Except for butyric acid; I looked it up too, and all I can find for potential side effects for it is "possible irritation," which seems quite benign compared to "possible lung destruction."
Andria
Diacetyl. Concerned and confused.
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Except for butyric acid; I looked it up too, and all I can find for potential side effects for it is "possible irritation," which seems quite benign compared to "possible lung destruction."
Andria
Another thing a DIY-er can do if He/She believes that Flavorings/Sweeteners may cause harm is to use Less Flavorings/Sweeteners.
If: Flavorings/Sweeteners = Potential Harm.
Then: Less Flavorings/Sweeteners = Less Potential Harm.
I'm doing an experiment today and filled a tank with Halo Fusion 3.6%. It is allright. Not an all day vape, but not bad, either...
I do Unflavored occasionally. Like you said, it is Alright.
What I did notice is when I started doing DIY, I was using about 25% Total Flavoring/Sweetener. Just like weaning off Higher levels of Nicotine mg/ml, I started using less Flavoring/Sweetener.
Today, I using about 10% Total Flavoring/Sweetener. In fact, I think it Tastes Better than my Original 25% Recipes.
Except for butyric acid; I looked it up too, and all I can find for potential side effects for it is "possible irritation," which seems quite benign compared to "possible lung destruction."
Andria
Yeah, the only info aside from Wiki was from a thread on here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-liquid-discussion/583877-butyric-acid-alternative-diacetyl-acetoin-acetyl-proprionyl-but-toxic-epa-3.html
A poster also stated concerns for use of butyric acid...
"I looked up the MSDS on Butyric acid and it doesn't look like its too pleasant to be inhaling. My understanding is that through inhalation it can cause chemical burns in the respiratory tract. I would direct link the MSDS page but I think my post count is too low to do so. If you would like to see it for yourself, you can go to fishersci.com, then type butyric acid in the search. This will bring up their product listing that they sell. If you click the one they have that is supplied by acros organics (3rd option,+99%) the next page will have a MSDS link with all the chemicals pertinents. Keep in mind the information there is for concentrated butyric acid but I would be apprehensive about using it. "
So, the long and short is basically as Stevegmu says, don't vape creamy flavours if you deem the delicious taste as not being worth the risk.
Let me summarize in a much more concise and considerably less gentle manner.
Again no one can say any of this is safe, and diacetyl is certain not good for you, but it is no longer (if it ever was) exactly a pervasive and immediate threatening issue either as far as I can tell.
Much of a lengthy and oft referenced thread was just plain invalid, and parts were a disingenuous and inaccurate portrayal which can reasonably be assumed to be an indirect marketing agenda. This is exploitive.
After a time the paranoia reached the level where many people were suggesting they might just go back to analogs. At that point in time I consider further involvement that might reinforce that as not even short of downright criminal.
Excessive concern over diketones and the various other unknowns of vaping by anyone who is also actively smoking cigarettes is woefully misguided. Vaping has it's unknowns, cigarettes on the other hand are very well known. Choosing analogs over attempting to reduce or replace them with vaping, given what is known, should not be deterred by random paranoia or fear-mongering over issue like diketones, which can easily be mostly avoided anyway.
The blunt message of my lengthy earlier post was nothing more than a kinder gentler rational way to deliver a single short, sharp message - most people don't have a clue what a diketone even is. But if you are reluctant to try a vaping harm reduction program for any health concern reason, and you continue to smoke tobacco, the message is quite simple:
Use some fuc#in common sense. Seriously.
Again no one can say any of this is safe, and diacetyl is certain not good for you, but it is no longer (if it ever was) exactly a pervasive and immediate threatening issue either as far as I can tell.
Much of a lengthy and oft referenced thread was just plain invalid, and parts were a disingenuous and inaccurate portrayal which can reasonably be assumed to be an indirect marketing agenda. This is exploitive.
After a time the paranoia reached the level where many people were suggesting they might just go back to analogs. At that point in time I consider further involvement that might reinforce that as not even short of downright criminal.
Excessive concern over diketones and the various other unknowns of vaping by anyone who is also actively smoking cigarettes is woefully misguided. Vaping has it's unknowns, cigarettes on the other hand are very well known. Choosing analogs over attempting to reduce or replace them with vaping, given what is known, should not be deterred by random paranoia or fear-mongering over issue like diketones, which can easily be mostly avoided anyway.
The blunt message of my lengthy earlier post was nothing more than a kinder gentler rational way to deliver a single short, sharp message - most people don't have a clue what a diketone even is. But if you are reluctant to try a vaping harm reduction program for any health concern reason, and you continue to smoke tobacco, the message is quite simple:
Use some fuc#in common sense. Seriously.
There is considerable difference. The levels of diacetyl in liquids, if any, is very small, otherwise they would be overpowering to where you would not vape them. E-Cigs have been shown to be only moderately effective as delivery systems. People in plants were working with drums of *pure* or highly concentrated diacetyl and in processes that increased the surface area of the liquid (e.g coating popcorn) all of which lead to considerable ambient volatiles.
And they were *breathing* it, not intermittantly vaping it.
The difference is on the order of magnitude of something like light years apart.
OK.
Can you list the PPM levels for the Factory Workers and for a Vaper so we can Compare them?
What was the PPM that the workers were exposed to this before the issue was discovered?
I've seen the now deemed safe/acceptable levels, but don't remember ever seeing the levels they were exposed to before the issue was known.
I've seen the now deemed safe/acceptable levels, but don't remember ever seeing the levels they were exposed to before the issue was known.
MSDS data is difficult to extrapolate.
If you opened a bottle of 99% Butyric Acid outside of a good fume hood, you would choke immediately. You might spew. You would be inclined to burn your clothes.
OTOH, butyric acid is also already found, or more often it's close relative and not much less obnoxious isomer 2-Methylbutyric acid in many different types of flavors, and is widely used a standard component in tobacco flavors. You also produce it yourself, it is a major component of sweat.
Extrapolation of data actually requires some reason to reasonably believe you can extend some kind of physical observation a *short* range outside of a standardized protocol.
Invoking MSDS data for anything at 99% to vape liquids is not even extrapolation, it is merely science fiction.
If you opened a bottle of 99% Butyric Acid outside of a good fume hood, you would choke immediately. You might spew. You would be inclined to burn your clothes.
OTOH, butyric acid is also already found, or more often it's close relative and not much less obnoxious isomer 2-Methylbutyric acid in many different types of flavors, and is widely used a standard component in tobacco flavors. You also produce it yourself, it is a major component of sweat.
Extrapolation of data actually requires some reason to reasonably believe you can extend some kind of physical observation a *short* range outside of a standardized protocol.
Invoking MSDS data for anything at 99% to vape liquids is not even extrapolation, it is merely science fiction.
Do you have the PPM levels for vapors? If so you should be able to publish a journal article.
I cannot give you quantitative data, but I did work a Weaver site to design some equipment for their efforts to reduce worker exposure when the popcorn lung story was brand new news. I never entered the building where the flavoring was used. The entire grounds were enveloped in an orangey/yellowish fog from it coming out of the factory. It was like licking the inside of a microwave popcorn bag just exiting the company car. I smelled like butter for a week after each visit despite daily showers.
It was quite an experience and made me think the flavoring must be pretty cheap since nobody seems to care that there seemed to be tons of the stuff on the ground and even more in the air.
That plant had 2 cases of the lung condition out of over 100 workers. All the Weaver folks i dealt with had been on that job for over 20 years and seemed confused as to why it was suddenly a big issue for corporate. Those people must still smell like butter...
Very Good Question.
Also, there are Sometimes "Threshold" amount where a Substance may be considered GRAS. But after that Point, it is Not. And considered Toxic.
Other times, there can be Cumulative Toxicity. Meaning that a One Time Exposure may not be Consider Harmful. Whereas Long Term Exposure, even at Lower Levels, can cause harm.
This Second on is what Some people who use Flavored e-Liquids, Any Flavor, are starting to be More Concerned with.
I do believe if we are going to worry, the cumulative effects are what would probably affect us most. Especially since many of us are vaping nearly non-stop from the moment we wake until the moment we sleep.
I don't.
That is why I asked you to Post what you Knew.
Because you seem to believe that there is No Similarity between these Workers and Vapers. And was Curious what you were basing this on?
Very True.
BTW - Diacetyl may be the Buzz Word of the Week when it comes to Chemical Compound that may cause Potential Harm. But there are MANY Chemical Compounds that are found in the Average Flavored e-Liquid.
I agree, I've seen the lists Linda posts at TFA for a single flavor.
I always think about how Diacetyl is just the "one" we are aware of causing issues now, and see the lawsuit/lawyer commercials 10-20 years from now about 30 other chemical components we use daily in flavorings that are just waiting to be discovered as damaging
It makes you want to go unflavored, but that's just so bland it's hard to commit to after using so many flavored liquids.
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