Competition for unethical kiosks. Opinions needed!

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Big Sheepherder

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... don't mortage your home on it. Now if Almighty or Rosa would let you mortgage theirs, that might be another story. Exceptional successes establish the rule of generally losing ventures. You won't have an inkling until your due diligence is done. Either way, I would say "good luck," but informed planning is much better.
 

AlmightyGod

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... don't mortage your home on it. Now if Almighty or Rosa would let you mortgage theirs, that might be another story. Exceptional successes establish the rule of generally losing ventures. You won't have an inkling until your due diligence is done. Either way, I would say "good luck," but informed planning is much better.

Since you have the strongest opinion, you must also have the correct one.

To the OP...don't open a vape shop...you will have to mortgage your house & eat dog food...you couldn't possibly be successful in this billion dollar, ever growing industry. It's silly for you to even think you could.
 

Big Sheepherder

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I would wager AriM is more correct than not. Margins are likely too small to be palatably profitable in a small operation. And going big entails too much outlay and risk ... If you get to the point of seriousness, hire a decent transactions lawyer ("corporate lawyer") from a small or mid-sized firm with a background in accounting. Beware of folks trying to overheat you or this market.
 

AriM

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I would wager AriM is more correct than not. Margins are likely too small to be palatably profitable in a small operation. And going big entails too much outlay and risk ... If you get to the point of seriousness, hire a decent transactions lawyer ("corporate lawyer") from a small or mid-sized firm with a background in accounting. Beware of folks trying to overheat you or this market.

well I have done some research, and talked at length with my local distributor....his profit margin is pennies per item (except on his own juice blends)

the issue with "going big" isn't finance....it's liability....you will be the first on the list of picketers, lobby groups and class action suits....

people rarely go after small fish....

all that said, there is money to be made in any industry...as long as you know your variables and are well insured
 

Big Sheepherder

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AirM, Rosa's scenarios entail substantial outlays, related risk, personal guarantees, maybe covenants not to compete, etc., in addition to the downside risks you mention. Frankly, I think the industry is only a hop, skip and a jump away from getting flavored nic juices banned. The model is already there in the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, both in the actual terms of the law and its underlying congressional findings. (It is the law that deprived me of buying precious Djarum Originals in the USA due to explicit gateway concerns regarding kids.) All of the e-cig industry needs to be exceedingly careful here, including the small fries. But you are correct. The first TV interviews, protests, etc. attendant upon kids getting noticeably sick due to access to nic juice, or being busted with it, likely will occur at the largest shop in town. Be that as it may, my experience here in the Greater Phoenix Metropolitan Area is that most of these businesses haven't been succcessful enough even to man the phone diligently.
 

AriM

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AirM, Rosa's scenarios entail substantial outlays, related risk, personal guarantees, maybe covenants not to compete, etc., in addition to the downside risks you mention. Frankly, I think the industry is only a hop, skip and a jump away from getting flavored nic juices banned. The model is already there in the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, both in the actual terms of the law and its underlying congressional findings. (It is the law that deprived me of buying precious Djarum Originals in the USA due to explicit gateway concerns regarding kids.) All of the e-cig industry needs to be exceedingly careful here, including the small fries. But you are correct. The first TV interviews, protests, etc. attendant upon kids getting noticeably sick due to access to nic juice, or being busted with it, likely will occur at the largest shop in town. Be that as it may, my experience here in the Greater Phoenix Metropolitan Area is that most of these businesses haven't been succcessful enough even to man the phone diligently.

I would tend to agree on some of your points. Selling nicotine based juice in a mall is a BIG BIG BIG mistake and is only asking for non-sensible regulation. I don't have any problems with it (selling nicotine juice). IMO the job is on parents to educate their children. The easiest way to make something coveted by youth is to make it illicit and hard to obtain. I digress.

I think any small business cash outlay under $10million is small potatoes. At least that is how economics define it. Well i am slightly incorrect, the basis is on number of employees, but that can derive a hard cash value (depending on location). I know that my local distro. employs under 10 people.

I agree that regardless of size or cash outlay, all vendors are at risk. That is why the big boys are overseas ; )

The most profitable segment of this business, and the one least prone to class action suite...would be mod devices. You are charging a premium and have almost no competition (as long as your device is unique) and you are not selling any substance that contains nicotine (which I will sate again...I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH)....on some level you would assume liability (health liability) but far less than someone selling juice.

I think the issue comes down to keeping overhead low (my distro does answer the phone every time). You can't staff a service/help desk when your profit margin is less than 13%. Also when health liabilities and insurance come into the picture, it would decimate your bottom line. Insurance isn't determined by profit margin, it's determined by risk. You could operate a non-profit business that did something dangerous (let's say roofing) and your premium would be just about the same as a for-profit doing similar business.

I think this vaping thing will remain a cottage industry (here in the USA), simply because of associated liability and the fact that our government has decided that it can make choices for us about what we put into our bodies....again I digress and won't even go down that road....

If it does remain "small" then the motivation for any lobby group or legal group to go after a sole proprietor is almost zero. You can't collect anything from a guy/gal who has nothing. It;s exactly what the music business has done to itself. Gone after children for money they don't have. Spent hundreds of millions fighting for further regulation. The only outcome has been self imposed implosion. In lay terms, they went broke fighting against un-collectable judgments.

On the other side, I hope I am dead wrong about all of this, because I love this alternative to smoking...I don't want to see it go away and I like the fact that people are making and selling good here in the USA....
 

AriM

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You guys are bumming me out. :(

It would be realy nice to have a try-before-you-buy place for flavors. I hate buying juice online. Never now how it will taste.

The one kioks I visited were not only overpriced, but claimed to have the only FDA approved e-cig on the market... Luckly, I'm not a sucker. :facepalm:

I know it bums me out too....

hahaha FDA approval on an electronic device? what a joke....ok maybe approval on the juice, or at least the food adatives in it

since the fed has claimed juice/ecigs to be "tobacco products" (even they contain no tobacco *scratched head*). then they would clearly fall under jurisdiction of the ATF....so much for policy working for us
 

Calypso

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Being one of the +45 crowd I do like to see the physical item before buying. Especially when it's a new type of item like an e-cig. But not knowing that there was a B&M store "near" me I took the plunge and ordered on line. I later stopped at te Indy vapor shop. There were 9 customers inside. AlmightyGod can atest to the fact that the shop is very small and in a "low rent district" but was doing a very good business. They are also only open Mon-Thur which I hate since I cannot stop unless I take time off from work. They do have a web site and very good service. Maybe a B&M store "off of the strip" would be a good place to start combined with a little local advertising. People are searching for this type of shop.
 

AlmightyGod

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Being one of the +45 crowd I do like to see the physical item before buying. Especially when it's a new type of item like an e-cig. But not knowing that there was a B&M store "near" me I took the plunge and ordered on line. I later stopped at te Indy vapor shop. There were 9 customers inside. AlmightyGod can atest to the fact that the shop is very small and in a "low rent district" but was doing a very good business. They are also only open Mon-Thur which I hate since I cannot stop unless I take time off from work. They do have a web site and very good service. Maybe a B&M store "off of the strip" would be a good place to start combined with a little local advertising. People are searching for this type of shop.

If all someone wants to see is the negative, then that's all they will see. The mall ecig vendors are thriving, so are the Internet sellers. Why this thread has taken a negative view toward a storefront, I do not know.

Ecigs move more toward the mainstream every single day.

There is absolutely no reason the op could not start a successful business.

What could happen with the law & liability...I don't know. The courts have already sided with ecigs. I don't see any reason why that won't continue. Even if they got rid of all the flavors except tobacco & menthol...ecigs are here to stay.
 

Calypso

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Acltually my comments were not ment to be negative, except for the business hours part. I love to look at all of the toys. The point was that even though they are a very small shop they were doing a huge business. I'd love to stop by there more. I currently have a DSE801 and am looking to upgrade. That being said I'd like to see the options in person. Looks like I may need a vacations day to do some up close and personal shopping.
 

AriM

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If all someone wants to see is the negative, then that's all they will see. The mall ecig vendors are thriving, so are the Internet sellers. Why this thread has taken a negative view toward a storefront, I do not know.

Ecigs move more toward the mainstream every single day.

There is absolutely no reason the op could not start a successful business.

What could happen with the law & liability...I don't know. The courts have already sided with ecigs. I don't see any reason why that won't continue. Even if they got rid of all the flavors except tobacco & menthol...ecigs are here to stay.


I don't see the thread as negative at all. It is simply outlining the possibilities and liabilities that exist in starting ANY small business. Especially one that is selling a drug (yes nicotine is a drug). Like I said I have no problem with it, but these same issues would pop up for a guy trying to go into the business of selling advil or any other drug or food product. There are possible liabilities and risks that are greater than other small business options. Also if the profit margin is so slim, one has to consider why they would invest in this business, vs. a simple AAA rated market fund. If they both return 3-5% then why do all the work and assume the liability of the B&M operation. I think you can see it as negative if you choose to, but it's reality. You can spin reality any way you like, but it doesn't change the facts. I think many people here are/have presented the facts in a very plain and logical manner. It is always up to the proprietor to do their own due process.

:vapor::blush:
 

Big Sheepherder

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The courts have not "sided" with e-cigs. Rather, on December 7, 2010, the Federal DC Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed a Federal District Court (trial level) ruling that the FDA cannot regulate under the FDCA (a very onerous regimen) any particular e-cig maker, distributor or seller in the absence of associated therapeutic claims. Moreover, in that case, there was strong judicial encouragement for pursuing regulations/action under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (the "Act"). However, Federal Courts generally do not adjudicate hypothetical cases due to Art. III of the US Constitution (the actual "case or controversy" requirement). Inasmuch as the Act and related, developed regulations were not then before them, the case was not decided on that basis. See SOTTERA, INC. v. FOOD & DRUG ADMINISTRATION.-.Argued September 23, 2010. But just wait and see what happens shortly down the road. That is why there really is not much room for future optimism in certain, but not all, e-cig-related areas. Now I am not saying don't open an e-cig business, but let's not be PollyAnna about all prospects either. If you can make it legitimately, then more power to you.
 
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AriM

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Just because a store front has foot traffic, doesn't mean that a business is profitable or thriving....one can only come to that conclusion by auditing the financial records of the business in question.

Example:

let's say that I have foot traffic of approx. 100 people per day. Each of those customers yields me a gross profit of $1 each (assuming that the remainder is returned to the distributor for restock). My overhead is $5000 per month. I would be operating at a loss.....

just because a business has customers, doesn't mean they are making profit....

the e-cig market is EXTREMELY low profit margin....you need to sell in massive volume (or charge $125 per kit) to stay in business

also I don't see how a store would beat out a mall kiosk....the kiosk has less overhead and a higher profit margin....the only way to beat them out would be advertising....and then all the kiosk has to do is move from the mall you open your shop in to another venue....kiosks are easy to move....storefronts aren't

I am not trying to be negative, just playing the devils advocate
 
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ChipHead

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I'm new to vaping, almost a week. I bought into the safecig product and now they can't provide me with cartridges. I have two left. So I find out through this site there's a shop that sells ecig stuff 8 miles from me. A tattoo place. So i call and speak to a lady and tell her I'm looking for rn4081 cartomizers. Whaaat??? The kid who runs the ecig portion is not in but she thinks they ordered some but it'll be two week 'cause they come from China. I was excited about stopping by there and getting what I needed NOW. Ain't happening. I know very little about this whole industry but there seems to be very little standardization and even less knowledge about cross compatibility. Couple that with the fact that this whole legal/not legal/FDA crap kind of reminds me of shops selling bongs and papers back in the day. Don't get me wrong, I'm in. Ordered juice and some carts from azsmokefree but I sure would have rather supported a local business and walked in there and bought what I need. Right now it's a niche market. My 2 cents.

Edit: oh yeah, I'm old but buy a lot of things via the web.
 

LastoftheBreed

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Damn, didn't mean to start a fight guys. I appreciate ALL the comments here. So-called "negative" as well as supportive. This is the thought process I myself go through before even considering a business venture. The upside to this is I am only one person, additional thoughts bouncing back and forth in this fashion, may land upon ideas I hadn't previously considered.

Wow, I was only seeking input from a potential market of dedicated product users if the idea of a physical place of business would be appealing to them for their products, whether it be kiosk, mall store, brick & mortar in a strip, etc. This discussion is awesome.

As far as overhead is concerned. One would hope a vendor would be able to find product suppliers willing to distribute their products at a lower cost to the vendor than the average online buyer pays, since said vendor would be purchasing MANY items. For instance, if a product supplier is willing to provide the vendor a certain product item for 20% less than it may sell the same product to the average individual online, with the understanding that the vendor would purchase no less than say 50-100 units of that product, then the vendor is in a position to mark the product up as much as 20-30%. This negotiation process is variable of course depending on product, item, etc. Thus insuring a fair price for the product, and a fair profit for themselves. This is only slightly higher in cost than one could find them online with the added bonus of being a physically tangible purchase and direct communication with a knowledgeable vendor dedicated to quality service. (Cus' if he ain't, he ain't in business. ;) )

This is how things work with ALL products and vendors. I won't even go into the mark-up on food in restaurants, liquor in bars, coffee in gourmet coffee shops, etc. Vendors pay MUCH less than the avg. individual customer, just due to simple amount of purchase at a time. That's why special orders cost more at stores, the vendor THEN has to pay the much higher mark-up for the product.
 
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