Diacetyl Free - Does it Matter?

[dionysuskiss]

I'm all for discloser of ingredients. But that's about where, I draw the line. I'm an adult, and perfectly capable of making an informed decision about what I choose or not, to put in my body. All of us vapers are. If you choose to be d/ap free, good for you. That is within your rights. But to those that are demanding that ALL vendors and flavor makers be d/ap free, that takes away MY rights.So then, if they do, do away with d/ap, what about the alternatives? Suppose they turn out just as "bad"? Would you then demand, unflavored only? That sounds pretty familiar, doesn't it? Where would you draw the line. All the Nannyism is leaving a real bad taste in my mouth (pun intended)

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

I don't get it! Regular cigarettes have diacetyl and in much higher quantities. Does anyone force them to make Diacetyl-free cigarettes? No they don't. But with vaping the vendors gave us options.

I understand some vapers want their vape to be as safe as possible and that's their choice. But others might want the flavors that aren't diacetyl free. That's their choice. Nobody's choice should take precedence if it doesn't harm others. And the alternative chemical the diacetyl free vendors are using may be just as bad or even worse.

I smoked for over 20 years at 2 packs a day. vaping flavors got me away from that habit. After smoking that long, anything is better! I feel 100 times better. I can breathe better. I can run again. My health has improved drastically. I love my diacetyl laden flavors and will continue to vape them. Nobody should try to impede on my choices.

If those flavors didn't exist I know I'd still be smoking.

 

[Coolloser]

Personally, I don't care if my juice has diacetyl or ap or whatever because I smoked for years, all this .... is better than what is in cigarettes. I do believe juice makers should be upfront if their juice contains these things though.

 

[Coolloser]

My phone likes to double post, I guess it likes the attention.

 

[DeAnna2112]

From what i have read in this thread, nobody is saying that anyones choices should be taken away. The problem is eliquid sellers who have lied time and time again making claims they knew they could not back up or were not true. ...so it's not about forcing testing or completely removing diketones from liquids is it? Vendors caused this uproar and scrutiny that is based on a lack of trust , not vapers.

The dishonesty has been so rampant I DIY and vape unflavored now thanks to too many shady vendors. Sorry I don't trust any of them or the product they claim to be trying to sell me...testing or no testing.

 

[DeAnna2112]

None of us want to see regulations, but if they are implemented, it's the vendors fault who warranted the regulations so shame on those vendors and shame on those vapers who continue to support them and keep them in business.
Everyone suffers because of it...both vapers and legit vaping businesses out there.

Stop blaming it on everyone and everything but the ones who are causing the regulations. I am sure those shady sellers and their supporting vapers are enjoying the finger pointing as it takes the finger off of them...ehem!!

 

[Zach M]

Depends on the lab. The $200 could be accurate, but is likely seen as unreliable and/or only partially addressing the perceived problem. Like if I said I'd test juice for DA for $1, and my test method is (as you can imagine) very poor, then it would be seen as unreliable. But the headline could be written as "it only costs $1 to test!"

Wow, if you can back that up with some factual information from Enthalpy, that means there's really no excuse for even a small start-up e-juice company to not test their juice. $200 is nothing comparable to the overhead of acquiring the proper equipment and materials to become an e-liquid vendor (assuming you're not just mixing your liquid in your bathtub, swimming pool, local pond, etc..)

Just FYI - here is the response from the company Enthalpy for cost to test juice....really the cost is $125 - $150 to test a juice, then its another $15 for the report

Thank you for the inquiry. Most manufacturers are testing either pure flavors and/or final products for Acetoin, Diacetyl and 2,3-Pentanedione (Acetyl propionyl) at this time. The detection limit is ~1.00 ppm by GC/MS as the cost is $150/sample ($125/sample with submissions of >10) + $15 per certification report if needed. Other harmful constituents in final e-liquids that we test for are Tobacco Specific Nitrosamines (TSNAs) and Nicotine concentration confirmation. The TSNAs are $150/sample and Nicotine confirmations are $50/sample.

 

[Zach M]

Wouldn't the same thing be true for personal testing? If you only have one flavor that you absolutely love and can't live without, and it only costs $200 for 'peace of mind' then please explain to me why you wouldn't do the test yourself?

But if you are on tight budget, and love about 50 flavors, then I can very much see why you wouldn't want to spend the $10,000 to do your own testing, even while it WOULD be in your best interest.

I don't think the vendor selling 3 flavors, unless they are considered best in the business, is making lots of money.

I'm sure somewhere that makes sense, in crazy-ville.

hmm...Look at "Mad Hatter" - only one flavor, they do crazy business...."ANML", two or three flavors I think...Cosmic Fog - Lost Fog Collection - three flavors..I know there are more but thats just what I could think of off the top of my head - please think before typing

 

[Zach M]

The other thing too is that it's not just about diacetyl...I could have included everything in the title, but that seems excessive - however you also have these ingredients / chemicals to think about that are in some jucies:
Diacetyl
Acetyl Propionyl
Butyric Acid
Acetoins (in general)
diethylene glycol (DEG)
diketones

as well as the heavy metals mercury, lead, chromium and cadmiu
BPA leaching...

Few other things that I can't think of right now, but pushing for transparency from companies I think is a good thing...If you know whats in your juice then you are choosing to take those things into your body...The arguement of "O cigarettes are worse" is horrible, this is not smoking - this is vaping; vaping is / should be thought of as harm reduction

 

[AzPlumber]

None of us want to see regulations, but if they are implemented, it's the vendors fault who warranted the regulations so shame on those vendors and shame on those vapers who continue to support them and keep them in business.
Everyone suffers because of it...both vapers and legit vaping businesses out there.

Stop blaming it on everyone and everything but the ones who are causing the regulations. I am sure those shady sellers and their supporting vapers are enjoying the finger pointing as it takes the finger off of them...ehem!!

Some folks have taken up torches, joined the mob and are calling for the Diacetyl Monster's head without knowing the monster's deposition. Others are waiting on the facts. Tell me again who is responsible for any regulations? If we call for the removal of any and all unknown/might be dangers in vaping you can count on an over regulated market.

 

[Zach M]

Tell me again who is responsible for any regulations?

I just think the industry should be self regulating, for the most part it has been.....I do wish some more studies would be done on vaping tho

 

[skoony]

From what i have read in this thread, nobody is saying that anyones choices should be taken away. The problem is eliquid sellers who have lied time and time again making claims they knew they could not back up or were not true. ...so it's not about forcing testing or completely removing diketones from liquids is it? Vendors caused this uproar and scrutiny that is based on a lack of trust , not vapers.

There is no proof the vendors lied maliciously. They new as much about diketones as the 99.9% of
us vapers knew. Nothing. It was a very small percentage of vapers whom thru their self righteous
behavior that caused this controversy. Anyone can make a phone call to some order taker and
get convoluted answers if that was the intent to begin with. And lets face it,the intent was to
rake vendors through the muck. I know the game. Keep emailing and calling and the first wrong
answer you get becomes the great lie. One must have the big lie for these things to work.
The same thing with the coils and the metal poisoning us. The same thing with the wicks,cotton
and silica.Black lung and cancer.Alcohol based flavorings sure.
Its all the evil vendors who were selling products that 99.9% of there customers loved.
In the meantime someone's google search turns up popcorn lung and sets out to save the
world. Well excuse me for not buying it. Still I am am perfectly willing to concede that
vaping hasn't been proved to be potentially 100+% safe. We wont know for 20 to 30 years that it is
as safe as we believe it to be.
And that is why the FDA,the ANTZ,BT,BP,the entire medical establishment, all
the governments loosing tax money and, the alphabet agencies are freaking out. I believe
they believe its so safe it not only threatens their cash cow, it also might bring into
question their authority and reasoning for their decisions,past,present and, in the future.
Its not what the vendors and us have done. We represent to much free range money.
Its their job to put up the barb wire fence's.
You take something as safe and easy to make as Kool-Aid. Combine it with a
pathetically simple electronic circuit and presto you have an e-cig. Now lets
pretend that the e-juice is the payload on a minuteman missle and regulate it as
such. Seems legit to me.

Regards
Mike

 

[sparkky1]

From what i have read in this thread, nobody is saying that anyones choices should be taken away. The problem is eliquid sellers who have lied time and time again making claims they knew they could not back up or were not true. ...so it's not about forcing testing or completely removing diketones from liquids is it? Vendors caused this uproar and scrutiny that is based on a lack of trust , not vapers.

The dishonesty has been so rampant I DIY and vape unflavored now thanks to too many shady vendors. Sorry I don't trust any of them or the product they claim to be trying to sell me...testing or no testing.

You DIY and don't trust any of them ? FlavourArt are the main funders for Dr Farsolinos and the Clearstream project since 2012

 

[sparkky1]

The other thing too is that it's not just about diacetyl...I could have included everything in the title, but that seems excessive - however you also have these ingredients / chemicals to think about that are in some jucies:
Diacetyl
Acetyl Propionyl
Butyric Acid
Acetoins (in general)
diethylene glycol (DEG)
diketones

as well as the heavy metals mercury, lead, chromium and cadmiu
BPA leaching...

Few other things that I can't think of right now, but pushing for transparency from companies I think is a good thing...If you know whats in your juice then you are choosing to take those things into your body...The arguement of "O cigarettes are worse" is horrible, this is not smoking - this is vaping; vaping is / should be thought of as harm reduction

So if you had the ability to order juice from said company and there 3rd party test showed no trace amounts of first two compounds on your list above, would it be safe to say you would be more inclined to order from and "trust" them more ?

 

[Jman8]

From what i have read in this thread, nobody is saying that anyones choices should be taken away.

OP says/asks: why aren't we (as a community) not pushing manufactures to be diacetyl free?

Strong implication there that if you, as member of the community, are okay with the DA situation as is, then sorry, the mob has spoken and we are pushing for the 'betterment of all.'

The problem is eliquid sellers who have lied time and time again making claims they knew they could not back up or were not true. ...so it's not about forcing testing or completely removing diketones from liquids is it? Vendors caused this uproar and scrutiny that is based on a lack of trust , not vapers.

The dishonesty has been so rampant I DIY and vape unflavored now thanks to too many shady vendors. Sorry I don't trust any of them or the product they claim to be trying to sell me...testing or no testing.

I mostly don't get why a DIY'er would care one way or another, and really don't get why they'd take a potshot at the industry during this time.

I also don't believe the deception is rampant, and for sure isn't malicious as @skoony has noted. Would be like if you got diacetyl laced flavors from flavor company that said none are in there, and you passed it along to friend. Andwithout the friend even asking, you making it a point to say "and it's diacetyl free!" And then the friend finds out that flavor, from that company actually contains it. Would that be fair to say you told a (malicious) lie to your friend? Cause that is very much how I see the situation in the industry.

Not to mention the lies the anti-diacetyl crowd has to tell in order for their points to hold water. No evidence of harm to vapers (or very very very little) and yet the anti-diacetyl crowd continually paints a picture of 'extreme danger to vapers by it being put in.' I would say that lie is more malicious than what industry has done.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Yes, yes, yes!

It matters to some of us, to others not so much.

I don't eat junk food or fast food, either, so....

... yet I don't want to outlaw junk food. Let people eat that um....food....if they want.




Plenty of vapers are pushing......with their pocketbooks. We make lists in threads like this (running for 11 months now)
Diketones-free vendors

and this:
The Diketone free tested vendors list

People can spend their money how they want.....they earned it.

BTW, For some reason, that phrase "why don't WE as a community do something" has worrisome overtones. Reminds me of gated communities and HOA's n' stuff....places where people like to pass rules for other people.

I guess that is why I live on 10 acres in the woods.

 

[Jman8]

None of us want to see regulations, but if they are implemented, it's the vendors fault who warranted the regulations so shame on those vendors and shame on those vapers who continue to support them and keep them in business.
Everyone suffers because of it...both vapers and legit vaping businesses out there.

Stop blaming it on everyone and everything but the ones who are causing the regulations. I am sure those shady sellers and their supporting vapers are enjoying the finger pointing as it takes the finger off of them...ehem!!

I blame ANTZ and zealous regulators for the unwarranted regulations.

 

[Jman8]

hmm...Look at "Mad Hatter" - only one flavor, they do crazy business...."ANML", two or three flavors I think...Cosmic Fog - Lost Fog Collection - three flavors..I know there are more but thats just what I could think of off the top of my head - please think before typing

I did, and is why the stipulation "unless they are best in the business" covers whatever you think I may have been overlooking.

All my other points dealing with costs are things you, and others, have not addressed.

And with all that said, I still think it best for consumer to do own testing. Financially, it is not a great case I can make. But actually knowing, rather than putting faith in vendors, is more likely. Some (or many) of these vendors are the type that the anti-diacetyl crowd has zero faith in, which really doesn't make sense, except perhaps in crazy-ville. You wanna say we can't trust these vendors, and then turn around and say, we trust you'll do tests, and report those accurately. That actually might work for some people, but is really no different than asking makers of Chantix to test their product, report findings, and then say "now we can trust the makers of Chantix with all that they have done / reported to us." In reality, because Chantix had to go thru FDA approval before it was released to market initially, it was tested / vetted, but also was arguably not vetted thoroughly, for the whole "long term data" thing will not be had from ANY test that comes about in next 1 to 5 years.

On the financial side, for consumers, if a vaper could get what is currently the best device around (non-clone) for $150, whereas normal cost is say $500, I think many would jump at that. But ask that same consumer to pay for testing that would give them peace of mind, and suddenly the cost is astronomical. If vendor applied same logic, they'd be seen as greedy. When a consumer does it, what do we say then about that consumer?

 

[DeAnna2112]

You DIY and don't trust any of them ? FlavourArt are the main funders for Dr Farsolinos and the Clearstream project since 2012

I do trust Dr. F because he tells it like it is whether his findings reflect good or bad on vaping...unlike others who support his work only by cherry picking what they want to hear and selectively determining what they support which is only pro vaping findings.

Those who fund his work is neither here or there on the matter..a lot of companies fund things for advertising purposes and has no reflection on how they behave as a company behind the curtains. I am not saying anything against flavor art and as far as i know they have done no wrong, just stating that i no longer trust any eliquid seller period and why that is and what the solution is for me personally.

If regulations come down (which i don't want to see) in these areas that have been a problem then the vendors and those who support these vendors are to blame for it because they have given a legit reason for gov to act on it. But i am sure many will continue to point the finger at gov conspiracies theories in a area where it was actually caused by the practices by some in the vaping industry. The gov is guilty of a lot of things..but sometimes it's our own crap that causes it too and this is one area that regulations will be self inflicted by vendors and the vapers who supported them and kept them in business.

I do not believe vendors should be required to test nor do i think diketones should be removed...i do expect transparency and honestly from vendors on these matters and not lies and false claims about their products in attempting to make a buck....and here is where the core problem is.

 

[sparkky1]

I do trust Dr. F because he tells it like it is whether his findings reflect good or bad on vaping...unlike others who support his work only by cherry picking what they want to hear and selectively determining what they support which is only pro vaping findings.

Those who fund his work is neither here or there on the matter..a lot of companies fund things for advertising purposes and has no reflection on how they behave as a company behind the curtains. I am not saying anything against flavor art and as far as i know they have done no wrong, just stating that i no longer trust any eliquid seller period and why that is and what the solution is for me personally.

If regulations come down (which i don't want to see) in these areas that have been a problem then the vendors and those who support these vendors are to blame for it because they have given a legit reason for gov to act on it. But i am sure many will continue to point the finger at gov conspiracies theories in a area where it was actually caused by the practices by some in the vaping industry. The gov is guilty of a lot of things..but sometimes it's our own crap that causes it too and this is one area that regulations will be self inflicted by vendors and the vapers who supported them and kept them in business.

I do not believe vendors should be required to test nor do i think diketones should be removed...i do expect transparency and honestly from vendors on these matters and not lies and false claims about their products in attempting to make a buck....and here is where the core problem is.

You still haven't a clue

The government doesn't give a damn about diketones being inhaled ! Cigarette Ingredients - Chemicals in Cigarettes
They come in and mandate labeling with said ingredients on the package / bottle and ready to collect "revenue" 250.000 $ for "testing" each recipe / licencing and whatever BT comes up with to put sales back up in there stock.
Vendors fault please .................... How much have you read ? does the to high % of children / high school kids vaping, sweet flavors ring a bell ?