Difficult Question......Thoughts.

[LisaLisa]

As judgment day draws closer, I've been thinking alot lately about the different people in the world, also been reading my bible alot lately too, always trying to understand things better.

For the last few days, something keeps popping back up in my mind, almost forcing me to think about it. That is, the people of the world, and who will be considered righteous and who won't.

Does being a christian mean you will be found righteous? Does not being a christian mean you won't be found righteous? Maybe, but maybe not............

Jesus said that the 2 most important things were to love God with your whole heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. It seems to me, that those are the 2 most important things according to God, how much you Love Him and how you treat other people.

So, what about the Jew that does these 2 things? Will he be found righteous? What about the Hindu that does these things, will he be found righteous?

What about the christian that does not do these things, will he be found righteous?

Just things that I"ve been thinking about lately........and pondering. God is a reader of hearts, maybe not religious labels?

I think I remember something about God judging a person based on what the person knows? I dont' remember exactly.

Thoughts on this?

 

[Desert Rat]

Lisa The Blood is the only access that is why Love is the key. The very fact that you ask is love for your fellow man. Remember what the man that was dead for over an hour said about the Lord strategizing with the angels. Prayer is what set that in motion they were acting on the prayers of the ones covered in the blood. The prayers move faster than anything else, that was a revelation to me! WOW Mathew 28:18-19 All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Now here is where it gets good (transfer of authority) Go therefor and make disciples of all nations. Your prayers is what makes the difference

Sin separates us all from God the blood washes sin away without the blood access is denied. So put on your armor pick up weapon (sword) and shoot some well aimed prayers. Do you know the name of the person that prayed for Charles Finney, or Billy G. It could have been Lisa!!

 

[HyOnLyph]

What a great and insightful post. I'm not going to fill this post with scripture. There's a lot of Biblical references.

When judgement comes, one will either be judged according to grace or according to the law. Not both. One or the other.

If one is judged according to grace, they are found righteous. Christ's righteousness covers all of their sin. Grace is applied when one believes in the gift of Christ. That Christ paid the price for all of our sins. etc etc. If one is truly a believer in Jesus, then they are found righteous.

For the believer, works of personal righteousness do not play into the equation. Their works are a response to the love of God as they have the revelation for. The depth of that revelation is between them and God. People (even Christians) sin and live destructive lives for various reasons.... reasons we cannot fathom sometimes. It is my opinion that we cannot judge a good Christian from a bad Christian because we do not know the fears and anguish that the "bad Christian" is struggling with.

I think it is possible, that the reason we sin is because we are afraid not to. We believe to an extent but only trust His love to the extent that we see today. And thus, God's grace is even more miraculous for those who struggle daily in their walk.

If one does not rely on grace, then they will be judged according to the law. Scripture does say that if they have never heard of Christ or his limitless mercy, then they will be judged according to their own heart and law. However, either way, judgement according to the law is a difficult place to be. All of have sinned and fallen short. The law reveals that we are worthy of death.

There are two main (maybe 3) theological positions as to what happens at judgement. There is scriptural evidence for both. That could lead to a lengthy discussion on it's own. The positions are these.

Position 1. Judgement is based upon their beliefs during their life. Upon judgement... if one is found righteous, they will go to heaven (new Jerusalem) for all eternity. If one is found un-righteous, (their sin not covered by the blood of Christ) they will be cast into Gehenna (the lake of fire) to be punished for all eternity. In addition to the unrighteous, all fallen angels, including Satan, will be cast into Gehenna as well for eternal punishment. Most Christian organizations follow this theology.

Position 2. At the time of judgement... for the righteous (the believers), they will go to heaven for all eternity. For the unrighteous, they will be cast into Gehenna for a season. An Age, as the bible calls it. During this time ("age abiding") in Gehenna, their emotional and/or mental blocks to Christ will be purged and they will come to a revelation of who Jesus is and what he did for them. At which point, they will be repentant, forgiven and restored to the family of God for all eternity. In essense, this position holds to the theology that Christ died for ALL and that through Him, ALL are restored to the Father. To take this position further, it is considered that the sacrifice of Christ was so valuable and so gracious, and that God's love so all-encompassing, that even the fallen angels will receive the revelation of the love of God to such an extent that even they will be repentant and thus forgiven and restored.

FYI (The third position deviates at the lake of fire and considers that it will consume them to nothingness and they will be utterly destroyed...as opposed to punished for all eternity)

I'll stop there and see if that answers most of your questions. I'll gladly answer any questions you have.

 

[angelique510]

If you are asking who will be Raptured, I heard an interesting theory. It won't just be everyone who is saved. It will be those Christians who are "walking the walk and talking the talk" people who are known, by all they come in contact with, to be Christians. That way, it will be obvious to all those left behind, that God fulfilled His promise, that the Bible was right, and that God is real. This will cause the biggest "revival" in history. Thousands of people will accept Jesus that day. These are the Christians that will be the martyrs of the Tribulation.

If your question is not Rapture specific and is just "Who will be judged righteous?" - First off, I don't think you and I should be asking that question. It is not a far throw from asking "Is George righteous or wicked?" to saying "George is righteous." or "George is wicked." We are not allowed to judge others. Only God can and should judge.

That being said, I like the way C.S. Lewis illustrated this exact same question in "The Last Battle" The ape named Shift (the false prophet) had declared that Aslan and Tash (the anti-Aslan and the evil god of the Calormenes) were really the same. Shift was sending people into a tent to meet "Tashlan" When followers of Aslan were forced into the tent, Aslan magic-ed them away to the True Narnia to live in paradise forever. When evil or unbelieving people went in, Tash ate them. This was not known to anyone before entering the tent. They just knew that no one came out of the tent.

***spoiler*** (if you haven't read the book yet)

There was a young Calormene soldier who stepped forward to go into the tent. He said he had always tried to be good and do the right thing. He had always honored and loved Tash, because Tash was the god of his country. He had no fear of going into the tent because he believed that God would judge him rightly. He accepted whatever judgement God made for him. He considered it an honor to go in and meet God, whatever happened. With faith, honor, and humility, he went into the tent. Peter (I believe it was) said "That soldier may have been my enemy because he was a Calormene, but I would have been proud to have known him." They were grieved because they believed all followers of Tash were condemned.

A few chapters later, after the battle, everyone was in the True Narnia. The found the young soldier. He was just sitting by himself, very confused and sad, because when he got there, Tash was not there to greet him. Aslan then came and explained to the soldier that He always knew what was in the boy's heart. Aslan is good. Tash is evil. If anyone does evil, even if they do it in Aslan's name, they are doing it for Tash. And if anyone does good, but they do it in Tash's name because that is the only name they know, they are doing it for Aslan.

Many legalistic Christians took exception to this part of the book. And I can see the specific verses in the Bible that would make them say this is an incorrect, unbiblical teaching.

Let me tell you another story about something that happened to me. I went to Sunday school for a few months with a friend of mine when I was eleven or twelve. One Sunday the teacher had a felt board and on it were paper cut-outs of different people. She was illustrating who gets to go to Heaven. She brought out a paper cut-out of Jesus and moved it over each of the people. Some of the people would stick to him and be carried to Heaven, and others stayed on the board. Jesus had a magnet and so did some of the people. She moved Jesus over a little Native American girl. The girl didn't have a magnet. The teacher said "That was too bad, but no missionary ever got to her to tell her about Jesus." I left that church that day and never went back. That was when I crossed Christianity off the list of potentially right religions. It stayed crossed off for over twenty years. I knew in my heart, with the conscience that God gave me, that condemning that little Indian girl, who was as good as she knew how to be, to eternal punishment in Hell was wrong. I knew that God was good and could not do something wrong and unjust. I knew they weren't talking about the one true God in that church.

A few months ago, one of the elders in my church gave a sermon, and in it he said something that just didn't sit right with me. We talked about it later and he explained what to do if certain passages in the Bible do not make sense because they contradict other passages. He said the Bible is the word of God and cannot contradict itself. If you just pick a verse here and a verse there, you'll get things that seem to contradict. You have to look at the whole Bible, and you have to understand the time and place and culture in which it was written. Most importantly, you have to know God and know His nature. God put it in each of us to recognize Him when we see Him. If a verse contradicts the nature of God, and the Bible is not wrong, then we must be wrong in how we are reading it.

God is good and just and definitely not a fan of legalism. I believe He leans more to the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of it. Especially since He is not limited to the fallible English language as we are. So, to answer your question, I say, look to what you know of the nature of God. You will find goodness and righteousness. What is the good and right way to deal with people who love and serve God, but only know Him by a different name?

< usual disclaimer - I am not a Biblical scholar. This is my personal opinion. Take it or leave it as you see fit.>

Be well,
~A

 

[Desert Rat]

Lisa Does the question or the answer to the question change anything? My greatest fear is that someone does not get to heaven because of me not telling or showing them who Jesus is, or not asking the Lord for their salvation. What can I do to change the number of saved people.

 

[HyOnLyph]

Lisa Does the question or the answer to the question change anything? My greatest fear is that someone does not get to heaven because of me not telling or showing them who Jesus is, or not asking the Lord for their salvation. What can I do to change the number of saved people.

Yes, I totally undestand that type of fear. Although I do think it's a hard way to live and a burden we're not called to carry. I think we can trust God to orchestrate things in a peaceful, loving way that allows us to be at peace... without fear.

 

[Saintscruiser]

Lady L, all I have to give an answer is Scripture. You have a big heart, and are kind hearted towards people. God gave you a command - To go into all the world and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's not your job to convict the sinner's heart....that is the Holy Spirit's job. But then, people have a choice to accept or not. You do your part, the Holy Spirit does His part, and the person makes the decision. It isn't always pretty, and it doesn't always have a good ending. Jesus said that the only way to the Father is through the Son. Period. That's rather plain. The True Name of God's Son is Jesus Christ......not budda, mohammed, clem cadiddlehopper, john smith, ellen white or any other person who is still dead where they were buried. There is no such thing as a 'holy cow,' either. The p.o.p. always attacks Christianity.....yeah, it's okay to teach islam in school, but you can't teach about Christianity. Why? Because the p.o.p. already has everyone else. He only attacks the REAL RELIGION. This sort of reminds me of when John's mom asked if John can sit next to Jesus in Glory. The other disciples kind of got indignant and Jesus basically said, "What is it to you?" Lady L, it's not your job to worry about whether other people (that you don't have control over) are righteous or not. That's Jesus' job. You do, however, have control over yourself.

Jesus' sacrifice even covered Judas' sins, even though Judas wasn't a true disciple. But, Judas had a choice to accept Jesus or not. I've always been told that if God knows there is one soul in deepest, darked Mississippi, He would get a missionary or preacher to that person. He knows who will and who won't accept Jesus. He is all knowing.....why wouldn't He know? God would NEVER allow a soul to perish that would accept Jesus. NEVER.

 

[blondeambition3]

Lisa, I agree wholly with every post made previously in response.

HyOnLyph spake this truth:

If one is judged according to grace, they are found righteous. Christ's righteousness covers all of their sin. Grace is applied when one believes in the gift of Christ. That Christ paid the price for all of our sins. etc etc. If one is truly a believer in Jesus, then they are found righteous.

Desert Rat captured another truth with this:

Sin separates us all from God the blood washes sin away without the blood access is denied. So put on your armor pick up weapon (sword) and shoot some well aimed prayers

We are found righteous only through the cleansing blood of Christ and because of what He accomplished on the cross. We stay in a right relationship with Christ through continual fellowship with Him and obedience to Him. His Love transforms us and His Love shining through us transforms us into being like Him. We're to walk in His Love (to all people, at all times, unconditionally) and draw them to Him. We witness, He fixes. (If any thing needs fixed). We're to love only and leave the 'judgement' part to God.

Many people profess they love God and are very good to their neighbors... this alone does not count for righteousness.

Hy said it perfectly. "If one is truly a believer in Jesus, then they are found righteous"

 

[LisaLisa]

It's 6:00 in the morning, and I'm just getting started on my coffee........so bear with me while I try to put the thoughts into words and attempt to make some sense.

Jesus said "nobody comes to the father except through me". We also know that Jesus is the judge and the mediator between people and the Father.

Now I take that verse to mean that Jesus decides who goes to heaven and who doesn't, you have to go through Him to get to the Father. He's the gatekeeper, and He decides who goes in and who doesn't. That authority has been given to Him.

Jesus also said that the most important thing to Him is to love God with your whole heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. These are His guidelines to measure who is going to make it and who isn't.

Jesus also said "If you love me, you will keep my commandments"........see above. So keeping His commandments, to Him, shows that you love Him.

Now here's where it gets tricky for me. The modern day churches aren't keeping His commandments. The majority of people who call themselves christians these days, do not keep His commandments. They believe in Jesus, but they don't "follow" Him by doing what He said.

Is belief in Jesus good enough? I don't know, you tell me after reading the letters to the churches in revelation. They were believers, and it appears that Jesus gave them an F grade on their report card. Only one, the church of philadelphia got a good review. So even back then, the majority of christians were doing it wrong!

If you look at this deeper, much sin is actually showing a lack of love for yourself, God, or your neighbor. So, what does it all boil down to? LOVE! The whole message is about LOVE! Even Jesus coming here was about LOVE. Forgiveness of our sins is a result of LOVE! Why did Jesus teach against the Pharasees? Because they were full of hate, judgment, rules, pride and not love! It all boils down to love and the Bible even tells us that when it says "God is Love". If you follow God, you will practice Love........the love will be the evidence of your faith in God. The whole point of the Gospels is Love! That's what Jesus is looking for, people who follow Him the way He said that they should, by showing love to all people.

I believe this is why He said the road is narrow and few will find it because alot of christians I think don't fully think about or comprehend that Christianity is supposed to be about LOVE! Not just love between eachother, but love for the whole world, including the people who hate us. And that love has to be real, not phony.

So, God is Love. Jesus preached Love, and He also said that He would decide who gets to the father. So, if you call yourself a christian, but have no love, will you be found worthy by Jesus when He comes? God is a reader of hearts, He knows who loves Him and who doesn't, and those who love Him follow His commandments.

Well, Jesus answered that question for us, He said "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'

So it appears to me that religious labels don't matter to Jesus, it's what's inside your heart, and what you do that matters, not what you call yourself because He sees everything that you say, do and think.

So flip that around for a second........what about the jew or hindu who really does love God and lives his life by showing love to others? Isn't that person actually doing what Jesus said? How can anyone say that this person will be found unworthy when they are doing what Jesus taught?

I dont know if any of this makes sense, it's random thoughts that come into my mind, and concepts that come into my mind that I try and form into words and paragraphs, but sometimes don't come out right.

 

[LisaLisa]

1 John 4:8 says "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

 

[trukinlady]

It's 6:00 in the morning, and I'm just getting started on my coffee........so bear with me while I try to put the thoughts into words and attempt to make some sense.

Jesus said "nobody comes to the father except through me". We also know that Jesus is the judge and the mediator between people and the Father.

Now I take that verse to mean that Jesus decides who goes to heaven and who doesn't, you have to go through Him to get to the Father. He's the gatekeeper, and He decides who goes in and who doesn't. That authority has been given to Him.

Jesus also said that the most important thing to Him is to love God with your whole heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. These are His guidelines to measure who is going to make it and who isn't.

Jesus also said "If you love me, you will keep my commandments"........see above. So keeping His commandments, to Him, shows that you love Him.

Now here's where it gets tricky for me. The modern day churches aren't keeping His commandments. The majority of people who call themselves christians these days, do not keep His commandments. They believe in Jesus, but they don't "follow" Him by doing what He said.

Is belief in Jesus good enough? I don't know, you tell me after reading the letters to the churches in revelation. They were believers, and it appears that Jesus gave them an F grade on their report card. Only one, the church of philadelphia got a good review. So even back then, the majority of christians were doing it wrong!

If you look at this deeper, much sin is actually showing a lack of love for yourself, God, or your neighbor. So, what does it all boil down to? LOVE! The whole message is about LOVE! Even Jesus coming here was about LOVE. Forgiveness of our sins is a result of LOVE! Why did Jesus teach against the Pharasees? Because they were full of hate, judgment, rules, pride and not love! It all boils down to love and the Bible even tells us that when it says "God is Love". If you follow God, you will practice Love........the love will be the evidence of your faith in God. The whole point of the Gospels is Love! That's what Jesus is looking for, people who follow Him the way He said that they should, by showing love to all people.

I believe this is why He said the road is narrow and few will find it because alot of christians I think don't fully think about or comprehend that Christianity is supposed to be about LOVE! Not just love between eachother, but love for the whole world, including the people who hate us. And that love has to be real, not phony.

So, God is Love. Jesus preached Love, and He also said that He would decide who gets to the father. So, if you call yourself a christian, but have no love, will you be found worthy by Jesus when He comes? God is a reader of hearts, He knows who loves Him and who doesn't, and those who love Him follow His commandments.

Well, Jesus answered that question for us, He said "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'

So it appears to me that religious labels don't matter to Jesus, it's what's inside your heart, and what you do that matters, not what you call yourself because He sees everything that you say, do and think.

So flip that around for a second........what about the jew or hindu who really does love God and lives his life by showing love to others? Isn't that person actually doing what Jesus said? How can anyone say that this person will be found unworthy when they are doing what Jesus taught?

I dont know if any of this makes sense, it's random thoughts that come into my mind, and concepts that come into my mind that I try and form into words and paragraphs, but sometimes don't come out right.

When I first read this, I was reminded of your thread with the testimony of the Muslim man in prison who came to know God--without anyone witnessing to him, or showing him Bible Scriptures. God revealed to this man who He is, and provided him with a Bible. He was shown God's truth in His Word, and accepted Jesus as his Savior.
Until then, all he had known was Allah, and Islam. But God, in His infinite wisdom, made a way--His way--for this man's salvation; to know Him, and only Him. I believe without question He does this throughout the world.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/christian-vapers/158038-awesome-video.html

Love is a commandment given by God, which should be obeyed without question, but love by itself will not save a person's soul. Only by accepting Jesus as Savior will that be accomplished.

His Word is very clear about how to become born again:
1 Timothy 2:5
John 14:6
Romans 3:19-23
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 10:9-10
Romans 6:23
Philippians 2:12-13
Proverbs 12:28

Maybe we ourselves don't need the reminders of Scriptures, but we are also here to bear witness of His salvation and forgiveness to the lost—if they want to receive Him.

It is also our responsibility to see that we present His Word as it is--without compromise. Not all roads lead to God. He is the great I AM, the Alpha and Omega. He has only one Name-God. He makes a way for the lost to find Him:

John 6:44-45
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught by God.” (Isaiah 54:13)
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

 

[LisaLisa]

When I first read this, I was reminded of your thread with the testimony of the Muslim man in prison who came to know God--without anyone witnessing to him, or showing him Bible Scriptures. God revealed to this man who He is, and provided him with a Bible. He was shown God's truth in His Word, and accepted Jesus as his Savior.
Until then, all he had known was Allah, and Islam. But God, in His infinite wisdom, made a way--His way--for this man's salvation; to know Him, and only Him. I believe without question He does this throughout the world.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/christian-vapers/158038-awesome-video.html

Love is a commandment given by God, which should be obeyed without question, but love by itself will not save a person's soul. Only by accepting Jesus as Savior will that be accomplished.

His Word is very clear about how to become born again:
1 Timothy 2:5
John 14:6
Romans 3:19-23
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 10:9-10
Romans 6:23
Philippians 2:12-13
Proverbs 12:28

Maybe we ourselves don't need the reminders of Scriptures, but we are also here to bear witness of His salvation and forgiveness to the lost—if they want to receive Him.

It is also our responsibility to see that we present His Word as it is--without compromise. Not all roads lead to God. He is the great I AM, the Alpha and Omega. He has only one Name-God. He makes a way for the lost to find Him:

John 6:44-45
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught by God.” (Isaiah 54:13)
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

I think you're missing the bigger point tho, God is Love, Jesus is Love. To accept Jesus as your savior, and follow Him and have Him living in your heart, is taking on and taking in His Love.

Love is the basis for the entire thing because God IS Love! If you don't practice love, then you don't know Him. This was the entire message that Jesus Himself taught, but it's the biggest point that most christians miss! If you call yourself a Christian and you don't practice love, your label is worthless, its fake, it has no value at all.

You see what I"m getting at?

 

[LisaLisa]

Luke 10:25-37 (New International Version)

The Parable of the Good Samaritan

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind ; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.”

“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[trukinlady]

I think you're missing the bigger point tho, God is Love, Jesus is Love. To accept Jesus as your savior, and follow Him and have Him living in your heart, is taking on and taking in His Love.

Love is the basis for the entire thing because God IS Love! If you don't practice love, then you don't know Him. This was the entire message that Jesus Himself taught, but it's the biggest point that most christians miss! If you call yourself a Christian and you don't practice love, your label is worthless, its fake, it has no value at all.

You see what I"m getting at?

Yes, I do. Without His love, Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

I believe because Jesus loved His Father, he was obedient unto death.
Matthew 26:36-39
36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.”
37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.
38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”
39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”

John 15:9-17
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

1 Corinthians 13:1-13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Sadly, as you said, there are Christians who completely miss the point. God knows our hearts, and by whatever name the "unloving" Christians call themselves, ultimately they will have to stand accountable to Him on the Day of Judgement. Then they will discover if their love was just a label, or truly in their heart.

I believe as each Christian grows in their faith, and maturity in the Lord, their capacity for love, and their actions, should reflect their growth in Christ. Just as a baby grows in love and understanding into an adult, so should we, in Christ. It is our daily walk with Him that enables us to grow spiritually. But we have to seek Him with an open heart, and mind, asking for His guidance, and wisdom. There are millions of us in different stages of growth, but we are all His children.

 

[HyOnLyph]

Hi Lisa,
There's been a lot said and a lot of scripture quoted... I'm not going to try to create a huge lengthy post but if I may, there are a few things i'd like to address. I hope it helps. ( edit... I guess I failed at the "not creating a lengthy post"
I've condensed your post for clarity's sake.
In one of your posts you said.

Jesus said "nobody comes to the father except through me". We also know that Jesus is the judge and the mediator between people and the Father.... Now I take that verse to mean that Jesus decides who goes to heaven and who doesn't, you have to go through Him to get to the Father. He's the gatekeeper, and He decides who goes in and who doesn't. That authority has been given to Him.

I think there might be a different way of looking at this. When Jesus said "noone comes to the Father except by me", I think it is consistent with the the words of Jesus; "I am the way, the truth and the life" and "...if any man here's my voice and opens the door".... Meaning not so much that he picks and chooses, but more that he is the door, the pathway. As mediator, he represents whomever opens the door. He's not the gatekeeper per se. He is the path.

Jesus also said that the most important thing to Him is to love God with your whole heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. These are His guidelines to measure who is going to make it and who isn't.

Actually, not quite accurate. Love is not the guideline to measure who is going to make it... especially not OUR love. Jesus said that the way is open to those who believe. And it is about God's love, not ours. It is our acceptance of God's love through the sacrifice of Jesus. Now... our expression of love is the fruit of what we believe and out connection to God. More about that in a minute.

Jesus also said "If you love me, you will keep my commandments"........see above. So keeping His commandments, to Him, shows that you love Him.

again... this is an expression of our faith.. not a condition of our salvation.

Now here's where it gets tricky for me. The modern day churches aren't keeping His commandments. The majority of people who call themselves christians these days, do not keep His commandments. They believe in Jesus, but they don't "follow" Him by doing what He said.

You are correct... this is tricky. But it is separate from salvation. We can't know what is in a persons heart. We can't be the judges. First, because we each has a different definition of what love is supposed to look like. I'm sure most of us has some common definitions but many don't. (we have had to kick a few women out of our house before... we want the best for them but they are not ready to receive it and they jeopardize the rest of the ladies. For us, it is truly an act of love. Love that protects the rest of the ladies and love that sets the individual back on the path that will eventually lead them to wake up.) There are many people who "walk the walk" and appear to be good Christians but for all of the wrong reasons. And there are many people to appear to be horrible Christians and yet their fear and self-image is so poor that they are doing the very best they know how with the tools they have. And most people fall somewhere in between. Yes, we are known by our love. But our demonstration of love may be the best we can do at the time. Hopefully we grow.

Is belief in Jesus good enough? I don't know, you tell me after reading the letters to the churches in revelation. They were believers, and it appears that Jesus gave them an F grade on their report card. Only one, the church of philadelphia got a good review. So even back then, the majority of christians were doing it wrong!

True but again has nothing to do with salvation. It was a warning that IF they didn't change, they were in jeopardy of removal of the "candlestick". Many believe that the candlestick is a representation of the Holy Spirit within the group. Some argue that it means a loss of salvation. Others not. It is open for question. Most of Paul's epistles were written to churches that needed correction. Many were really screwing up. Getting drunk during communion, sex as acts of worship etc. Pretty discusting and yet they were still part of the church.

If you look at this deeper, much sin is actually showing a lack of love for yourself, God, or your neighbor. So, what does it all boil down to? LOVE! The whole message is about LOVE! Even Jesus coming here was about LOVE. Forgiveness of our sins is a result of LOVE! Why did Jesus teach against the Pharasees? Because they were full of hate, judgment, rules, pride and not love! It all boils down to love and the Bible even tells us that when it says "God is Love". If you follow God, you will practice Love........the love will be the evidence of your faith in God. The whole point of the Gospels is Love! That's what Jesus is looking for, people who follow Him the way He said that they should, by showing love to all people.

for the sake of space, I won't quote the whole thing... you are correct. And I really like your concept of sin being a lack of love for one's self. I've often said "We sin because we are afraid not to.". But that's a different discussion. BUT There is a difference between living the life and being saved. Salvation comes from believing in Christ, believing that he is God's act of love toward us... a supreme sacrifice for us and accepting that gift. Living the life is about us responding to that love by allowing the fruit of love to grow in/on us. Some make it as far as believing... that is as open as they get. They build their walls to protect themselves because they are not able to trust God and overcome their own fears. Others live a life of complete surrender to and appreciation of God's love. Still others live a life of transition, taking the bricks out of our walls, one at a time, little by little, growing in our ability to love and accept love. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

So it appears to me that religious labels don't matter to Jesus, it's what's inside your heart, and what you do that matters, not what you call yourself because He sees everything that you say, do and think.
So flip that around for a second........what about the jew or hindu who really does love God and lives his life by showing love to others? Isn't that person actually doing what Jesus said? How can anyone say that this person will be found unworthy when they are doing what Jesus taught?

The Bible tells us that belief resides in the heart. I think the heart is some combination/connection between the spirit, soul and the mind and yet not only one or the other. "For with the heart man believes..." So it is a matter of the belief of the heart. And you are correct that it doesn't matter what religious names we place on people... BUT what does matter is the belief. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father except by me." Therefore, all of the other religions that may acknowledge God or god, but not the sacrifice of Christ will be found wanting. Wrong path.... not the Way or the Truth or the Life.

Many of us can't accept that because we can't see a loving God punishing people for all eternity. There are those who think that the unbeliever will eventually come to a place of belief, repentance and restoration to God... that God's love and the sacrifice of Jesus is so great that it covers ALL.... but if they are correct, for the unbeliever, it's still a rough way to get back on the path. But it is possibly an even greater expression of God's love than we first thought.

 

[Desert Rat]

Lisa The word love in the Greek takes on several meanings and in English those meanings are lost. Take John 21:15 Simon son of Johna do you love (agape) Me more than these? He said to Him, "Yes Lord; you know that I love (phileo) You." Two different meanings agape is unconditional phileo brotherly both in English are translated love. Now go to Galatians 5:22 the fruit of the Holly Spirit is love (agape). The Holly Spirit is only available to those who have salvation. You can love (phileo) and truly love your fellow man, but to love (agape) that Is only available to the saved.

 

[Desert Rat]

Lisa; To preface my last post. I loved my wife deeply, but after we got saved my love for her changed to a whole different level a level that was previously not available to me.

 

[HyOnLyph]

regarding your comment...

....The Holly Spirit is only available to those who have salvation. You can love (phileo) and truly love your fellow man, but to love (agape) that Is only available to the saved.

I think it's important to clarify.... I guess it depends on what you mean by available... the Holy Spirit is testifying and speaking to everyone, all of the time. It is the Spirit who woos us to Christ even before we believe. The Holy Spirit is constantly speaking Truth to everyone's heart... some chose to acknowledge it... others see it in part but don't know where it comes from and mistakenly build their own religion around it... others ignore it altogether.

Based on the actual definition of agape, it is not just a God love. It is an unselfish love expecting nothing in return. God's love is a demonstration of agape but it is not exclusive to it. It is not exclusive to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit nor to the saved alone.

 

[LisaLisa]

I don't think I explained my point very well. I know the concept I have in my mind, but trying to put it into words is really hard because it's scattered random thoughts that I"m trying to put together and then explain. Not easy to do with an ADD brain! LOL!

Ok, let me try and explain it this way. I had more thoughts as I was lying in bed thinking this afternoon. (No, I dont' try and think about this stuff, it just happens)

God is love, so love is God, or the essence of God. I believe light is also God's essence. Maybe essence isn't the right word, but I can't think of another one.

Absence from God is also absence of love and light. The Bible tells us this when it calls evil darkness and it calls God light.

I believe that hell is absence of God, and His love and light and what you have left is darkness and evil, where satan and his demons reside, which is outside of the Kingdom of God.

So, hell is a place where there is no love because it's cut off from God and His love and light because God is the source of love and light. Without Him, these 2 things do not exist.

Then I had this thought, "Where there is no God, there is no love. Where there is no love, there is no God". I thought, WOW! That's right because God is Love! It's right there in the bible and the words are interchangeable because God is love! We were made in His image, meaning we were made with the ability to love. To focus on love is to focus on God. All of God's qualities stem from love.....compassion, forgiveness, mercy, generosity, hospitality........and so on. The root of all these things is love. The 10 commandments focus on love if you think about it. Jesus came here out of love. The whole thing is about love, that is the whole point!

But so many christians do not focus on love, they focus on doctrine and details, when the most important thing is to Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[LisaLisa]

And yes, belief in Jesus and salvation is key, that's just the starting point. To follow Him, is to focus on love because that's what He said!