 200ppm of Diacetyl. And then Pull products that do not Meet my Sales Criteria.
This is Completely Different that Stating that an OEM's e-Liquid is Harmful from a Libel standpoint.
The problem is no doctor is going to do a lung biopsy on an at-risk patient (like a smoker). He is just going to say "COPD" and send them home with an oxygen tank and some Spiriva. If every smoker with COPD had a lung biopsy done, I suspect we would see at least a few cases of B.O. in the wild.
The GMO scare was conjured up by people who don't know science (much like the organic food craze or the autism vaccine scare -- neither has scientific backing and are mostly promoted by quacks). The diketone scare, on the other hand, does have sound science behind it. We have experts at CDC saying to avoid their inhalation and we have a plethora of scientific papers published about it. This isn't some "natual foods" guy on TV saying this without any evidence. The scientific consensus is that diketones are bad for inhalation.
The only real questions seem to be: 1) Why are some people affected more so than others and 2) Are there other confounding factors besides just diacetyl. It is true that it hasn't been proved that diacetyl causes B.O., but there is a very strong association. To prove causality would involve clinical studies using human test subjects which wouldn't be legal (and will never happen). Sometimes correlations are the best we're going to get in medical science.
It may turn out, a decade from now, that this was nothing to be concerned about. Or, it may turn out to be a huge scandal that kills people. We wont know for sure for years. In the meantime, I think vendors need to be transparent and let the consumer decide.
We seem to be looking past the elephant in the room. Inhaling hot vape made from PG and VG and nicotine is not in any way good for us. Yet many, if not most in this thread, do it 100s of times per day. But we are trying to place this risk in the hands of people that make this stuff for us to do so. It's like saying that we want to know what those little specs of gold in Goldschläger is and we demand they post a report. Or demanding that tobacco growers not use pesticides in their crops. American Spirit cigarettes will kill you just as fast as Marlboros, except maybe the burned out lung cells won't be quite so black.
There will never be a safe vape. There will most likely never be safer vapes. The act in itself is bad for us but we are on a campaign to attack those that provide that which we know is bad. This thread comes across as a bit hypocritical.
With that said, we have enough regulation coming down our throats in the next year or two. Many vape companies have big disclaimers on their website about the risks involved with vaping. There is no empirical evidence that clearly states the risks of Diacetyl or Diketones but there is certainly common sense involved with the harm in vaping.
BTW.. In my earlier life, my work took me to working outside at events right close to traffic all day long, and I would take vaping any e-liquid over that any day. My skin was coated with car exhaust not to mention how I felt.
There will never be a safe vape. There will most likely never be safer vapes. The act in itself is bad for us but we are on a campaign to attack those that provide that which we know is bad. This thread comes across as a bit hypocritical.
With that said, we have enough regulation coming down our throats in the next year or two. Many vape companies have big disclaimers on their website about the risks involved with vaping. There is no empirical evidence that clearly states the risks of Diacetyl or Diketones but there is certainly common sense involved with the harm in vaping.
BTW.. In my earlier life, my work took me to working outside at events right close to traffic all day long, and I would take vaping any e-liquid over that any day. My skin was coated with car exhaust not to mention how I felt.
Darned good point what about the other ejuice companies that had bad results from the Cloud 9 test results are they screaming and crying like little girls yelling lawsuit?
Not that I've heard. And from what I've seen, at least one of them had already reformulated their liquid by the time that Cloud9 posted their results. It's not like this is some huge shock. They've had since May 5th to respond.
Ohh I had forgotten about how long the juice companies had the data before it was released. Looks worse all the time for 5P.
Goodbye folks! Rational thinking is leaving the thread. Assumptions and ignorance do not suit me well so i'm off now. Have fun with all your conspiracy theories and faulty scientific evidence.
I'm beginning to think these 5 Pawn people had something to do with the Kennedy Assassination.....
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