Cops mistaking ecigs for Other Stuff

[CookingWithGuns]

And unless you have something to hide, no big deal. If you refuse, they have reason to get a warrant based on suspicion. Why go through all that hassle over a vape? Five minute test on the side of the road, or five month court battle? I'll take five minutes.

In Missouri it isn't reason enough to get a warrant However granting them permission now gives them the right to take my fingerprints, and blood. No thanks. If I'm driving somewhere, I probably don't have 5 minutes to spare over some BS.

A refusal of unreasonable search and seizure is not probable cause in ANY way, shape or form. We do NOT (or rather should not) have to defend ourselves against warrantless search, questioning, etc. That right is already granted to us.

However in 43 (I think its 43) states, a refusal could possibly be enough for "reasonable suspicion" which is enough for a search of your car and person without a warrant. There aren't many probable cause states anymore which require actual probable cause for search and seizure just like with getting a warrant.

Now the problem is that in certain areas of the country *cough cough* California *cough cough* it is perfectly reasonable to assume that someone with a vaping apparatus isn't vaping e-juice and it gives them reason enough there to check you out. This is one of the reason why I actually think we should start actively supporting non-smokers getting into the vaping culture (albeit at no-nicotine), to grow our base so we have more people to argue what we feel our rights are.

 

[CookingWithGuns]

For all of you that are claiming fake, etc. understand the herbal markets are growing just as ours is. Don't think for one second that they are using the same design technologies we use.

They do use the same designs though. I didn't realize until I started vaping full-time three weeks ago and people saw me with my stuff just how many people I knew actually vaped. They were all like "oh I thought you quit" and things like that, and it never occurred to them I was vaping e-juice. However just about none of them vaped e-juice. Hell I know of someone that uses a ProVari and another uses a Volt with cartos to vape... other stuff. Their vaping market and culture have been around longer than ours, and are responsible for many of our designs.

Someone here nailed it, their culture doesn't participate in our culture so many of us don't realize just how large their group is. Until legalization is at the federal level, I think they are the loudest threat to our vaping rights.

 

[hytek]

Well said! I just dont get how for a minute the government could get away with this. Im only 26 so I havent seen the government regulate to many things. How will they be able to stop the sale of these devices? The herbal market I think just relabels there products for something else. Wont ecigs just do the same?

The problem is that we are on attack from all sides. If the FDA wins, all electronic cigarette paraphanelia will be regulated under medical devices and be made illegal for sale to the general public unless they pass rigorous studies. Virtually crippling all sales and current research in the field.

If Big Tobacco wins, we will be free to do what we want, but new vapers are more likely to try big tobaccos vaping products which will probably have contaminants and poisons because we know how much they like to use poisons.

If Mothers against everything organizations convince small locals to start banning ecigs as drug paraphanelia head shops will be closed down.

If Mothers against everything and Big Pharma/FDA win, then herb smokers will not be able to claim that it is a device meant for tobacco, because it will no longer be for tobacco products it will be a regulated medicinal device, and thus headshops will be illegal if they hold such devices.

If FDA and BigPharma and Monterhs against everything win, then Big tobacco still wins because people go back to smoking cigarettes.

We are litterally the smallest percentage in all of these groups, yet somehow we are winning. But every single instance of bad publicity weakens our claim.

 

[Hill]

Well said! I just dont get how for a minute the government could get away with this. Im only 26 so I havent seen the government regulate to many things. How will they be able to stop the sale of these devices? The herbal market I think just relabels there products for something else. Wont ecigs just do the same?

To an extent that will happen but the vast majority of devices will be seized at customs. And if the government really wants to crack down all they have to do is ask China's government to stop the folks making these devices. And China not wanting to jeopardize they're "Cash Cow" ie America and seeing how China is a communist country that crack down would be swift and complete. and by the way I appologize for the stupid people statement i was being flippant.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

First PV ----> http://http://www.e-cig.org/2009/11/07/new-invention-of-1963-the-smokeless-non-tobacco-cigarette/

http://http://www.google.com/patents?id=RjlUAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
For some reason you have to scroll up to see the drawing.

 

[hytek]

That wasnt a PV, It was a personal flavored air heater.

 

[Glen Snyder]

A refusal of unreasonable search and seizure is not probable cause in ANY way, shape or form. We do NOT (or rather should not) have to defend ourselves against warrantless search, questioning, etc. That right is already granted to us.

It's all relative to your location. Living only an hour south of the poster I can assure you that ALL the local LE agencies use that a a matter of rote and MOST any Judge will issue a warrant on their assertion of 'suspicion'.

 

[CookingWithGuns]

First PV ----> http://http://www.e-cig.org/2009/11/07/new-invention-of-1963-the-smokeless-non-tobacco-cigarette/

http://http://www.google.com/patents?id=RjlUAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
For some reason you have to scroll up to see the drawing.

Far from the first PV. That was just the first patented mini-style design. There have been stories about people vaping things as far back as the 30s.

 

[Leithan]

In Missouri it isn't reason enough to get a warrant However granting them permission now gives them the right to take my fingerprints, and blood. No thanks. If I'm driving somewhere, I probably don't have 5 minutes to spare over some BS.



However in 43 (I think its 43) states, a refusal could possibly be enough for "reasonable suspicion" which is enough for a search of your car and person without a warrant. There aren't many probable cause states anymore which require actual probable cause for search and seizure just like with getting a warrant.

Now the problem is that in certain areas of the country *cough cough* California *cough cough* it is perfectly reasonable to assume that someone with a vaping apparatus isn't vaping e-juice and it gives them reason enough there to check you out. This is one of the reason why I actually think we should start actively supporting non-smokers getting into the vaping culture (albeit at no-nicotine), to grow our base so we have more people to argue what we feel our rights are.

Really, Really! Ca has a large and growing Vaping community and by vaping I mean legal nic juice. There are some great people doing extraordinary service to the vaping community, making the public aware, fighting bans and educating. I love how folks who don't live here and aren’t part of the local scene just make the assumption that "that it's perfectly reasonable to assume that a CA vaper's apparatus contains something other than e-juice" it's those stereotypes that fuel local governments drive to ban and or classify PVs as drug paraphernalia. And drawing non smokers into vaping? Are you serious? That’s all we need, with all the hassle and misinformation that exists already, our best hope is "Threat Reduction". We start hooking non smokers and it's over.
In case you haven’t noticed, CA has one of the largest over regulated populations of smokers in the US. Smokers here have been living under the oppressive thumb of Government for years. I think the future of vaping is getting more smokers over to our side. Promoting threat reduction and showing that Vaping is a healthier alternative. Not spreading B.S. about such a large population of vapers. If Ca goes than a precedent will have been set, the rest of the states won’t be far behind.
If it’s perfectly reasonable to assume the All CA vapers are “Heads” then it’s perfectly reasonable to make a few assumptions based on your statements as well:
So what Tobacco company do you work for CookingWithGuns?

 

[Judge Dredd]

Any reference to an illegal substance is not allowed on ECF regardless of context.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ation/255864-why-we-dont-allow-drug-talk.html

 

[tj99959]

Thanks JD ......

 

[patkin]

There's a thread here started by a young woman who was scared out of her wits by an ignorant cop who treated her very harshly without cause and made her dump all her juice out on the ground. Others chimed in on that thread... sorry, too busy to look for it now.

When I first started vaping I was interested in box mods. First I wanted an Altoids mod and couldn't find one because they were dropped due to the "other stuff" folks. Then I wanted a plain black plastic one and changed my mind on that because a cop thought someone who had one was carrying a detonator. So now I just stick with my cigalike if I ever vape in public.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Far from the first PV. That was just the first patented mini-style design. There have been stories about people vaping things as far back as the 30s.

Credible source?

Stories about vaping vs US patent.

Old Macdonald had a farm, ei ei o, and on that farm he had a PV, ei ei o, with a puff puff here and a vape vape there...


Never had or heard about a single vape / law enforcement issue from anywhere other than the interweb.

 

[Kristin0624]

Refusal is NEVER a reason to obtain a warrant and should in no way raise any suspicion. If that were true then we truly do live in a police state and I refuse to believe decent people would let that happen to them.

I agree, but I still think if you have nothing to hide, you'd waste the same five minutes arguing with a cop than you would just letting him do a quick search.

Sent from my LG-MS770 using Tapatalk 2

 

[440BB]

I vape with smokers regularly. They often ask "What have you got in there?" with a wink. If the smoker right next to me wonders what's in my clearo, why wouldn't law enforcement? I expect it to come up at some time in the future, and keep CASAA info with me. Common sense.

 

[Kristin0624]

No, actually to me it's just saying "sure officer, I have nothing to hide."

Sent from my LG-MS770 using Tapatalk 2

 

[dejavoodoo]

I find that even more bloody annoying that other stuff is being made legal, but our right to quit smoking is the biggest booger on the table. Grrr

Brilliant (and tragic) observation.

 

[EddardinWinter]

The Fourth Amendment

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Please explain to me how a LEO asking, "Can I search your car/house/pockets/etc." And me replying (after turning on my recording device), "No officer, you may not, under any circumstances do that." in any way creates probable cause?

I am simply enforcing my 4th amendment rights. Particularly when I have nothing to hide. My privacy is worth more than anything in my pockets and car. My right to say no to a policeman is a priceless gift. Well worth whatever court time I have to spend defending it.

It is mine, and will remain so, until I give it away.

Watch the video before you say, "I have nothing to hide." There is absolutely no way to know what the agenda of the police officer is. What if they are fishing for you to incriminate your husband, wife, son, mother, or sister? You have everything to lose, and nothing to gain.

 

[CookingWithGuns]

Please explain to me how a LEO asking, "Can I search your car/house/pockets/etc." And me replying (after turning on my recording device), "No officer, you may not, under any circumstances do that." in any way creates probable cause?

The Feds should need probable cause, but most states have the standard lowered to "reasonable suspicion" instead of probable cause. Reasonable suspicion has been upheld in some places as being as simple as a gut feeling from the officer. So if "his gut tells him" you are saying no because you are hiding something illegal, he has reasonable suspicion to search you.

 

[EddardinWinter]

Watch this video.



He had nothing to hide, he was doing nothing illegal. Now his dog is dead because the brainless triggerhappy cop could not predict that the dog would defend its master.

They killed his dog because he was recording them on a public sidewalk. This right to videotape on public property has been upheld every time it has been challenged. The police are servants of the law, they are not above the law. But, you subject your freedom to their power every time you consent to talk to them, let them search your private papers, or permit them access to your life in any way.

Most cops are good people doing a tough job. You want to bet your freedom, property, and livelihood on it every time you deal with one?