Why certain regulations and bans make perfect sense

[Jman8]

As OP of this thread, I must say that this thread has gone a little off topic since post #2. I participated in that because the issue of kids and vaping is really at the heart of all regulations as I understand politics. And the title for this thread certainly implies that in this thread, if you wish to participate, it is okay to talk about any possible regulation that vaping could someday face.

But as noted in OP, I am, or was, addressing the vapers among us who appear on countless other threads arguing for self enforced regulation whereby vapers will not vape openly in public, and instead, as the argument generally goes, only vape in designated smoking sections.

So, following in that logic (which I strongly disagree with), I chose another regulation that I understand to be on the table, which is restricting flavors of vaping to only tobacco and menthol.

I do believe if there is statewide bans on public vaping, and there are numerous vapers who roll over on this issue, then I think those same vapers could conceivably roll over on the flavor options, based on the reasoning I often see them employ. To me, that almost always appears as being respectful (presumably to all persons in public) and conforming to currently accepted norms, whereby if smokers can't openly smoke, then vapers will be sending a wrong message to public and perhaps especially smokers that we have different / better rights to exhale our product. This of course gets convoluted when there are vapers amongst us who are purporting that nicotine and flavored juices, when exhaled, are to some degree harmful and to a large degree disrespectful as, the rationale often goes, we vapers are blowing huge clouds in people's faces. AND, no one wants to smell your (insert wonderful flavor here).

As one who is still a smoker, I'm not sure I fully understand why tobacco companies are disallowed from making flavored cigarettes and cigars. The way I understand it is based on idea that those flavors are to entice children into a habit that will likely be with them for life.

I don't know if that policy can be changed, where there would be legal ability for BT to make flavored tobacco. I'm thinking that it won't ever be changed, and that most vapers don't care if it is, or are okay if it is not. Yet, I would say one of the biggest pros for vaping is the vast amount of flavors we are able to (currently) legally purchase and enjoy.

Admittedly, I don't know exactly how all this will play out once regulations become active in their move to legislate. Again, main point of this thread is that I do believe there will be segment of the vaping population that will roll over on the flavor issue. And if it is tied at all to what smokers are currently allowed (to do) in society, then I think vaping community will be in a tough place politically. For if it is true, what many vapers say (me included) that these wonderful assortment of flavors are as much, if not more, appealing to adults, then that would seem to question why BT can't make flavored tobacco. And if that policy with tobacco simply will not change, just like the smoke anywhere you like policy simply will not change (to what it once was), then I think there will be vapers who make a switch to tobacco, menthol or unflavored juices and push for all other vapers to be 'respectful' and use 'common sense' given the ignorance that rest of society has with vaping, and particularly with exhaled vapor, or secondhand 'smoke.'

 

[toddrhodes]

Jman8, love your post, it is eloquent and to the point. Let me say one thing, not knowing for sure why BT can't produce "flavored" cigs: If flavoring is the issue, sticking strictly with tobacco products, why is it that they can produce flavored dip/chewing tobacco with no limitations? I know one can purchase fruit, tobacco, and mint flavors of chewing tobacco. Seems to be a double standard, no? Like you, I am of the mind that the reason BT is not able to produce flavored products is due to the targeting of minors which honestly I don't understand, but that's how I remember it at least. Rhetorically, what allows producers of chewing tobacco - a regulated product of course - to produce flavors while cigarette manufacturers cannot?

 

[Renkrik]

Why is Menthol an acceptable flavor and not vanilla? I like to joke that it was the flavor the President smoked at the time. When the ban went into effect my wifes cloves were outlawed. Djarum changed the formula and calls them cigars now so they still have a product. You can still have flavored cigars and pipe weed but not cigs they taste bad compared to the older and better formula. She has tried at least 6 different juice flavors and none of them come close nor do I think it will ever be possible to make one, Cloves are coated with sweeteners and burn differently than cigs its been hard for here to switch over completely.

The American tobacco companies went along with the ban because most of the flavored cigs did not come from them, they were imports, now they are off the market.

I do however disagree that tobacco companies were marketing to children, they were marketing to 18-25 year olds who are adults and have every right to choose vanilla if they want. Whats next? You will only be allowed to purchase plain potato chips because the flavors are attracting children and making them fat, oh except government sanctioned Ranch flavor because that is what the president eats (relax dems its a joke).

I'm 44 and i'm sick of people telling me where and what I can and cant smoke, vape, or eat. I didn't quit smoking, I found something better, its not harming anybody and I will vape where I want, I'm not rude about it, I wont blow vapor in peoples faces or be disrespectful to somebodies business or private property but I sure as hell wont hide.

 

[holy_handgrenade]

Thank you jman8 for swinging us back on topic.

I can answer the flavored cigarette thing though because it affected me and I looked into it. Essentially, when Obama went into office, there was political pressure from the always vocal ANTZ that more should be done to remove cigarettes from the public mind and more should be done to help existing smokers kick the habit - so, what happened was that all regulatory authority was switched from the good ol' Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF or commonly ATF) over to the FDA. Since it was moved over, the tobacco regulation was figured from a Tobacco Harm Reduction standpoint. Unfortunately they use the flawed logic that flavors were only there to entice children, so they banned the flavors. I'm not sure how cigars and pipes escaped the regs other than that they are a very small and largely dying sector of the tobacco market. Because of that escape, cigars can remain flavored. So companies like Djarum switched to filtered cigars - which is a different blend, cut, and cure of tobacco than a normal cigarette.

That being said; I still dont follow the logic about not wanting to offend the public or the smokers. Smokers are one of the last bastions of hate mongers; it's socially acceptable to look down on, disabuse, and ridicule smokers. This is why bans go into place, because they're all up for public vote in most cases - publicly unacceptable behavior almost always gets the brunt of things. Great example is here in AZ, we have a statewide 80 cents per pack tax on cigarrettes to fund headstart programs. I see that as "you want funding for your pet project, lets go ahead and tax the hell out of something entirely unrelated but socially deviant behavior".

Smokers should see that vaping is more socially acceptable and that yes, we do indeed have more rights than smokers. It would encourage more analog smokers to switch to vaping. After smoking for 15 years, I'm sorry, but I cannot feel sorry for them or otherwise feel bad that my actions make them feel bad about the bad hand they've been dealt politically.

Again, I've said in a different post, the more we self impose tobacco regulations on ourselves, the more the public perceives vaping as just as bad as analogs - which wont help us when it comes time to question the logic or sanity about federal/state/local regulations surrounding vaping.

For that matter, I would say that if you are so rude as to exhale at all in someones face; vaping or just breathing hard, you would be rude to begin with and this is more about showing respect to those around you and acknowledging that maybe the art museum isnt the place to vape. One of my friends works in retail and is ecstatic that headquarters just allowed an in-store ban on vaping. Why? She sees the vapers in the store not caring where they are or who they are around and tend to either exhale vapor clouds into customers or employees faces. That behavior needs to be curbed in general, regardless of the resulting blanket "no public vaping" regulations that will follow because of these bad seeds.

That being said, yes, there are places that I think we should be able to go back to vaping in; such as bars, coffee shops, restraunts, etc. Yes the smoking bans removed smoking from those establishments, not for the smell, but for the scientifically proven pollution that smoking brought with it. Does that mean we should all go sub-ohm super dragon cloud vaping in these places? No. But with the data that we do have, and we seem to have a lot of it, second hand vaping is not a thing, leaving the reason for the smoking ban to not exist with vaping. On that same note, I dont think that we should be vaping at movie theatres, not for smell, but because the vape is more pronunced and visibly affecting your enjoyment of the film you paid to see. Likewise, if you really need to vape while you're in line at the bank, or the fast food counter, or other places where people would be in extreme close proximity, you may need to check your patience and learn that your actions can and do affect others and lines/queues have never been really acceptable places to smoke - most especially indoors due to lack of ashtrays and such.

Basically saying, we should look for more rational regulations than simply looking at tobacco as a template that fits neatly for vaping.

 

[holy_handgrenade]

And how do you intend to do that? (speak up). And why would you think a few people "speaking up" will make a difference?

This is probably one of the easiest questions to answer. Join the lobbying group CASAA for one. Be active in your local government (city council meetings, town halls, etc). Write, call, email, tweet your state legislators, congressman, and senators.

If you want statistics; a single call to your congressman tends to hold the weight of 1200 voices. If you call them, they hear your concerns. If others in your area also call in with the same concerns, it starts steering how they will vote when it comes time to do so. Calling them is the best possible exercise, it means the most to them and they can put more weight to your conversation. Writing them (snail mail, dead trees and such) is the next best thing - again it shows them that you are serious and passionate about this issue. Email, it's taking time, especially with the conservatives in office, but does affect their vote - even though they give emails and tweets very low weight because the relative ease it is to fire of a 140 character tweet or even a lengthy email.

So, in addition to being active, you can encourage others to be active. Raise awareness with those around you, encourage them to get active as well.

At least in the US, regardless of how disabused it seem the system is, we still are a representative government. The guys you vote for and send to Washington are your voice; they're essentially hired to represent you. This doesnt mean your opinion or concern will get addressed the way you want, but it does most definitely mean that if you are a member of that vocal minority that is getting and keeping the attention of the representative, it will most definitely mean they will vote the way you (as a group) want.

 

[jpargana]

Why is Menthol an acceptable flavor and not vanilla? I like to joke that it was the flavor the President smoked at the time. When the ban went into effect my wifes cloves were outlawed. Djarum changed the formula and calls them cigars now so they still have a product. You can still have flavored cigars and pipe weed but not cigs they taste bad compared to the older and better formula. She has tried at least 6 different juice flavors and none of them come close nor do I think it will ever be possible to make one, Cloves are coated with sweeteners and burn differently than cigs its been hard for here to switch over completely.

The American tobacco companies went along with the ban because most of the flavored cigs did not come from them, they were imports, now they are off the market.

This.

That was another typical, ANTZ-like BS. And as usual, most dumb zealots applauded the ban, without thinking about the hidden secrets behind it!

If the real concern was, in fact, 'protecting youth', then menthol flavour would have been the first to go. According to Dr Siegel, menthol is used by more than half of young smokers: it enhances smoking initiation by masking the harshness of tobacco. In fact, they did not only remove menthol from the ban, they also had the nerve of creating 'menthol crunch' cigarettes! That is, putting optional menthol in brands that did not used to have menthol in them! Which means: now, any brand will suit a younger smoker, because he can mask the harshness of tobacco in every one of them! Yaaaaay !!!

So, in an Houdini-like move, the government managed to keep the non-thinking, half-brained zealots happy, by pretending to be doing something to protect the youth, while actually protecting BT revenues by banning essentially imported flavours, and allowing expansion of domestic, good-selling flavours...! By protecting BT revenue, tax income is also protected, of course...

I do however disagree that tobacco companies were marketing to children, they were marketing to 18-25 year olds who are adults and have every right to choose vanilla if they want. Whats next? You will only be allowed to purchase plain potato chips because the flavors are attracting children and making them fat, oh except government sanctioned Ranch flavor because that is what the president eats (relax dems its a joke).

I have to disagree with you there. You see, tobacco initiation takes place waaay before 18 years old (Many of us can attest to that). By keeping menthol on the market, against all logic, the message is clear: this sells, and we couldn't care less about youth. Money is the end-game here. The government cannot really let tobacco companies actively market to children... but surelly they didn't care if children were the best buyers of a flavour they decided not to ban!

I'm 44 and i'm sick of people telling me where and what I can and cant smoke, vape, or eat. I didn't quit smoking, I found something better, its not harming anybody and I will vape where I want, I'm not rude about it, I wont blow vapor in peoples faces or be disrespectful to somebodies business or private property but I sure as hell wont hide.

Well, 43 here !!

This is what really makes me mad: I started smoking when I was a reckless, 15-year old. My government did NOT protect me from my young foolishness, back then. Sales restrictions, in Portugal, 20 years ago?? What a joke... only on paper... Seriously: I managed to buy a pack even before, when I was just eleven!! Just told the guy 'it's for my uncle who is visiting..."
The laws were already there, only the government did not exactly enforce them. (Today, I can understand EXACTLY why... )

I started vaping when I was a responsible, 38-year old grown-up. My decision to make the switch was an informed one. And now, five years later, the dirty bureaucrats in the EU want to allegedly protect me by banning the e-cig, because it might be harmful ??

There's no 'might be' in tobacco !! And tobacco will be freely available...

 

[decoy]

I'm not sure I fully understand why tobacco companies are disallowed from making flavored cigarettes and cigars. The way I understand it is based on idea that those flavors are to entice children into a habit that will likely be with them for life.

First thing popped into my mind was those scented (and flavored?) blunts.

 

[wv2win]

This is probably one of the easiest questions to answer. Join the lobbying group CASAA for one. Be active in your local government (city council meetings, town halls, etc). Write, call, email, tweet your state legislators, congressman, and senators...............................

Are you a member of CASAA?? And you really think the majority of vapers attend local government meetings and/or call or write their representatives??? What percentage of ECF members do you think are CASAA members?

 

[Jay-dub]

I really don't see vaping as being different from any other technology. Some people will be disrespectful or obnoxious with it but that doesn't mean there should be any across the board rules that effect everybody due to the behavior of a few socially inept people. Anyway, next time somebody is holding up a line because they're too busy talking on the phone about how fat so and so has gotten, I'm putting a cloud on them.

 

[Renkrik]

This is what really makes me mad: I started smoking when I was a reckless, 15-year old. My government did NOT protect me from my young foolishness, back then. Sales restrictions, in Portugal, 20 years ago?? What a joke... only on paper... Seriously: I managed to buy a pack even before, when I was just eleven!! Just told the guy 'it's for my uncle who is visiting..."

I think this is the only place I disagree, I don't believe it is the governments responsibility to "protect me" I will make my own decision on my health and if I want to do something that is bad for me I will. "Smoking is bad for you" Something completely obvious to me even at age 15 in the early 80s. (age 16 was the cutoff at that time in my old state, my highschool even had ".... cans" outside) If I want to kill myself slowly I will and nobody should have any say in it, especially when they are doing no different by poisoning the air in a much more hazardous way with their combustion vehicles.

Parents who get upset when you smoke within 50 feet of their children should not let them anywhere near a car. Put somebody in an enclosed room with 100 smokers for an hour and they will walk out with watery eyes, sore throat, and a minimal (less than .000001%) chance they will get lung cancer. Put the same person in an enclosed room with a running car and they will be dead in 10 minutes.

If Vaping turns out to be pure poison I still would not quit, I like it, it feels good to me and its my choice not my governments. IMO we must fight ALL regulation of this great new hobby, if we give them an inch they will take a mile and keep on taking until its gone.
We middle aged guys need to protect ourselves from all these dam kids

 

[holy_handgrenade]

Are you a member of CASAA?? And you really think the majority of vapers attend local government meetings and/or call or write their representatives??? What percentage of ECF members do you think are CASAA members?

Not entirely sure why this is a relevant line of questioning; you asked how to speak up or be heard - this is *exactly* how to do that. I do participate as much as work allows me to - that goes for city council meetings, contacting and staying informed of my state legislature, and writing or calling my congressman on issues I feel passionate about - and yes vaping is one, and yes, I've signed up at CASAA.org back in May - so it's been quite a while.

 

[Amraann]

Since when is BT not permitted to make flavored cigs? There are flavored cigars all over the place?

I am confused.

 

[Renkrik]

Since when is BT not permitted to make flavored cigs? There are flavored cigars all over the place?

I am confused.

Its been illegal to have any flavored cigs other than menthol for a little more than 4 years now.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Since when is BT not permitted to make flavored cigs? There are flavored cigars all over the place?

I am confused.

Sept 2009, IMO one of the more concerning aspects related to vaping.

 

[bluecat]

Since when is BT not permitted to make flavored cigs? There are flavored cigars all over the place?

I am confused.

Enter the FDA.... (Federal Dumb As...)

General Questions and Answers on the Ban of Cigarettes that Contain Certain Characterizing Flavors (Edition 2)

 

[Robino1]

Since when is BT not permitted to make flavored cigs? There are flavored cigars all over the place?

I am confused.

You do realize that cigar smoking is still socially acceptable with the good old boys clubs.... And they are the ones making the laws/rules......

 

[therealmuffinman]

Well this is just my view on the matter.

I was a smoker and started vaping because i enjoyed the action of smoking and vaping allowed me to do so while indoors for a length of time. Over time i found myself smoking less and less and decided to just give up the analogs because why not.

Now how that ties in with the topic brought up by OP is that in my opinion, vaping (although chemically different and less offensive than) is still an act of smoking. Visually, you inhale and exhale a cloud of "smoke". Vapor also has an odor (although much more pleasant in my opinion). Although as a vaper myself i would rather there not be any regulations, apart from the regulation of nicotine containing liquids to minors, I can understand regulations resembling those of cigarettes/cigars/pipes.

Apart from vaping in my household or those of friends, i tend to follow the same etiquette that i did when smoking. Like i try not to vape in front of children because it resembles smoking. I don't vape in enclosed public areas because it does have an odor, and the fact that people could have pg allergies compounds that matter.

Like I said, as a vaper, i would prefer not to be regulated, but I can understand regulations similar to those of traditional smoking.

 

[Jman8]

Like I said, as a vaper, i would prefer not to be regulated, but I can understand regulations similar to those of traditional smoking.

Unlike...

And why OP rhetoric makes perfect sense to me, in calling out other vapers

 

[klynnn]

I can understand regulations if there is a reason, but until one is proven as hazardous I think we should stick to food and beverage hygenics.

 

[holy_handgrenade]

Like I said, as a vaper, i would prefer not to be regulated, but I can understand regulations similar to those of traditional smoking.

This is exactly the kind of mindset that will have us regulated all to hell and back like tobacco. Tobacco bans/regulations had *zero* to do with smell, disgust, or other personal preference issues - the Gov has repeatedly stayed out of that and left it to property owner/business to decide. The bans moved forward only with irrefutable, scientific proof that the smoke actually posed a significant public health hazard.

Thus, in my mind, and as should be accepted by the vaping community and as we stack more and more scientific data proving that the hazards that were cited for the cause of smoking bans are non-existent, thus should not exist for vaping.

Again, equating vaping to smoking really is conceding to the public perception that vaping is "just as bad". I have severe allergies to perfumes, and there's nothing done about those. This kinda falls in the same realm.