Community or business

[njay23]

I think we should share the love and to this end I think that I'm only going to sell stuff for the same price I paid or less. There are other people out there who are being priced out and not able to try this kit. I go to work to earn my living and don't see my hobby as a revenue stream. What say you?

WOW... How Noble!
For some people buying something rare and reselling it for a profit IS their HOBBY.
You think we should share the what now???
C'mon... Group hug everyone

 

[LongHaul]

The true greed is in the juice where they charge a 3000% markup but again something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

The hardware is another story if some guy makes something by hand that I want again I pay the price if I want the product. Caravela's are a good example, custom ordered, hand crafted and very high quality do I need it.....no do I want it bad enough to pay for it .....yes! I have the means and therefore I am getting it


Sent from my truck using 3 toasters a broken microwave and 6 rubber bands McGyver style......Chuck Norris aint got crap on me

 

[six]

The true greed is in the juice where they charge a 3000% markup but again something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

I agree... and disagree with this. The value of good juice is hard to measure. I've often balked at this or that vendors price tag on juice. But, I've also been through a few things that make me appreciate quality and consistency.

A couple of years ago, I was exclusively buying Dekang. It was cheap and I found five or six flavors I liked. I was fairly satisfied. Then the RY4 fiasco happened. What a bummer. Then, Dekang lost their flavor/recipe guy. Another huge bummer. None of the juices tasted the same any more... but I got used to a couple. Then, they messed with the recipes again... then batches became inconsistent (one bottle would taste like I expected, the next would not - then a good bottle or two then a bad one or two and so on and so forth). --- So much for Dekang. I gave up on it.

Then I moved on to a couple of boutique juice vendors (on the low end of the price scale). I found dozens of flavors I liked. I was again satisfied. For a while, anyway. I began to notice inconsistent flavors. A new bottle wouldn't taste even similar sometimes to my last couple. At first, I blamed it on steeping or my taste buds or anything else I thought was a possible cause. It wasn't any of that. A little bit could be blamed on the flavoring companies the vendors were using not having consistent batches... but a lot of it could be blamed on too many cooks in the kitchen, so to speak. One vendor I used a lot had no less than 10 people "trained" to mix juice. I had to abandon them (more or less) as well.

So, I moved up the price scale a bit. What I discovered was that the high price tag ensured me that the flavors I liked would taste the same the next time I ordered and the next time and the next. There are a handful of juice vendors I've yet to try, so I sure can't say that a high price guarantees consistency across the board, but my two favorite juice makers are in the mid-to-high price range and one of them has a perfect record with me. The other sent me one bottle of one of my favorite flavors that wasn't right one time about 10 months ago. They made it right on my next order, so that's all I can ask for. If I pay that much, I think I can also expect excellent customer service.

I've been considering DIY and I've looked through price lists on different concentrations of unflavored nic. I have a really good idea of what a gallon of VG or a gallon of PG should cost. And, I've looked at a couple of hundred recipes and priced the necessary flavors. ---> Yup. From a materials standpoint, there are a bunch of juice makers who have a pretty steep mark up. Then it just sort of depends on what they've invested in their equipment, how much they pay for their space, insurance, business licenses, employees, the power company etc etc etc to figure out if charging a few hundred percent materials is "fair" or not. And, in at least a couple of cases, I think the prices might be hard to justify even after calculating all of that up and factoring a healthy profit.

The other benefit I've found dealing with boutique juice vendors is that they often use some very high quality recipes. And, since those recipes are almost always a trade secret, then the price is what it is if I want to vape the flavor that recipe produces.

I should and will say this: there are two juice vendors I hope to never try. there are two whose prices are so far out of whack that I've refrained from buying from them. Who knows what will happen if I try them and like them. If that happens, I might end up becoming a regular customer and spending more than I want to.

 

[RickPBush]

Hi Chuckie, interesting view point. I think I'm starting to realise that.

My ten quid Viv Nova Tank works better than the Line V2 I just bought, the line leaks easily, uses juice like its going out of fashion and costs six times as much.

All this bull crap about taste etc is IMO just silly.

When I was young I lusted over expensive fountain pens but when I got one and used it I found it to be much like the Line, messy, fiddly, needed constant attention to work right and to be fair a 25p ball point bic was infinately better.

 

[rolygate]

The hippie commune model went out in the 60s...

You understand the ECF people are making money on our posts/memberships/hit counts here, too... ECF is a business for them... and a community for us.

Hardly. Everything round here is free and it was even free for the vendors up until recently, unless they wanted their own forum. Even now it's just a token fee to cover paperwork.

It's all free unless you want to click our ads. Then the vendors pay us. So it's still free for you even if you click the ads.

It's true that ECF is a mix of community and business, but the balance is always weighted in favor of the community otherwise it wouldn't work. The trade pay for the running of ECF, but they pay very little indeed. Take two cases:

1. A small-scale internet vendor based in Butte City. They pay a couple bucks a year to get exposure to tens of thousands of people every day who would be impossible for them to reach otherwise. As there are at least ten thousand completely new people who land on ECF from the search engines every day, total newcomers looking to buy something and get into vaping, it's kind of a good deal for vendors. People who know how to run a business have created multi-million dollar businesses via ECF as it's not that hard - it can't be, there are several and most would not have been able to achieve it any other way.

2. And case #2 is one of these: a vendor who started 18 months ago on ECF and now turns over $1m a year. Pick any one of a dozen or more.

So ECF is very good news indeed for many types of people: newcomers who want to know what it's all about, and get the best info available plus vetted suppliers plus reviews good and bad of those suppliers; experienced vapers, who can take part in the biggest community and see innovations and news immediately, along with the benefit of the biggest ecig market in existence; campaigners, activists, medics, and others who get access to unique resources; new businesses starting out, who get the biggest kickstart it's possible to find; and big ecig businesses, who can market to both newcomers and sophisticated vapers, and use the volume to generate new products that benefit everyone.

ECF is the most complex web set-up it is possible to imagine - a constant turmoil of many different usergroups all pushing for more influence than the others, a continuing task of protecting the resource against those who want to go too far or even destroy; trying to keep pace with the doubling of traffic every year with a fraction of the income of any of the successful ecig businesses who depend on us; a difficult balancing act that never stops its demands.

One thing it isn't is a business run at the expense of the community.

 

[gthompson]

What I discovered was that the high price tag ensured me that the flavors I liked would taste the same the next time I ordered and the next time and the next.

This has been my experience also. My cheaper "go to" suppliers early in my vaping career, for whatever reason, became wildly inconsistent. I'm paying a bit more now, but I haven't thrown any away in a long time. Is it really cheaper if half the time you can't vape it?

 

[chuckie]

Hi Chuckie, interesting view point. I think I'm starting to realise that.

My ten quid Viv Nova Tank works better than the Line V2 I just bought, the line leaks easily, uses juice like its going out of fashion and costs six times as much.

All this bull crap about taste etc is IMO just silly.

When I was young I lusted over expensive fountain pens but when I got one and used it I found it to be much like the Line, messy, fiddly, needed constant attention to work right and to be fair a 25p ball point bic was infinately better.

I only speak from my experiences over the years.
The other thing u need to understand is that this is basically a suppliers forum,and most posts are from suppliers or their friends so I wouldn't put much faith in the posts you find here.Find a few trustworthy people and follow their advice,the rest add to your ignore list. PS..as a rule of thumb,never trust reviewers or anyone with over 300 posts a month.There just isn't that much to say about a battery heating a small wire or vegetable juice with flavoring.
You'll do fine,you sound like you already get the picture....good luck to you.

 

[synthros]

Hi Chuckie, interesting view point. I think I'm starting to realise that..

My ten quid Viv Nova Tank works better than the Line V2 I just bought, the line leaks easily, uses juice like its going out of fashion and costs six times as much..

All this bull crap about taste etc is IMO just silly..

When I was young I lusted over expensive fountain pens but when I got one and used it I found it to be much like the Line, messy, fiddly, needed constant attention to work right and to be fair a 25p ball point bic was infinately better.

Vendors and friends may post more frequently, (and maybe not),but they are way outnumbered by those that don't fall into either category and post as well. Kind of like you, me and other than maybe Roly chiming in, everyone else in this thread, and hundreds probably thousands of others. Just regular people who vape. I think some healthy skepticism has slid into unhealthy cynicism..

Generalizations like "ecigs are all pieces of electronic junk", any discussions of taste is "bullcrap/silly" and "don't trust anyone with over 300 posts", may be your view on vaping, and this community, but belong where they are - in the very very smallest part of a minority opinion, and imho VERY inaccurate, even as bad generalizations go!.
There are all sorts of people approaching this thing called vaping in all sorts of ways, from a means to an end that should be achieved as thriftily as possible, to those that are passionate enthusiasts/hobbiest/collectors and creators! While you are certainly entitled to your opinion as well, ripping .a whole group of people by denigrating what they are obviously passionately interested in is impolite and impolitic at best, at worst offensive to a great many. Just my .02!

 

[Iffy]

Geeeeze, who needs some bread & cheese to go with their whine?!?!

Don't like the capitalistic system, then don't participate! But don't rant & rave when YOU can't afford what ya want for whatever reason ya want it.

I truly resent anyone comin' in here trying to reset the ECF and attempting to 're-educate' it's members! $tart your own e-cig forum $ite and $ee how far your ideali$m take$ ya. Better yet, hand out your own equipment to the masses.

For those that agree with the OP, how much would ya $pend to get the information and advice garnered here? Now, how many of ya are '$upporting Members'? Thought so...

Geeeeze...

Whew... for some 'odd' reason, that sure felt gooood!!!

 

[Orobas]

I haven't ever had occasion to utilize the classifieds, yet. Nor have I done anything besides admire the aesthetics of some of the pricier mods. But markups happen, and either people will pay the price to have it now now now, or they will be patient and wait for a more reasonable deal.

Me? I'm the patient type. If I want one, all I have to do is be proactive about keeping an eye out for the deal to show up. And some people will pay the higher price on the assumption that they could get yet more by re-reselling it.

That's the nature of capitalism. Profit isn't a dirty word to be said with a wrinkled nose.

All of this applies to any product, not just PVs.

For example, in the game SecondLife I breed and sell horses. I bred and sold this horse http://wiki.amarettobreedables.com/images/1/12/Amaretto_Appaloosa_Showhorse.jpg for approximately $125 USD.
Now, two months later, I can stroll around and pick one up for roughly $15 USD.
And this isn't even something TANGIBLE. This is a pretend pixel horse in cyberspace somewhere. Yes, someone paid me a quarter of my monthly rent for it.

It's the same thing. Some people are willing to invest more to have what they want when they want it. And the rest of us are content to wait until things go on clearance once the next revision is out.

Editted to add: $125 wasn't a price I set. It was the best offer.

 

[Strigoi]

Not everyone is out just to make a buck. I've given away 100s of mls of juice. I've sold merchandise for less than what it was worth, though I probably could have churned a profit (I personally wouldn't feel right doing so).

I'm the same way, sort of. I used to be big into mini bikes (the vintage style ones w/ 5hp Briggs engines, was second in charge of the largest forum for them on the internet) and have given away hundreds of dollars in parts to people. It's ranged from some small part a person needed to complete rollers that I've had sitting around. If i had a hard to get part I knew I could make money on I would sell it for more than I bought it though. There's one local guy that scored an almost complete mini bike from me because he was on top of my free if you want it postings. I was doing nothing with those parts and he made himself a running mini bike for next to nothing.

The only time I've "made out like a bandit" on here is with a Silver Bullet Double Barrel cap. I paid $70 or so for it from Altsmoke and sold it a year later for I think $110. It was posted in the classifieds for less than 10 minutes before it sold and I know I could have gotten much more for it.

I have no problem with people asking more than retail for something if it's hard to get. You've got to pay to play. On the other hand, I like it when people help out their fellow forum members and give them great deals on stuff.

 

[DC2]

I only speak from my experiences over the years.
The other thing u need to understand is that this is basically a suppliers forum,and most posts are from suppliers or their friends so I wouldn't put much faith in the posts you find here.Find a few trustworthy people and follow their advice,the rest add to your ignore list. PS..as a rule of thumb,never trust reviewers or anyone with over 300 posts a month.There just isn't that much to say about a battery heating a small wire or vegetable juice with flavoring.
You'll do fine,you sound like you already get the picture....good luck to you.

This post is fail.

 

[alffalvo]

I'd like some feedback from folks out there.

I have a pet hate. I guess I'm a bit of a socialist at heart and the thing that's annoying me is that people are selling stuff for more than its RRP because it's rare and otherwise unobtainable.

It just stinks of greed to me. I appreciate the powers of market forces and all but the word community has to mean something, aren't we all supposed to trying to help each other out?

There is a very limited supply of kit out there if you want a rebuild-able etc and it would be nice to think that the people who have gotten on the lists and bought this stuff only to find they want rid of it would sell it to somebody else to try at the same price they paid.

It occurs to me that this is a business, not a community.

I think we should share the love and to this end I think that I'm only going to sell stuff for the same price I paid or less. There are other people out there who are being priced out and not able to try this kit. I go to work to earn my living and don't see my hobby as a revenue stream. What say you?

socialist = an adherent or advocate of an economic system in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

I my self like FREEDOM to do & chose what I want I dont need or want anyone or government controlling me. If I feel its over priced I dont buy it however thats my opinion and someone with a little more $$ or wants it a little more or a lot more than me might think its CHEAP

No disrespect intended just my opinion / 2 cents

 

[Pappy]

To the OP: This isn't food, blankets or fuel we are dealing with here. There is nothing being sold on the ECF classifieds that is a necessity.

So, I think what you are really saying is that you WANT something and are ...... off because somebody won't sell it to you at a loss or breakeven.

 

[Strigoi]

This post is fail.

I didn't read the whole thread before posting so I missed that one and 100% agree with you. I'm actually kind of surprised to see a post like that from someone that's been here for years. 300 posts in a month is nothing on an active board like this either. That's basically 10 posts a day and not hard to do. I've only been posting on forums for the last 13 years, so I probably have no idea how they operate.

I modded on a mini bike board and racked up close to 10,000 posts in about 3 years. I guess I was on everyone's payroll there and my opinion couldn't be trusted. I'm glad that I know that now. I wish I was getting paid since I'd spend 6-8 hours a day on that site (it really was a second, thankless job). I missed out.

 

[Orobas]

I guess I was on everyone's payroll there and my opinion couldn't be trusted.

So THAT is how you afford that nice car you showed us in the other thread.

 

[alffalvo]

I only speak from my experiences over the years.
The other thing u need to understand is that this is basically a suppliers forum,and most posts are from suppliers or their friends so I wouldn't put much faith in the posts you find here.Find a few trustworthy people and follow their advice,the rest add to your ignore list. PS..as a rule of thumb,never trust reviewers or anyone with over 300 posts a month.There just isn't that much to say about a battery heating a small wire or vegetable juice with flavoring.
You'll do fine,you sound like you already get the picture....good luck to you.

EVERYONE on ECF has went out of there way to help me and NO ONE has tried to sale me any thing I have nothing but GOOD things to say about ECF & Members

 

[Strigoi]

So THAT is how you afford that nice car you showed us in the other thread.

FWIW, those cars aren't that expensive. It's the maintenance (front rotors/pads = $600 in parts, $100 for oil/filter every 7500-10,000 miles, $1000+ a year for tires) or when something goes wrong that you pay. Luckily I have a friend that works at a Mercedes shop and he can do side jobs on it. There's no way I'd own it otherwise. One round of maintenance (of several) ran me $450-$500 in parts (plus $300 I gave him for doing it) and he said it would have been well over $3,000 for that same work if I didn't know him. I can buy parts online for dollars over their cost on the same thing, so it's all mark up and labor that kills you. He's only gotten a few parts for me where it was just easier to have him order them since it was only a couple dollars difference between buying online. I'm not a baller, Mercedes just depreciate like crazy. It still has the maintenance of an $80,000 car though.

He said they got a Mercedes S65 AMG in that needed brakes. Front/rear rotors and pads was a $6,000 job on that car. Most of that was for the cost of parts. You can get those cars for under $40,000 now and I know that's something a lot of people that buy them don't think about.

 

[Orobas]

And that, my dear, is why I prefer a classic car.

At this point I can do anything but transmission work on a 80s Chrysler myself

 

[LongHaul]

I agree... and disagree with this. The value of good juice is hard to measure. I've often balked at this or that vendors price tag on juice. But, I've also been through a few things that make me appreciate quality and consistency.

A couple of years ago, I was exclusively buying Dekang. It was cheap and I found five or six flavors I liked. I was fairly satisfied. Then the RY4 fiasco happened. What a bummer. Then, Dekang lost their flavor/recipe guy. Another huge bummer. None of the juices tasted the same any more... but I got used to a couple. Then, they messed with the recipes again... then batches became inconsistent (one bottle would taste like I expected, the next would not - then a good bottle or two then a bad one or two and so on and so forth). --- So much for Dekang. I gave up on it.

Then I moved on to a couple of boutique juice vendors (on the low end of the price scale). I found dozens of flavors I liked. I was again satisfied. For a while, anyway. I began to notice inconsistent flavors. A new bottle wouldn't taste even similar sometimes to my last couple. At first, I blamed it on steeping or my taste buds or anything else I thought was a possible cause. It wasn't any of that. A little bit could be blamed on the flavoring companies the vendors were using not having consistent batches... but a lot of it could be blamed on too many cooks in the kitchen, so to speak. One vendor I used a lot had no less than 10 people "trained" to mix juice. I had to abandon them (more or less) as well.

So, I moved up the price scale a bit. What I discovered was that the high price tag ensured me that the flavors I liked would taste the same the next time I ordered and the next time and the next. There are a handful of juice vendors I've yet to try, so I sure can't say that a high price guarantees consistency across the board, but my two favorite juice makers are in the mid-to-high price range and one of them has a perfect record with me. The other sent me one bottle of one of my favorite flavors that wasn't right one time about 10 months ago. They made it right on my next order, so that's all I can ask for. If I pay that much, I think I can also expect excellent customer service.

I've been considering DIY and I've looked through price lists on different concentrations of unflavored nic. I have a really good idea of what a gallon of VG or a gallon of PG should cost. And, I've looked at a couple of hundred recipes and priced the necessary flavors. ---> Yup. From a materials standpoint, there are a bunch of juice makers who have a pretty steep mark up. Then it just sort of depends on what they've invested in their equipment, how much they pay for their space, insurance, business licenses, employees, the power company etc etc etc to figure out if charging a few hundred percent materials is "fair" or not. And, in at least a couple of cases, I think the prices might be hard to justify even after calculating all of that up and factoring a healthy profit.

The other benefit I've found dealing with boutique juice vendors is that they often use some very high quality recipes. And, since those recipes are almost always a trade secret, then the price is what it is if I want to vape the flavor that recipe produces.

I should and will say this: there are two juice vendors I hope to never try. there are two whose prices are so far out of whack that I've refrained from buying from them. Who knows what will happen if I try them and like them. If that happens, I might end up becoming a regular customer and spending more than I want to.

I can't really feel your juice pain I get my nic at 48mg from wizzard labs and flavors from (and ONLY use LoRAnn) from ecig express and have never had a problem and as I mix only 30ml bottles it cost me less than 2.00 to mix the 30ml.


Sent from my truck using 3 toasters a broken microwave and 6 rubber bands McGyver style......Chuck Norris aint got crap on me