Diacetyl Free - Does it Matter?

[Jman8]

it's the principle of the thing. i shouldn't have to.
should i have to test the meat i buy for mad cow? should i have to test my milk to make sure it is pasteurized?

In a regulated market, no you shouldn't have to. But let's say you had concerns beyond what the current market is offering, then it would be in your best interest to do testing that satisfies your standards/concerns.

wrong....
cyclops vapor only started with 2 flavors (they have 9 now) and they are one of the biggest most well know brands. didn't start out big though.
5 pawns is also super big (not endorsing though) and only started with 5 flavors
Suicide Bunny only started with 5 flavors
Cuttwood only started with 1 flavor
Cosmic fog only started with 5

Not wrong. Already stipulated my previous comment with what you are suggesting.

i can go on and on.
point is, MANY of the most popular eliquid brands don't have more than 10 flavors or so, and only started off with 5 or less flavors.
just because a company is only selling 3 flavors doesn't mean it's not making money.
especially when most places have a 1000%+ mark up on the juice they sell. with a 1000% mark up, it's easy to make money.

5P is good example. They did the testing, but that was second guessed. So shows that even if tests are done, it might not be good enough for some consumers.

Also, main point is that in current market you can find vendors that have done testing, do disclosure. Those that do not are not ones that ought to go by demand of some vaper's inflated concerns over DA. You might disagree with this, and I'll continue to debate on this point.

it doesn't. its a one time test, unless they change the recipe. one test for every flavor they carry, and boom.

You're funny. One time test. OMG, that cracks me up.

crazy-ville is where people have to do all their own testing for everything that they buy.

If they have concerns for things that have not been correlated with actual cases of harm.

"oh, this car i just bought says it's safe, but the manufacturer doesn't want to pay for crash tests......guess i gotta go crash it myself and do my own testing" this seems to be what you think

To match what I think it would be that manufacturer doesn't want to pay for tests on the colorizing of their car seats because some drivers think that it will cause significant car accidents. Just cause there aren't any cases of this occurring doesn't mean in the next 30 years there won't be and so if costs on automobiles go up for this sort of testing, it'll be a good thing. Ya know, cause I'm all about harm reduction.

 

[Jman8]

So what is your argument? Hm? Diketones are A-okay? Keep 'em in e-juice?

The argument, in case you are new to ECF and vaping politics, is that if you have a concern with something you are vaping, seek vendors that match the standards you desire in a product. This is perhaps the best you can do in a under regulated market. There are many other things that can be done. Those options may include, but are not limited to:
- stop vaping if you are that concerned and are truly all about avoiding risks
- demand that all vendors test their products, and if they don't, demand that federal regulators step in to manage the industry, hopefully weeding out all those that aren't up to particular standards, the more weeding out the better. Maybe BV and BT will offer wonderful products for all to enjoy.
- do your own testing on things that are available in the under regulated market. This way you won't have to rely on faith in vendors, and will then have the most certainty on what it is you say you are concerned about.
- ask nicely for a vendor to consider testing. If they do not, then move onto another vendor. Repeat and rinse.

As it stands right now, and as many have said, the actual harm from vaping diketones is not known (over the long term). Equally true with vaping nicotine over the longterm. We have no information on what that is like over the course of 30 years. For all we know, people's arms fall off around year 27. Who wants to take that risk? We do have information on what it means to inhale nicotine because smokers have been doing this for around 2 thousand years. Just as we have information that inhaling DA from smokes doesn't appear to cause serious lung issues in all cases, and really not in majority. There's around 10 times the amount in smokes, and so we do have some idea. Plus we have 7+ years of data (albeit anecdotal) that suggests lung issues from vaping (anything) are between non-existent or very rare. But we don't have long term data. Thus whatever is done, with any ingredient, by any sort of regulator will not provide us with that data. So, if the concern is truly that great and you are truly about avoiding risks, you'd honestly think of not vaping right now. Also not smoking. To not put that near the top of the list is being disingenuous if the point is truly about avoidable risks.

 

[NancyR]

This is something I wrote on it a while back

Lately diacetyl in e-juice has come back under fire. So I wanted to take a few minutes and share some interesting facts.

What is Diacetyl? The short answer is, it is a flavor additive that tastes like butter. The longer answer can be found on-line here Diacetyl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Diacetyl (IUPAC systematic name: butanedione or butane-2,3-dione) is an organic compound with the chemical formula (CH3CO)2. It is a volatile, yellow/green liquid with an intensely buttery flavor. It is avicinal diketone (two C=O groups, side-by-side) with the molecular formula C4H6O2. Diacetyl occurs naturally in alcoholic beverages and is added to some foods to impart its buttery flavor.

It has been known to cause what is referred to as popcorn lung (bronchiolitis obliterans (BO) ) in workers in microwave popcorn plants. While this is troubling it should be noted that so far only one consumer has ever gotten BO.

Is it really that bad? While I want vendors to test their juices for diacetyl and other diketones, the question we should look at is: “Is this really that bad?” I find it curious that for something as bad as this is, to not have caused many of us to get BO from smoking, as diacetyl is one of over 500 chemicals added to cigarette tobacco under the name 2,3-Butanedione. Cigarette Ingredients - Chemicals in Cigarettes

If 2 bags of microwave popcorn a day for 10 years can cause a man to get BO, then surly those of us who smoked 2+ packs a day for 10+ years should have also been at risk, but to my knowledge none of us have developed BO.

Now all of that said, I personally don’t want needless risks for such things as BO in my e-juices and I do applaud vendors like Mike at Roar Vapor who do test their juices and reformulate any that come back with it.

It should be noted that higher amounts of some flavors can also show diacetyl when lower amounts of the same flavor does not.

So what about those of us who DIY? As most of the juice I vape is DIY it is important to understand the risks of what I am doing. As many of us can’t afford to spend $300 per juice to get it tested, we need to rely on facts and common sense.

We know not all flavor manufacturers test their flavorings, in reality very very few do, but that doesn’t need to stop us from being on the safe side of things. Using high quality, highly concentrated flavorings helps. As the less of a favoring needed the less chance it has to naturally create chemicals reactions leading to unwanted things in e-juice.

At the end of the day it comes down to what we already knew, vaping is safer than smoking. Even with diacetyl in a juice it has been shown to be 100 times lower than that found in cigarettes. A new study verifies the lower risk-potential of e-cigarettes but identifies an avoidable risk

 

[DC2]

As I've always said, if somebody didn't know, then "I don't know" is a perfectly good answer.

I am a big fan of "I don't know" and I use it as often as I can.
It sure beats people making up crap, which happens all the time these days.

I'll respect a salesperson for saying they don't know something.
I'll respect them even more if they don't know but make an effort to find out.

But if they make up crap, they've just lost a customer.
Can't even tell you how many times that happens nowadays.

 

[Rossum]

Why test for anything that hasn't been proven harmful?

Because a portion of your potential market thinks it MIGHT be harmful and won't buy your product if you don't have it tested.

 

[Racehorse]

So what is your argument? Hm? Diketones are A-okay? Keep 'em in e-juice?

Dr. F. and his researchers said it doesn't belong in ejuice. I guess it depends on whether you value that assessment or not.

Obviously, many here do not.

So the only way to appease both sides is that some vendors have provided test results. Vapers who do not want diacetyl or AP in their lungs (since they gave up smoking in order to pursue harm reduction) will give their money to those vendors.

Of interest is that many of the largest companies now, the ones with market share like NJOY, MOV, etc. all seem to have taken the DAP out of their eliquids.

The argument, in case you are new to ECF and vaping politics

Regardless of some of these "get with the program here" replies like this one, there will still be many vapers who don't use "politics" to decide what to put into their bodies. They prefer to use their own gut perceptions and research from those they respect (i.e. researchers who are vape - friendly) to make that decision.

Arguing about it in endless topics is not gonna change that.

nyiddle won't be the first or last person to say NO to DAP-laden eliquids and I suspect that companies who don't use it are doing a brisk business these days. So not sure what the problem is.

 

[AzPlumber]

nyiddle won't be the first or last person to say NO to DAP-laden eliquids

If that was the case I might tend to agree but the argument is zero tolerance not laden (heavily loaded or weighed down) with.

 

[Asbestos4004]

I like some D/AP and I can not lie
You other brothers can't deny
That when a juice comes in with a creamy custard taste
And a drip tip in your face
You get sprung
Wanna pull up tough
'cause you notice that juice was stuffed
Deep in the tank I'm wickin
I'm hooked and it's custard I'm pickin
Oh, baby I wanna vape with ya
And take your dripper
My homeboys tried to slap me
But that custard I got
Make Me so happy
Ooh, tank of creamy D/APy
You say you wanna go unflavored
Well go ahead 'cause you aint that average vaper

*drops mic

 

[skoony]

You're banking on diketones being fine,

You're banking on diketones being harmful.

It has been known to cause what is referred to as popcorn lung

It has been associated with cases of popcorn lung in commercial food processing plants. With less than 30 cases ever
reported all occurring between the late 1990's and early 2000's except for 2.

Because a portion of your potential market thinks it MIGHT be harmful and won't buy your product if you don't have it tested.

Then they can buy product from someone else. Providing service to a customer is one thing.
Kissing everyone's ring finger is another. It is what it is. There's plenty of fish in the sea and
all that. Being a customer does not entitle one to any special privileges I am aware of.
Its a two way street. If one approves of my product buy it. If not buy elsewhere.
No harm no foul.
Regards
Mike

 

[DC2]

It has been associated with cases of popcorn lung in commercial food processing plants. With less than 30 cases ever reported all occurring between the late 1990's and early 2000's except for 2.

I am on the side of voluntary disclosure.

But those who don't disclose I will not buy from.
Those that do disclose allow me to make an informed choice.

I have not determined yet what my level of concern is over this issue.
But I choose to err on the side of caution.

Bronchiolitis obliterans is a bad mamma-jamma.

That is my personal choice, which I do not wish to force on anyone else.
Including the vendors.

However, with respect to what I quoted, I do have additional concerns.
I think that bronchiolitis obliterans MAY be seriously underdiagnosed in the real world.

So that viewpoint tempers my level of concern.
Whether that viewpoint is right or wrong is open for further discussion.

 

[skoony]

I am on the side of voluntary disclosure.

But those who don't disclose I will not buy from.
Those that do disclose allow me to make an informed choice.

I have not determined yet what my level of concern is over this issue.
But I choose to err on the side of caution.

Bronchiolitis obliterans is a bad mamma-jamma.

That is my personal choice, which I do not wish to force on anyone else.
Including the vendors.

However, with respect to what I quoted, I do have additional concerns.
I think that bronchiolitis obliterans MAY be seriously underdiagnosed in the real world.

So that viewpoint tempers my level of concern.
Whether that viewpoint is right or wrong is open for further discussion.

I totally respect your choice. I myself cannot get beyond the math.
Less than thirty case reported verses tens of millions of exposures
that should theoretically have been identical or worse leads me to
believe OB simply could not have been totally over looked.
One would think with all the research done studying smoking related
illnesses some one would have made a link. I find it an interesting
study in human nature to observe how OB with less than 30 cases
Ever reported scares so many people. One thousand people a year
contract leprosy in the US. I don't hear of any one wanting to slaughter
armadillos.
Regards
Mike

 

[DC2]

I myself cannot get beyond the math.
Less than thirty case reported verses tens of millions of exposures
that should theoretically have been identical or worse leads me to
believe OB simply could not have been totally over looked.

Diagnosing something as COPD or even emphysema is easy.
Diagnosing something as bronchiolitis obliterans requires a lung biopsy.

I just don't see anyone bothering with a lung biopsy when it costs extra money.
Especially when, regardless of final diagnosis, it will still be chalked up to smoking killed them.

And in the end, that's all THEY want.
More numbers of smoking deaths to point at.

 

[skoony]

Diagnosing something as COPD or even emphysema is easy.
Diagnosing something as bronchiolitis obliterans requires a lung biopsy.

I just don't see anyone bothering with a lung biopsy when it costs extra money.
Especially when, regardless of final diagnosis, it will still be chalked up to smoking killed them.

And in the end, that's all THEY want.
More numbers of smoking deaths to point at.

Over the course of time more than enough biopsies have been preformed
to have detected OB. Biopsies are not only done to diagnosis illness.
They are helpful in determining the severity of the illness and help
aid in the choice of treatment.
Regards
Mike

 

[sparkky1]

Diagnosing something as COPD or even emphysema is easy.
Diagnosing something as bronchiolitis obliterans requires a lung biopsy.

I just don't see anyone bothering with a lung biopsy when it costs extra money.
Especially when, regardless of final diagnosis, it will still be chalked up to smoking killed them.

And in the end, that's all THEY want.
More numbers of smoking deaths to point at.

Diagnosis and treatment of constrictive bronchiolitis

 

[Jman8]

However, with respect to what I quoted, I do have additional concerns.
I think that bronchiolitis obliterans MAY be seriously underdiagnosed in the real world.

So that viewpoint tempers my level of concern.
Whether that viewpoint is right or wrong is open for further discussion.

The condition is irreversible (or so they say) and onset of symptoms begins within 18 months after exposure (in the cases that are known).

You have to whistle a different tune about vaping (harms) to think it is seriously under diagnosed if what I just wrote is accurate. And if it is not accurate, please (anyone) enlighten us with updated accurate information.

I think, with regards to vaping, it IS seriously overblown. May as well join the crowd of harms associated with nicotine crowd if taking this issue and treating it as significant enough to greatly impact the industry.

 

[DeAnna2112]

I see a lot of focus being put on factory workers, but if you google you will see a major concern on the rise in the food industry with cooks. It's quite alarming the number of lung problems with cooks that are being associated with their daily exposure to diketones in the food they are cooking. So it's not just factory workers we should be paying attention to in measuring the widespread effects of these chemicals on the lungs IMO.

 

[sparkky1]

The condition is irreversible (or so they say) and onset of symptoms begins within 18 months after exposure (in the cases that are known).

You have to whistle a different tune about vaping (harms) to think it is seriously under diagnosed if what I just wrote is accurate. And if it is not accurate, please (anyone) enlighten us with updated accurate information.

I think, with regards to vaping, it IS seriously overblown. May as well join the crowd of harms associated with nicotine crowd if taking this issue and treating it as significant enough to greatly impact the industry.

Well .......... there was that "10 year " popcorn bag eater guy Wayne Watson and wouldn't you know it o'l DR Rose "We cannot be sure that this patient's exposure to butter-flavored microwave popcorn from daily heavy preparation has caused his lung disease," but the jury sure did enjoy the explanation ............

 

[skoony]

I see a lot of focus being put on factory workers, but if you google you will see a major concern on the rise in the food industry with cooks. It's quite alarming the number of lung problems with cooks that are being associated with their daily exposure to diketones in the food they are cooking. So it's not just factory workers we should be paying attention to in measuring the widespread effects of these chemicals on the lungs IMO.

There was a scare circa 2008. It quickly and quietly blew over. Having worked
in the industry for over 30 year's that was the only time the subject caused
any controversy I am aware of. There have been several news articles citing
the concern that flavorings may be an issue but, did not cite current accounts
or studies. Just a rehash of the popcorn lung stuff we all are familiar with.
Besides,they are not using flavors suspended in a viscous liquid.
Regards
Mike

 

[Moonbogg]

Skoony, do you sell e-juice?

 

[skoony]

Skoony, do you sell e-juice?

No.
Regards
Mike