Dear ECA and Njoy

[kristin]

Dear ECA and njoy,

I wanted to write to comend your recent move to eliminate non-tobacco flavored e-liquids. I feel this move will improve the general public's perception of electronic cigarettes and remove the argument that electronic cigarettes are targeting children through candy and fruit flavors. While I never believed this to be the case and I believe that the majority of teens have no interest in electronic cigarettes, the myth that they are in danger is now widespread and hard to dispell. This move will stop this argument against electronic cigarettes and help keep them available to actual electronic cigarette owners.

However, the non-tobacco flavors are arguably the greatest single influence that assists many, if not most, of your customers to continue using electronic cigarettes and to resist returning to the more dangerous tobacco cigarettes. Many consumers simply cannot tolerate the tobacco and menthol flavors and would discontinue using electronic cigarettes, without a palatable alternative.

On that premise, I strongly urge you and your vendor members to include a completely unflavored e-liquid option in your product lines. An unflavored liquid will not appeal to children, yet will offer an alternative option to the many, many customers who do not like the tobacco and menthol flavors.

Sincerely,
Kristin Noll-Marsh

 

[ECGuy]

But won't our enemies just argue "see, they have unflavored so people can make their own".

I totally agree with you. It should be an option, but stopping flavors, selling unflavored or only providing nasty tobacco flavored, IMHO is not going to really help at all in the fight.

I am proud however that the release announcing Njoy caved under pressure pointed out the fact the opposition has no proof it's true and cigs are available to our youth just about everywhere. That is always a good thing to point out.

Their argument has been "available in flavors and on the internet" so when do we take them off the net? IF we don't they still have that argument. They will always have an argument and retreating in the face of them all in the hopes to survive to fight another day, while a good tactic, might just mean we are forced to eventually retreat into the sea.

You have to make a stand eventually, we just need to figure out where our stand is.

 

[kristin]

The only thing that "we" can do is educate the public about e-cigs and the reduxced harm mentality.

The biggest battle, unfortunately, is left to the manufacturers. They have to get their products properly tested and approved or no one is going listen to anything else we have to say.

 

[ECGuy]

The only thing that "we" can do is educate the public about e-cigs and the reduxced harm mentality.

Have to agree totally. But at least its something. Testing won't be done till it has to be. At the moment even trying to test or filing an application would be a bad move for any manufacturer to do. So, in the mean time it's time to get busy changing public perception and hope for the best with Judge Leon.

 

[umop apisdn]

I'm sorry, but this is where I stop seeing the ECA as an organization that's out there to help us. First off, once we get the idiots out of the malls, kids won't be able to get these without explicit parental consent. It's impossible to get a checking account (debit card) without being 18 or older, without that, they can't buy these online. Well, unless they have a paypal account and a vendor's using that, but that's out of the way for most teens who would rather buy a pack from a bodega.

Banning flavors would send me back to analogs. Simple as that.

 

[eplanet]

The ECA is not banning flavors, That was a decision made by njoy...We plan on carrying flavors until we simply can not by law.

 

[Silence]

in the event of a flavor ban tho, I would be HIGHLY greatful for a light or unflavored version... Thank you for this letter. It is well written and I appreciate the effort.

 

[P3rplexity]

I strongly disagree, they aren't all over the Alcohol industry for flavoring beers and liquors, yet the e-cig business is catching all kinds of crap for flavoring our juice, why is this? Money of course... I think it is unfair and flat out ridiculous that anybody would actually think this is a good idea, especially a fellow vaper. I won't go as far as to bash Njoy for their decision to stop producing flavored juice, it is their business and they can do with it, but I foresee their sales dropping drastically as a result of their bold decision.

 

[radiokaos]

The ECA is not banning flavors, That was a decision made by njoy...We plan on carrying flavors until we simply can not by law.

Is the ECA taking any action against sales in the Mall, or that just Enjoy as well?

 

[Sun Vaporer]

I strongly disagree, they aren't all over the Alcohol industry for flavoring beers and liquors, yet the e-cig business is catching all kinds of crap for flavoring our juice, why is this? Money of course... I think it is unfair and flat out ridiculous that anybody would actually think this is a good idea, especially a fellow vaper. I won't go as far as to bash Njoy for their decision to stop producing flavored juice, it is their business and they can do with it, but I foresee their sales dropping drastically as a result of their bold decision.

Not so much NJOY's business as it is complying with the law. NJOY has plead to the Court that they are a tobacco product and hence must comply to laws of tobacco products which include right now no flavorings.

So it is not a question of being fair, rather a question of following the laws that are currently in place. NJOY can not on the one hand plead to a Court of competent jurisdiction that they are a tobacco product and on the other hand ignore the laws already enacted for tobacco products. Anything less would constitute inconsistat pleadings and would give rise the demise of NJOY.


Sun

 

[ladysolitary85]

I wonder where Smoking Everywhere stand in this. I hope they're at least willing to stand and fight back.

 

[eplanet]

Is the ECA taking any action against sales in the Mall, or that just Enjoy as well?

Action? No action has been taken...

 

[yvilla]

Sun, it is not technically correct that Njoy would be required to take this action. I agree that Njoy is taking this action to try to better its position, but it is not actually required by law, even if the ecig is deemed to be a "tobacco product".

For the statutory ban on characterizing flavors is actually limited to "cigarettes", as specifically defined in law, and loose tobacco intended to be used in cigarettes; it does not extend to all "tobacco proucts".

Here is what the FDA says about this in its guidance document about the characterizing flavors ban:

2. What products are covered?
Several key definitions in the law define which products are covered.
The ban applies to all tobacco products that meet the definition of a cigarette in section 900(3) of the FDCA even if they are not labeled as cigarettes or are labeled as cigars or as some other product.
Specifically, section 900(3) defines cigarettes as:
‘‘(3) CIGARETTE.—The term ‘cigarette’—
‘‘(A) means a product that—
‘‘(i) is a tobacco product; and
‘‘(ii) meets the definition of the term ‘cigarette’ in section 3(1) of the Federal Cigarette Labeling and Advertising Act; and
‘‘(B) includes tobacco, in any form, that is functional in the product, which, because of its appearance, the type of tobacco used in the filler, or its packaging and labeling, is likely to be offered to, or purchased by, consumers as a cigarette or as roll-your-own tobacco.
‘‘(4) CIGARETTE TOBACCO.—The term ‘cigarette tobacco’ means any product that consists of loose tobacco that is intended for use by consumers in a cigarette. Unless otherwise stated, the requirements applicable to cigarettes under this chapter shall also apply to cigarette tobacco.”
This definition refers to a provision of the Federal Cigarette Labeling and Advertising Act which defines the term ‘cigarette’ as:
“(1) The term “cigarette” means—
(A) any roll of tobacco wrapped in paper or in any substance not containing tobacco, and
(B) any roll of tobacco wrapped in any substance containing tobacco which, because of its appearance, the type of tobacco used in the filler, or its packaging and labeling, is likely to be offered to, or purchased by, consumers as a cigarette described in subparagraph (A).”

General Questions and Answers on the Ban of Cigarettes that Contain Certain Characterizing Flavors

The FDA goes on to say, for example, that the flavor ban does not apply to pipe tobacco.

Ecigs, although their liquid might be ruled a "tobacco product" due to being derived from tobacco, do not meet the definition of "cigarettes" as seen above, so they would not automatically fall under the characterizing flavor ban (at least as currently written).

 

[Sun Vaporer]

After 30 years of avoided inconsistant pleadings in Federal Courts, I know that what I wrote is correct and I will leave it at that. That is my opinion on it. Take it for what it is worth.


Sun

 

[Drozd]

Not so much NJOY's business as it is complying with the law. NJOY has plead to the Court that they are a tobacco product and hence must comply to laws of tobacco products which include right now no flavorings.

So it is not a question of being fair, rather a question of following the laws that are currently in place. NJOY can not on the one hand plead to a Court of competent jurisdiction that they are a tobacco product and on the other hand ignore the laws already enacted for tobacco products. Anything less would constitute inconsistat pleadings and would give rise the demise of NJOY.


Sun

Sun,
While I understand what you're saying, what I don't understand is that to my understanding Judge Leon had already made his decision and just had not made it official or had it docketed. This move by Njoy to eliminate flavors was made after the judge supposedly had his ruling, and that it wouldn't effect or change his ruling. So, it seems to me that Njoy is playing catch up and CYA...instad of doing this WHILE they were making the argument that they were tobacco products..but to do this after he made a ruling but before it was docketed really seems to be a pointless concession. a day late and dollar short.

 

[TokenVapor]

Not so much NJOY's business as it is complying with the law. NJOY has plead to the Court that they are a tobacco product and hence must comply to laws of tobacco products which include right now no flavorings.

So it is not a question of being fair, rather a question of following the laws that are currently in place. NJOY can not on the one hand plead to a Court of competent jurisdiction that they are a tobacco product and on the other hand ignore the laws already enacted for tobacco products. Anything less would constitute inconsistat pleadings and would give rise the demise of NJOY.

Sun

Exactly my thoughts, Thanks Sun!!

I'm quoting this to drive the point home to those who are clinging to the availability of pre-mixed flavored juices. If you want to be considered a tobacco product you have to abide by the laws concerning that product.

Thanks Kristin for the idea that an un-flavored juice should be available. The powers that be cannot claim that un-flavored is a flavor. Genius!!

 

[TokenVapor]

Sun,
While I understand what you're saying, what I don't understand is that to my understanding Judge Leon had already made his decision and just had not made it official or had it docketed. This move by Njoy to eliminate flavors was made after the judge supposedly had his ruling, and that it wouldn't effect or change his ruling. So, it seems to me that Njoy is playing catch up and CYA...instad of doing this WHILE they were making the argument that they were tobacco products..but to do this after he made a ruling but before it was docketed really seems to be a pointless concession. a day late and dollar short.

I doubt that neither Njoy nor the ECA would be making these concessions lightly and at this stage if there was not some backdoor negotiations going on.

 

[Mustang394]

Really? If you can't buy non-tobacco flavors you would go back to tobacco flavored cigs? That just doesn't make sense to me. Anyways?

We are fighting a battle of public opinion. And unfortnately we are vastly out numbered an always will be.

I would rather see flavors go away than having vaping as a whole being banned.

 

[Mustang394]

The biggest battle, unfortunately, is left to the manufacturers. They have to get their products properly tested and approved or no one is going listen to anything else we have to say.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this. You will not change public opinion with out real testing.

 

[OutWest]

The ECA is not banning flavors, That was a decision made by njoy...We plan on carrying flavors until we simply can not by law.

According to this article 'Electronic' cigarettes spark several concerns | floridatoday.com | FLORIDA TODAY the newly revised bylaws prohibit an ECA member from selling "candy-like" flavors.

The article goes on to say that the ECA does not support the selling of ecigs at kiosks or malls. (from the sounds of it, not even at a tobacco shop in a mall)