D/AP concerns. Vocal minority?

[JavaJunkie]

Went to a vape meet and every flavor I tried (20+), contained D/AP. I could taste it. That greasy melted butter flavor. Some had so much that it left a coating on my tongue. Granted I was focusing on cereal and dessert flavors which stacks the sample pool because those flavors are the most likely to contain them. One flavor was so laden with it that I could smell it when I opened the bottle (away from my face). This was a small meet.

I went to a large convention a few months ago and I could smell it in the air and just about every flavor contained it.

I've been to a few other meets and conventions and I saw the same thing. The industry is saturated with dessert flavors, cereal flavors are on a plateau, and tobaccos are a no-show. Also, I didn't hear one question about D/AP. Not a single vendor made claims. Not a single lab sheet to be seen.

I enjoy people watching and vapers are an interesting group, but not a single question? Not a single claim? Either I really missed it or is this a "forum issue"? Is this an issue of the people who frequent forums who, it seems logical to me, would be the most involved with vaping. People might show up at meets and cons just to get free samples and make some purchases, but forum visitors don't have any extrinsic rewards for our participation. We come here to discuss vaping, learn, and share information. It's all intrinsic rewards.

We see D/AP as a big issue for our industry. We see it as something everyone is concerned about. Are we falling victim to sample bias?

I've seen thousands of vendor booths. If this issue really was a big issue for vapers in general, shouldn't I have seen at least one "lab results available upon request" or heard one vendor say, "And all of our flavors have been tested for D/AP." They're quick to mention labs and clean rooms even though I didn't hear anyone ask that.

Are my observations incomplete?

Is my logic flawed?

Or is this an issue for a vocal minority?

 

[Robert Cromwell]

D/AP is an issue, but not for everyone.
It should be listed on the bottle so one can make an informed decision on whether to vape it or not.
And any vendor who lies about it should not be in business.
Me? I think it is tasty and vape it.
Still likely to be far less dangerous than smoking.

 

[edyle]

what's 'AP'?

 

[Robert Cromwell]

acetyl propionyl
Used in many/most creamy flavorings.

 

[englishmick]

Went to a vape meet and every flavor I tried (20+), contained D/AP. I could taste it. That greasy melted butter flavor. Some had so much that it left a coating on my tongue. Granted I was focusing on cereal and dessert flavors which stacks the sample pool because those flavors are the most likely to contain them. One flavor was so laden with it that I could smell it when I opened the bottle (away from my face). This was a small meet.

I went to a large convention a few months ago and I could smell it in the air and just about every flavor contained it.

I've been to a few other meets and conventions and I saw the same thing. The industry is saturated with dessert flavors, cereal flavors are on a plateau, and tobaccos are a no-show. Also, I didn't hear one question about D/AP. Not a single vendor made claims. Not a single lab sheet to be seen.

I enjoy people watching and vapers are an interesting group, but not a single question? Not a single claim? Either I really missed it or is this a "forum issue"? Is this an issue of the people who frequent forums who, it seems logical to me, would be the most involved with vaping. People might show up at meets and cons just to get free samples and make some purchases, but forum visitors don't have any extrinsic rewards for our participation. We come here to discuss vaping, learn, and share information. It's all intrinsic rewards.

We see D/AP as a big issue for our industry. We see it as something everyone is concerned about. Are we falling victim to sample bias?

I've seen thousands of vendor booths. If this issue really was a big issue for vapers in general, shouldn't I have seen at least one "lab results available upon request" or heard one vendor say, "And all of our flavors have been tested for D/AP." They're quick to mention labs and clean rooms even though I didn't hear anyone ask that.

Are my observations incomplete?

Is my logic flawed?

Or is this an issue for a vocal minority?

Interesting questions. I've never been to a public vape event myself. I suppose nobody knows the numbers for vapers. How many go to meets, how many hang out on forums, whatever. I think it's a fair guess that most vapers buy stuff at high street stores, and never go to meets or forums. And those folks most likely never heard of DK's and don't have the information to make a decision about whether to consume them.

That's probably true about all consumables. A minority with the time and curiosity are going to dig down into this stuff, and they will be the ones who lead consumer opinion. For better or worse.

I've tasted a few juices courtesy of the handful of vapers I know in real life. I think they were all heavy on DK's. The ones I remembered the names of were because I looked them up afterwards. The donors had no idea and didn't care. I found them sort of delicious but over the top. Like overly sweet tea or something.

Now I'm going to get out of here before the logic warriors show up.

 

[DeAnna2112]

It's the same thing I find with awareness of deeming and changes that may be coming to the vaping industry. It's scary, troubling and concerning...if most vapers are not proactive and don't even give a crap on things as basic as FDA or DA/AP what does that mean for the industry as a whole. Is it that they just don't know because they are not proactive vapers but lazy vapors, or fully aware but don't give a crap and just vape away on their pen anyway?

Let's not forget the vendors in all of this...they don't seem to care either or have a clue..if they did they would not be practicing business in regards to diketones the way they are making matters worse in light of deeming....oh and speaking of deeming..most of them don't even know about deeming!!! yet they are the one's who should be the most knowledgeable and proactive. It's a lazy generation and the vaping industry is full of them.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

It's only an issue for some vapers! I respect those who want their liquid free of the stuff but I'm not concerned. I smoked for over 20 years. And cigarettes contain way more diacetyl and 2000 other harmful ingredients. You don't see it listed on the side of a pack of cigarettes nor do you hear of anyone fighting for a diacetyl free cigarette. The FDA doesn't require cigarette makers to list it but it's in there.

I love my diacetyl laden juices. I'm sure they are still 99% safer than smoking. I will continue vaping the good stuff.

There's no evidence that it is even a real issue with the trace amounts in vaping. Nobody has any evidence to the contrary.

I've been vaping for over 4 years and my lungs have healed completely. I'm even a very heavy vaper.

 

[JavaJunkie]

I should clarify that I also enjoy the taste of D/AP in flavors when used in small amounts. If I get that heavy greasy taste, it's too much for me. Basically, if there's so much in there that I can identify it, it's too much for my palate. Same applies to butyric acid too. In small amounts it can really add to flavor, but cross the line and you get that hint of bile. Sure it's in cheese, butter, and other dairy products and it's responsible for flavor, but use too much and you're reminded that it's also what provides the distinct smell of vomit.

 

[ReigntheGamer]

It's only an issue for some vapers! I respect those who want their liquid free of the stuff but I'm not concerned. I smoked for over 20 years. And cigarettes contain way more diacetyl and 2000 other harmful ingredients. You don't see it listed on the side of a pack of cigarettes nor do you hear of anyone fighting for a diacetyl free cigarette. The FDA doesn't require cigarette makers to list it but it's in there.

I love my diacetyl laden juices. I'm sure they are still 99% safer than smoking. I will continue vaping the good stuff.

There's no evidence that it is even a real issue with the trace amounts in vaping. Nobody has any evidence to the contrary.

I've been vaping for over 4 years and my lungs have healed completely. I'm even a very heavy vaper.

But this one time at a popcorn plant someone got sick from chemicals so obviously that applies to vaping.

 

[WillyZee]

really, lol? ... you could smell it in the air?

 

[WhiteHighlights]

I'd guess that a minority of vapers are aware of DKs and a portion of that group view it as an avoidable risk. Edit: Elizabeth beat me - there are more DK in cigarettes (along with everything else) and there isn't evidence of harm to vapers so many aren't concerned.

As for vendors - since DK's aren't a verfied risk, they aren't obliged to disclose them. Kudos to those that do and are on the leading edge of safety. If someone asks, I'd expect an honest answer (yes/no/I don't know).

I'd like to see more vendor activity around the deeming regs - it's important to their business and they have the ability to reach the users and help educate and motivate them. I haven't been to a convention or B&M in my 2+ years of vaping. Some online vendors have sent out messages and put banners on their site, other's nada.

ps. Yes Willy, some of us can smell DKs. I've become more sensitive to it since nearly eliminating it from my DIY.

 

[edyle]

if you go on a car forum they talk about all sorts of things the average driver has never heard of.

 

[AzPlumber]

Ahhh the smell of diktones on a crisp desert morning.

What's next in the fight to save vapers worldwide? Nickel? Titanium? Aluminum? Iron? Chromium? all of which can be very toxic.

 

[WillyZee]

DAP is not just in custard flavours ... I don't believe we will ever uncover a serious situation (like that popcorn worker) in casual vaping that replaces smoking (I'm not counting hobby vapers blowing through 30ml per day, those guys have taken DAP vaping to an X-Games level).

However, I do believe it will be the final unproven scare tactic to finally lock down vaping as cigalike cartridges only

 

[Visus]

really, lol? ... you could smell it in the air?

Once you know the taste and smell of diacetyl it is easily detected. Nude nicotine did a forum on that and yes it is easily detected by either taste or smell.

 

[Visus]

The problem is people assume there's more diacetyl in analogs than in our vaping e joos. The truth is in some ejoos there's so much more in your small 3ml tanks than in a whole pack of analogs.. This is why it is scary because for sales a vendor will use diacetyl as it is an uber delicious enhancer.. Naturally slow steeped occurring diacetyl is total different horse than purposely adding it and from tests quite a few are adding it and it will just grow as it ages..

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

The problem is people assume there's more diacetyl in analogs than in our vaping e joos. The truth is in some ejoos there's so much more in your small 3ml tanks than in a whole pack of analogs.. This is why it is scary because for sales a vendor will use diacetyl as it is an uber delicious enhancer.. Naturally slow steeped occurring diacetyl is total different horse than purposely adding it and from tests quite a few are adding it and it will just grow as it ages..

Can you post proof that any ejuice contains more than a whole pack of cigarettes? Or is this an assumption? Everything I've researched shows cigarettes are way more potent with the stuff.

I've yet to see any eliquid maker purposely put diacetyl in juice. It comes in certain flavors which many vapors want. I agree maybe they should be more transparent but the FDA doesn't even require cigarette makers to list all their toxins. They have no ingredients listed.

 

[AzPlumber]

Once you know the taste and smell of diacetyl it is easily detected. Nude nicotine did a forum on that and yes it is easily detected by either taste or smell.

Must be true if found on a forum

Naturally slow steeped occurring diacetyl is total different horse than purposely adding it and from tests quite a few are adding it and it will just grow as it ages..

Flavoring manufacturers must keep their Diacetyl in a balloon.

 

[sofarsogood]

Once you know the taste and smell of diacetyl it is easily detected. Nude nicotine did a forum on that and yes it is easily detected by either taste or smell.

So how about some guidance or is there a video on the topic.

I started mixing at home a couple of months ago. I started with one flavor and using it ever since, something called Cuppucino by Capella. It's seems to have a creamy taste. The seller, MFS doesn't address the diacetyl issue as far as I can tell. What I want to do is settle on a flavor or two that I like and leave it at that. Why not something benign? I'm not searching endlessly for the perfect taste or the perfect anything. If you mix and rebuild vaping is free. I like the money I'm saving.

 

[motordude]

Again!