Diacetyl/AP Thread

[Sirius]

I ask myself a question the other day..What would be a safe level of Diacetyl/AP in eliquid's to vape?!?

So I followed a few links,..and bear with me because I'm as confused as you must be:

CDC - Flavorings-Related Lung Disease: Exposures to Flavoring Chemicals - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic

Safety and Health Information Bulletins | Occupational Exposure to Flavoring Substances: Health Effects and Hazard Control

Diacetyl Standard Becomes Official - Cal-OSHA (pdf file)

Two companies (FA and TFA) have shown that in quantities with less than 0.5%, 1000s of ppbs have been found,... but NIOSH recommends the exposure limit (REL) for vapor inhalation up to 8-31 ppb.

Dr. Farsalinos found that diacetyl was in 74% of the e-liquids that were tested...Some of you may remember this study..I do,..but it blew right by me at the time:
:

Okay are you confused yet?!?

Now I'll put the question to you..How much Diacetyl/AP is safe to vape?!?

IMO none,..and will add what Dimitris said on his podcast the other night. Diacetyl and AP damage the cells of the lungs..Why have no vapers been diagnosed for Popcorn Lung then?!?

Vaping is only 6 years old and smokers that have died from smoking are not even diagnosed as having done so..It's always COPD or heart attacks,..ect. These folks have a much longer history smoking than anybody I know so far that is vaping.

Your thoughts please.

 

[Oliver]

You'll have mine very soon - I've just blogged on it and am uploading

 

[Spanky Payne]

Popcorn lung can take quite a while to cause any effects, I work at a popcorn plant, the very one that was sued back in the mid 2000's and some of those people had worked there for 7-15 years breathing in Diacetyl fumes before everyone started to get sick. The company now says they do not have Diacetyl flavoring any more (which I don't know how true that is) and takes extra precautions such as wearing respirators and such. There's a lady on my shift that by doctors orders has to wear a mask at work because she finally got sick 6-7 months ago, when she's worked there for almost 20 years! My opinion is no Diketones at all, I've seen the effects and it ruins your life, vaping is supposed to be positive, everyone making a change for a longer life and breathing better, not early graves and lung transplants.

 

[BennyAdeline]

Here's my personal take. In no way am I advocating what anyone else should do or think...but for me:

Diacetyl I avoid because it's easy to avoid by choosing the right companies. AP is in a lot of juice and I'm not super scared of it because the levels are small.

I don't lose sleep over what's in my juice because they are safer than cigs and it's all about harm reduction.

 

[Racehorse]

I ask myself a question the other day..What would be a safe level of Diacetyl/AP in eliquid's to vape?!?
Your thoughts please.

There are already so many post about this, going back to when the forum began, and more than enough information in the topic when Dr. Farsalino's first tested ejuices over a year ago.

Pretty much all the answers I needed were in that topic, which is here, if you care to read it:
Donate to Dr Farsalinos' new study | E-Cigarette Forum

Dr. F's pertinent comments start on Page 8.

 

[Sirius]

There are already so many post about this, going back to when the forum began, and more than enough information in the topic when Dr. Farsalino's first tested ejuices over a year ago.

Pretty much all the answers I needed were in that topic, which is here, if you care to read it:
Donate to Dr Farsalinos' new study | E-Cigarette Forum

Dr. F's pertinent comments start on Page 8.

Thanks for posting.. New information comes out on the subject to keep us updated... But I thank you for pointing that out.[emoji106]

Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk

 

[Sirius]

Sorry my phone did that..lol

 

[Sirius]

Here's my personal take. In no way am I advocating what anyone else should do or think...but for me:

Diacetyl I avoid because it's easy to avoid by choosing the right companies. AP is in a lot of juice and I'm not super scared of it because the levels are small.

I don't lose sleep over what's in my juice because they are safer than cigs and it's all about harm reduction.

Evidence shows that AP does the same damage to the lungs as Diacetyl does..Each molecule when entering the lungs damage lung tissue. As the lungs repair that damage it builds up tissues resulting in closing off airways..It might take 15 or 20 years to do so,..but nobody is going to spend $100k on an autopsy for constricted bronchiolitis on the cadaver of a vaper..They don't do it for smokers..They just say that the cause of death is COPD or a heart attack.

 

[Sirius]

You'll have mine very soon - I've just blogged on it and am uploading

Good @SmokeyJoe .. should be a good read.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

No matter how you slice or dice it you can't get around one fact.
The FDA, FEMA, OSHA state current standards of occupational exposure levels are not relevant to e cig use and that it is improper to use, assume or calculate safe levels for e cig use based on occupational standards.
Period. as in not being considered relevant to the subject.

It isn't hard to understand why, occupational exposure does not define a person that purposefully inhales the by-products that result from heating a solution containing various chemical combinations into an aerosol.

Until someone an agency or group accepts financial & legal liability I doubt they're going to change their stance.

 

[skoony]

the problem as i see it is all the research i have done
about popcorn lung so far always relates back to popcorn manufacturing,
a handful of cases in the actual manufacturing of the
flavors and 2 most recently in a coffee roasting plant
in Texas. this in a very large industry of food processing.
over the last few years a lot of company's have stopped
the use of AP and DP in their products even though
they were not making microwave popcorn or flavorings.
even so where are all the workers from all the other industries?
there should be some i would think. with the verdicts from
some of the court cases in and considering the amount of
awards the jury's have handed out we should be seeing
popcorn lung across a wider spectrum of different products
in the industry. but alas we are not. what does that mean?
heck i haven't a clue. it does lead me to believe that perhaps
as NIOSH has said other factors may be involved with other
processes or the popcorn itself. it easy to see how some
one making the actual flavoring would be exposed to a
lot of AP or DP. on the other hand there were more
workers in the microwave popcorn industry that were
affected by popcorn lung.
now we have to look at the testing for concentrations
of AP and DP. NIOSH and OSHA tested for concentrations
in the air at the said affected factory's. the good Dr. F
dissolved e-juice known to contain AP and DP in
propylene glycol and glycerol. to very different test
mediums but,still showing the concentrations of
AP and DP. does AP and DP suspended in air have
the same affect when suspended in a viscous liquid?
if so at what concentrations? can it get far enough into
the lungs where the damage occurs?
my research indicates it shouldn't if its still suspended
in e-juice.some i am sure will still penetrate deep enough
just for the sake of argument. will AP and DP be as toxic
when suspended in a viscous liquid as it is when suspended
in air?
concerning popcorn lung itself all the cases added up together
are statistically meaningless when compared to the total amount
of industry workers who used these compounds in various forms
through out the workforce. i am not disparaging the workers who
have become ill. all i am asking is for a little perspective.
we know some industry workers were affected. we know the
circumstances of how and where they were affected.
the $64.00 question is are we in the same circumstances
as those workers and how would it affect us?

regards
mike

 

[herb]

Evidence shows that AP does the same damage to the lungs as Diacetyl does..Each molecule when entering the lungs damage lung tissue. As the lings repair that damage it builds up tissues resulting in closing off airways..It might take 15 or 20 years to do so,..but nobody is going to spend $100k on an autopsy for constricted bronchiolitis on the cadaver of a vaper..They don't do it for smokers..They just say that the cause of death is COPD or a heart attack.

Excellent post and thats enough for me to avoid both chemicals completely , it is possible to avoid both while vaping and thats what i prefer to do . You have a choice to vape them or not vape them , choose your e liquids wisely or DIY and know what your using .

People seem to think you have to take in some of these chemicals if you vape and thats not true , you can still vape and enjoy without dealing with either one but most still don't . Thats their right

 

[Sirius]

No matter how you slice or dice it you can't get around one fact.
The FDA, FEMA, OSHA state current standards of occupational exposure levels are not relevant to e cig use and that it is improper to use, assume or calculate safe levels for e cig use based on occupational standards.
Period. as in not being considered relevant to the subject.

It isn't hard to understand why, occupational exposure does not define a person that purposefully inhales the by-products that result from heating a solution containing various chemical combinations into an aerosol.

Until someone an agency or group accepts financial & legal liability I doubt they're going to change their stance.

the problem as i see it is all the research i have done
about popcorn lung so far always relates back to popcorn manufacturing,
a handful of cases in the actual manufacturing of the
flavors and 2 most recently in a coffee roasting plant
in Texas. this in a very large industry of food processing.
over the last few years a lot of company's have stopped
the use of AP and DP in their products even though
they were not making microwave popcorn or flavorings.
even so where are all the workers from all the other industries?
there should be some i would think. with the verdicts from
some of the court cases in and considering the amount of
awards the jury's have handed out we should be seeing
popcorn lung across a wider spectrum of different products
in the industry. but alas we are not. what does that mean?
heck i haven't a clue. it does lead me to believe that perhaps
as NIOSH has said other factors may be involved with other
processes or the popcorn itself. it easy to see how some
one making the actual flavoring would be exposed to a
lot of AP or DP. on the other hand there were more
workers in the microwave popcorn industry that were
affected by popcorn lung.
now we have to look at the testing for concentrations
of AP and DP. NIOSH and OSHA tested for concentrations
in the air at the said affected factory's. the good Dr. F
dissolved e-juice known to contain AP and DP in
propylene glycol and glycerol. to very different test
mediums but,still showing the concentrations of
AP and DP. does AP and DP suspended in air have
the same affect when suspended in a viscous liquid?
if so at what concentrations? can it get far enough into
the lungs where the damage occurs?
my research indicates it shouldn't if its still suspended
in e-juice.some i am sure will still penetrate deep enough
just for the sake of argument. will AP and DP be as toxic
when suspended in a viscous liquid as it is when suspended
in air?
concerning popcorn lung itself all the cases added up together
are statistically meaningless when compared to the total amount
of industry workers who used these compounds in various forms
through out the workforce. i am not disparaging the workers who
have become ill. all i am asking is for a little perspective.
we know some industry workers were affected. we know the
circumstances of how and where they were affected.
the $64.00 question is are we in the same circumstances
as those workers and how would it affect us?

regards
mike

This goes back to the OP..I do not know any vapers that have even vaped more than like 6 years. So to Mikes question, we just don't know yet if we are in the same boat as those food industry workers.

 

[Sirius]

Excellent post and thats enough for me to avoid both chemicals completely , it is possible to avoid both while vaping and thats what i prefer to do . You have a choice to vape them or not vape them , choose your e liquids wisely or DIY and know what your using .

People seem to think you have to take in some of these chemicals if you vape and thats not true , you can still vape and enjoy without dealing with either one but most still don't . Thats their right

Same here and tyvm.

 

[skoony]

Evidence shows that AP does the same damage to the lungs as Diacetyl does..Each molecule when entering the lungs damage lung tissue. As the lungs repair that damage it builds up tissues resulting in closing off airways..It might take 15 or 20 years to do so,..but nobody is going to spend $100k on an autopsy for constricted bronchiolitis on the cadaver of a vaper..They don't do it for smokers..They just say that the cause of death is COPD or a heart attack.

how did they know that the workers who got popcorn lung
had popcorn lung and it was so different from COPD as
to be a different disease?
regards
mike

 

[Mazinny]

DA_PD_monograph.pdf - Google Drive

 

[Sirius]

how did they know that the workers who got popcorn lung
had popcorn lung and it was so different from COPD as
to be a different disease?
regards
mike

I forget the exact term but something like a deep tissue biopsy.

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[Sirius]

DA_PD_monograph.pdf - Google Drive

Thanks Maz!

 

[skoony]

I forget the exact term but something like a deep tissue biopsy.

Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk

oh,good.
no use waiting till their dead.
regards
mikw

 

[Jman8]

My thought is this is an inflated concern for vaping community.

For me, it is not different than saying nicotine is highly addictive or that formaldehyde is possible to get thru vaping.

If it is as bad as some are claiming, then I don't think we can claim, as a collective to fully know the effects of vaping, what's in eLiquid, and/or that it is for sure better than smoking. We can try to claim that, but our many threads on this show a different side and are closer to "we really don't know!"

The alternative may be a wonderful thing and better all the way around. Then again, without long term studies on that, how would we know? I think it quite possible that whatever the substitute is, that 1 to 10 years from now, some researcher will find that it "could lead to" some sort of malady, and then what? Where do we go from there? Keep trying different substitutes for the illusion of safety and to keep up the meme of "well it's safer than smoking."

I also think it is entirely plausible that BT, FDA and/or BP are driving this discussion and sitting back right about now pleased with how little effort they had to extend to get vaping community into a tizzy. To me, it wouldn't need to be any sort of conspiracy at work, just float out information, like the formaldehyde scare, and either it sticks or it doesn't. But if it sticks a little bit (like formaldehyde scare did), then it is one more knock against vaping. If it sticks a lot (like diacetyl scare has), then suddenly a whole lot of things vapers were claiming may not be true / accurate. It is possibly worse than smoking, and right now no one in the vaping community can, with 100% conviction, say otherwise.

A person outside of vaping community, when they hear the words "avoidable risk" are going to assume vapers are avoiding the risks that come with vaping. Instead we have our own spin on what that must mean, and yet, the alternative(s) are possibly medium to long term avoidable risks just waiting their turn in line.