Inhaling Flavouring Chemicals

[Happy Jack]

Ruyan don't sell eliquid Cheryl, just cartridges and only in two flavours - tobacco and menthol. People sometimes get mixed up because Heaven Gifts call themselves RuyanDirect and imply they only sell Ruyan products. The DSE801 is not a Ruyan product either. Another thing that gets people mixed up is the eliquid called RY4, the RY might (I don't know) mean ruyan but it's not made by Ruyan.

I read in another thread that Ruyan actually means "like smoke" in Chinese. So, the flavours RY1-RY4 are all supposed to be "like smoke". Good name for an e-cig manufacturer, too. Not necessarily RY4 liquids created by Ruyan.

 

[Klimpt]

Could I ask who makes these carts...are they Ruyan?

 

[Kate]

Kitabz has checked with Johnson Creek about diacetyl and they said

"... we do not use diacetyl in our juices."
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-may-not-reply-some-e-mails-2.html#post203435

 

[Bitteryouth79]

Why Kate! You're home! And welcome back. Of course it's good to see you on here again. Like many, you were among the first that I encountered always helpful to point out information of important concern to newbees and always mindful of issues that the uninformed need to be concerned about.

While you were on vacation I just wanted to point out that it was determined that Glycerin USP is NOT NECESSARILY safe as you may have pointed out in some older posts... It seems that there is in fact a difference between Glycerin USP (apparently Pharmaceutical Grade) and Food Grade Glycerin USP. It gets pretty complicated. There is glycerin from animal sources and glycerin from vegetable sources and an account of synthetic glycerin which may be crude derived from biodeisel production that is technical grade. There is glycerin that is Kosher (requires a letter from RABBI-BU and kosher transportation certificate). There is glycerin that is 100% pure and glycerine that is 99.9% and 99.7% and 99.5% (considered technical grade) and less pure forms. According to the best we know at this time, glycerin USP which may or may not contain a label warning for external use is often found in the phamacy section in many local shopping markets. A source says if the label says for external use only it should not be used for these purposes. Not everyone has had problems with glycerin USP but there have been reports of people who have suffered extreme nausea from it even if the label does not state for external use. It appears that manufacturers may variously formulate these products from vegetable or synthetic sources (which may be a misnomer because synthetic implies technical grade and would not qualify as USP) but to the extent this explanation makes sense it seems to account for the issues many have had of using glycerin USP and suffering from undesirable symptoms including severe nausea. We can no longer say that if it says USP it is safe for us to use. The distinction, although quite difficult to document is that only FOOD GRADE glycerine which may or may not say USP is safe to use. It is likely that FOOD GRADE glycerine may be manufactured from either vegetable or animal sources and most are advising that the best solution is to use only 100% Vegetable Glycerin which is certain to be FOOD GRADE, and such products, often found in Health Food Stores is usually tested to insure they are free of all contaminants. While I don't think we need to get our glycerin approved by a Rabbi, I do think it important to address any previous advice posted in the forms that might mislead people in this regard. Currently, we surmise that Glycerin found at brew shops, craft stores, and health food stores is implicitly FOOD GRADE and therefore safe. This is the only kind we should use or recommend. It should be discouraged to purchase or use glycerine that is found in the pharmacy section of any grocery store often labeled glycerin USP. It shouldn't be necessary to order it online to make sure we get the right stuff, only that we get it from the right place... this turns out to be a specialty store as described and other sources than I mentioned may also be suitable sources.

Personally, I think we can relax a little with regard to concerns about diacetyl. Diacetyl is an ARTIFICIAL flavoring agent and is ONLY used as BUTTER FLAVORING. It is harmless when consumed and not inhaled. It is never going to find its way into any product that is not explicitly labeled "buttery" flavored and intended for consumption, or formulated in bakery and pastry products that have no possible means of contributing to inhalation. In terms of flavor concentrates, the only conceivable variety I could envision it being used in is one that said "Buttery Flavor." Personally, I am not aware of any, and if it did exist it would likely be in a pure form because outside of commercial uses in prepared foods the only form in which buttery flavoring is ever sold is as pure buttery flavoring. Therefore, the only ones we should be on the lookout for are any that indicate butter or buttery in the name and investigate those. Diacetyl will never be found as a component in a pure extract that is any other flavor than "buttery."

The only way any consumers are likely to inhale diacetyl, or have ever been known to inhale it (in any significant quantity) is through the vapor produced by popping microwave popcorn or by using butter flavored cooking spray. There is only one single case in the whole wide world of a person who suffered lung damage as a result of it and who did not work in a manufacturing plant that made microwave popcorn. He was an individual who religiously ate three bags of microwave popcorn every single day for 10 years. Yes there are considerable concerns about it as one of the flavoring chemicals that might possibly be inhaled. The guy had to have his lungs replaced.

But instead of hopelessly hunting for diacetyl in every flavoring we try, I think we should be concerned about it and warn about this only in the context of any flavoring that indicated it was "buttery" and I don't think e-smokers are going to want to use any of it if they found some anyway. The only possible related flavors that come to mind we might encounter are butter rum and butterscotch and by an extension possibly caramel. I rather think however that if we investigate these we would 'likely' find that even these 'probably' don't contain diacetyl. I could be mistaken. This would be a great research project to undertake. Find out for me if any of the brands we're discussing that have flavors of butter rum, butterscotch or caramel may have diacetyl in them. If they do not I think we can even be less concerned.

Hi jbbishop,

I am a newb to e-smoking and many of these issues have crossed in and out of my mind. Concerning the Diacetyl ingredient, I used to work directly with the pure Raw Material making flavor for various food companies. This ingredient can be found in many different flavors besides butter flavors and caramel/butterscotch flavors. I have put Diacetyl in coffee, vanilla & almond flavors just to name a few. On any label when they list a Natural or Artificial flavor, the ingredients of that flavor will never be disclosed because most of the time they do not know exactly has been used to create the flavor that they are putting in their product. All the manufacturer knows is if it is Natural, Artificial or both.

BTW: Flavors labeled Natural & Artificial only need to contain >=1% natural ingredients to get this label claim!

 

[SleepHater]

Noob here, maybe I missed it but I did not here a mention of Intellicig ECOpure. I am using this juice just because of the many concerns voiced in this thread. From my searching it seemed to be the best/safest/least amount of uneeded grbage. I only regularly use the Fresh in low or high (although I have vaped the tobacco, got it for free). The fresh has no flavor added (igetcha did a review and indeed told them they should just call it unflavored. They also post a purity analysis from a unnamed UK university with some chemical analysis (NMR and LCMS) in a pdf. They also claim that all of their ingredients are purchased from the UK.

I have been very pleased with both vapor production and throat hit.

IMO this is the safest juice around. Made in the UK, few ingrediants, unflavored option etc.. Anyone found anything better?

I think the battle for the E-cig revolution will be won or lost based on the safety of the juice. Until it gets sorted out I won't touch a flavored liquid for regular use.

Thanks.

 

[LuckyCharm]

...Intellicig ECOpure. I am using this juice just because of the many concerns voiced in this thread... I only regularly use the Fresh in low or high (although I have vaped the tobacco, got it for free).

After reading your testimonial, I went straight to their website, registered, and started placing an order for the "Fresh" in medium (maybe will change to high next time, but trying to strike a middle ground here). But when I read their terms and conditions, it says they're not liable for losses due to customs refusal. Now, doesn't customs return packages to senders if they're refused? And in that case, shouldn't I get a refund?

I aborted my order pending clarification from them. And, if you'll swear that the "Fresh" does indeed deliver acceptable vapor & throat hit, I'll probably order more than two bottles when I do, because £7.00 shipping is a lot, and I'll want enough to last a while!

~~Cheryl

 

[jennydotz]

Lucky--There's a video review here somewhere for "fresh" Maybe Igetcha?

 

[Kate]

I wrote to Intellicig and asked them what the ingredients were in their eliquid and if they knew about diacetyl. They didn't answer.

I also can't make much sense of the report they've published, it seems to be for three substances or cartridges or something and doesn't have a toxicology report.

 

[rock]

I was think about using a Sea Sponge for the cartridge, what do you think? It's natural and would hold liquid better than Wool, paper or cotton.

 

[SleepHater]

After reading your testimonial, I went straight to their website, registered, and started placing an order for the "Fresh" in medium (maybe will change to high next time, but trying to strike a middle ground here). But when I read their terms and conditions, it says they're not liable for losses due to customs refusal. Now, doesn't customs return packages to senders if they're refused? And in that case, shouldn't I get a refund?

I aborted my order pending clarification from them. And, if you'll swear that the "Fresh" does indeed deliver acceptable vapor & throat hit, I'll probably order more than two bottles when I do, because £7.00 shipping is a lot, and I'll want enough to last a while!

~~Cheryl

Igetcha does have a review and comments on the quality of the vapor and throat hit... I agree with him totally (easy to do as he has tested more devices and fluids then I will ever attempt to). Vapor... Tons. Throat hit... very nice. The throat hit certainly increases with the nicotine level of teh juice, that said I vape the low most of the day, I find myself so enjoying my EVO w/ECO love fest that if I did not use the low I would be non-functional due to too much nic. I have the high (also in fresh) and endulge several times a day when I want that extra throat punch. There is an extra high as well that I have ordered but have not received.

Now I am into vaping for the vapor and the throat hit (and of course the nicotine replacement). I do not care about flavors. Does the rich tobacco taste better than the Fresh? Yeah, it does... the fresh doesn't really tast like anything... that'f fine with me, indeed that i exaxtly what I wanted. Personally I think there is a slight mild sweetness to it. However that flavor did not emerge for me until I was a few days out from using the flaovred juices.

On another note. I have not had any problems with shipping small orders (I just buy for myslef) My last shippment took exactly 7 days from the day I ordered, a saturday to the day I received it. 5 days from the time they shipped. John at intellicig is great and seems pretty good and getting your stuff to you. they use airshure from Royal Mail and my understanding is that for relatively low value orders <200-300$ or something like that then the customs paperwork from there side is relatively straight forward. I ahve three orders shipping out tommorow and if you want me to let you know how those go i would be glad to.

Hope that helps, long post but this was a really important issue for me even considering the e-cig as something worth persuing. Cheers.

 

[SleepHater]

I wrote to Intellicig and asked them what the ingredients were in their eliquid and if they knew about diacetyl. They didn't answer.

I also can't make much sense of the report they've published, it seems to be for three substances or cartridges or something and doesn't have a toxicology report.

Kate, They are including ingredients on the bottle. I have trnsferred to glass and don't have it in front of me but I can state what they have listed tomorrow.

Here is how I approached the report posted by intellicig. I have a BS in Biochem and Molecular Bio so I have spent some time in a lab... So I thought that I would look at the data they provide in a couple of ways.

1. The spectra they generated from a couple different methods of analysis. I thought:

- Is there equiptment capable of providing good results? Yes a 400 mHZ NMR is a serious piece of machinery as well as there mass spectrometer.

- With that is mind how did the data look, i.e how noisy was the spectra from the analysis? Looked good to me, I am not an expert but I have spent my fare share of time starring at this sort of thing wishing I wasn't.

- At the end of the day I'll take there results at face value, the purity of there ingredients is very high and verified by chemical analysis. I also appreciated that they did a analysis of the vapor produced by the e-cig to see if new and unexpected products were produced. Granted further analysis could certainly be done but it was more than I could find on any other fluid.

2. I looked up the Material Safety and Data sheet (MSDS) on the ingredients they tested (and are listed on the bottle).

- I use Sigma Aldrich's web site which allows you to search the chemical and proceed to bore yourself to death

- The MSDS will generally scare the crap out you for anything... If you look at the MSDS for Deionized water, they list a cleanup protocol that requires protective clothing. What do clean up this hazard with whilst donned in protective gear... water, yep. Anyway. The part I am most interested in is where they list the carcinogenic properties of the chemical... and as far as my research has taken me... I have not found one. Ethyl maltol was the one I was worried about:

IARC: No component of this product present at levels greater than or equal to 0.1% is identified as probable, possible or confirmed human carcinogen by IARC.

ACGIH: No component of this product present at levels greater than or equal to 0.1% is identified as a carcinogen or potential carcinogen by ACGIH.

NTP: No component of this product present at levels greater than or equal to 0.1% is identified as a known or anticipated carcinogen by NTP.
OSHA: No component of this product present at levels greater than or equal to 0.1% is identified as a carcinogen or potential carcinogen by OSHA.

I just want to vape the safest e-liquid currently available. I like the KISS approach and that is why I skip the flavoring. I f someone has found a cleaner fluid than this (that is not made in China... sorry but no thanks) please tell me and I will vape that.

Also from intellicig:

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Manufacture of the e-liquid is conducted in facilities holding ISO 9002 - BRITISH SAFETY COUNCIL MEMBERS - COMAH (second tier site) - DGSA - ISO 14000 (working towards)

which seems like they are making an effort to produce a safe, healthy product.

All in my very humble opinion. Everyone on this forum has been a great resource for me to learn about all this... hoping I am contributing something back.

Cheers.

[also there are a number of people doing experiements with the fluid... VG degrading to acroline etc... They seem to be the experts, I have to go back to my home town for a clinicla rotation and I still have access to the chemistry department at my former university, I think I will take a day and run the fluid through NMR (they have a 600mHZ, ftIR (including used vs, new attys) GCMS, LCMS etc. generate some data.. but that won't be till summer, pich my old professors brain, she is freaking genius, really Mensa's Mensa, see how she would approach it]
[/FONT]

 

[Kate]

Thanks SleepHater, that's an interesting interpretation.

 

[exogenesis]

SleepHater, well written & clear.

We would all very much appreciate any 'real instrument time' you could obtain.

I realise you can't promise anything, but it'd be fantastic to get some
truly objective analyses from actual users of these things.

Analysis of the generated vapour itself is the real question...at least in my mind,
which unfortunately adds a bit of a sample-preparation complication.

 

[SleepHater]

SleepHater, well written & clear.

We would all very much appreciate any 'real instrument time' you could obtain.

I realise you can't promise anything, but it'd be fantastic to get some
truly objective analyses from actual users of these things.

Analysis of the generated vapour itself is the real question...at least in my mind,
which unfortunately adds a bit of a sample-preparation complication.

I welcome any advice on how best to use instrumentation to get the highest yield data. I have been out of the lab (stuck in med school) for 2 years so I have promptly forgotten most of what I used to know. I had a couple of thoughts:

1. Take a new unused atomizer, factory direct so to speak and a well used (even expired) atomizer of the identical type and use ftIR to analyze the difference in the surface compounds. The instrument i would use uses a microscope focus and does solid surface analysis (Thermo Nicolet Nexus 670 FTIR E.S.P., w/Thermo Spectro-Tech Continumm IR Microscope: best of its kind in the north west last I heard) this could give us a spectra, with the new atty as the reference spectra. I used this machine a lot so I can get solid spectrum of the atty's for sure, might help answer some questions to whats built up. However, all i have is ECO w/ EVO. So another sample set would be required for other liquid/atty combinations.


2. Use a negative pressure container to draw and capture vapor: then see if I could get that into the Mass spectrometer and gas chromatograph (if someone is a pro at these let me know and I'll give you the model numbers, if that help, both were HP as best I remeber.

3. I was wondering if using an atomic absorption spectrometer would be useful. I forgotten what this was best for... I think metal purity analysis (?) but that would certainly combust the fluid... if someone knows... fill me in.

I won't be able to do anything until mid july, but any advice prior to that will be much appreciated. I'll only have one shot (a day at most in the instrument lab to do all this) and after that I won't be back there until next winter. So i would like to generate the most usable data possible to make it worth the groveling to my old prof. to let me use there 1,000,000+ instruments to satisfy my e-cig obsession .

 

[Sun Vaporer]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][also there are a number of people doing experiements with the fluid... VG degrading to acroline etc... They seem to be the experts, I have to go back to my home town for a clinicla rotation and I still have access to the chemistry department at my former university, I think I will take a day and run the fluid through NMR (they have a 600mHZ, ftIR (including used vs, new attys) GCMS, LCMS etc. generate some data.. but that won't be till summer, pich my old professors brain, she is freaking genius, really Mensa's Mensa, see how she would approach it] [/FONT]

SleepHater (great name by the way) --What a great contribution you have made here and we would appretiate it very much if you could indeed put to rest the Acroline issue--thanks again---Sun

 

[LuckyCharm]

I don't know where you find the time to do all this, but THANKS!

~~Cheryl

 

[SleepHater]

Just trying to chip in. I think a bunch of us just want to know for sure if we can just happily vape away all day with no worry... I hope we can, I cannot imagine life w/o my EVO. Makes these 20 hour days a little less miserable. Just need those who can to provide good samples to test when the time comes, better sample = better data and hopefully some quantitative answers!

 

[SleepHater]

I don't know where you find the time to do all this, but THANKS!

~~Cheryl

Hating sleep helps !

 

[LuckyCharm]

Just need those who can to provide good samples to test when the time comes....

I volunteer as a guinea pig! Vape me, rape me, make me write bad checks....

~~Cheryl

 

[SleepHater]

I volunteer as a guinea pig! Vape me, rape me, make me write bad checks....

~~Cheryl

Duly Noted!