Disappointing Epiphany I Just Had (I Decided to do Some Math)...Nowhere Near an Analog

[crazyfl3x]

EDIT: This post has NOTHING to do with Eissenburg's study. Everything you'll read below is based on the assumption that vaping has a 100% absorption rate (which it probably doesn't), but that isn't the point. Read on (and carefully) to understand.

Alright, I'm vaping on a Volcano e-Cig (L88B). I really enjoy it now that I've got Halo Menthol Ice e-juice and a PTB Modded Cartridge (my full review is here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-review-first-dissatisfied-sort-now-love.html )

I definitely won't be looking back to analogs.

Here is the thing though, the Halo juice I ordered is 12mg. This is because I thought anything higher than that was going to make me feel ill, as the pre-filled cartridges I got with my e-cig seemed to make me feel a bit...odd, and they were 16mg in strength.

As it turns out, I think they made me feel strange because I was either withdrawing from nicotine, or because they were inferior in quality when compared to the Halo juice (as the Halo juice doesn't produce any strange feelings at all...but it also hasn't gotten me any real "nic buzz" either. Keep in mind I haven't had an analog for almost 8 days now)

I began refilling my cartridges myself once my Halo came in. The dropper that comes in the top of the Halo bottle is marked off in 0.25ml markings, all the way up to 1.0ml .

A completely empty cartridge (no filling, no nothing...completely empty) holds 0.25ml of juice. Now I obviously can't vape from a totally empty cartridge.

WITH filling, it only holds about 0.15ml of juice

Now, here is the disappointing part that I just figured out (because it's the first time I ever put any thought into it):

1 (ml of juice)
------- = 6.66 (number of cartridge fills per 1ml)
0.15 (how many ml of juice a cart. holds)


Now, divide 12 (as that is how many mg of nicotine there are in that 1ml we just divided) by the 6.66

12
------- = 1.80mg of nicotine per 0.15ml of e-juice
6.66


Now, I vape for roughly 6 minutes at a time, and then I put it down (6 minutes is roughly about how long it used to take me to have an analog). I had to put a time frame on it, otherwise I'd never set the thing down.

Now, that one cartridge lasts me about 5 "sessions"

So:

1.80 (mg of nicotine in my filled cartridge)
--------- = 0.36 mg of nicotine PER SESSION!!
5 (number of sessions per cartridge)

That means that even if the absorption rate for vaping were 100% (and it is very likely that it isn't), I'd still only be getting about one fourth of the nicotine I was getting from a regular analog....I'd have to be vaping 48mg juice for one of my sessions to be equivalent to a regular smoke!!!!

In other words, I'm getting hardly any nicotine at all at my current level of juice.

I've got to order new stuff

 

[crazyfl3x]

Even with that being the case, the upside is that I still haven't had an analog since getting my Volcano...pretty cool.

 

[tarheeldan]

Nice post! Following your math was fun I agree on getting stronger stuff, I just ordered some 48 and some same-flavored 0 so that I can mix up 3 bottles: 36, 24, and 0 so that I can hit the 36 in the morning and when I need a jolt, the 24 most of the time, and the 0 for the last couple hours before bed. Kinda surprised you were able to keep it to 6min sessions though...or did the sessions start to get closer and closer together? I feel like my body is good at telling me if it's gotten enough nic or not.

EDIT: and congrats on no analogs!

 

[crazyfl3x]

Nice post! Following your math was fun

I can assure you, it would have been a lot more entertaining for you had you actually been here while I was doing it, haha. Thanks though.

I agree on getting stronger stuff, I just ordered some 48 and some same-flavored 0 so that I can mix up 3 bottles: 36, 24, and 0 so that I can hit the 36 in the morning and when I need a jolt, the 24 most of the time, and the 0 for the last couple hours before bed.

That, is an excellent idea! I don't feel like mixing my own, but ordering different amounts for different times of the day/times of need...very good idea, thanks for that too!

Kinda surprised you were able to keep it to 6min sessions though...or did the sessions start to get closer and closer together? I feel like my body is good at telling me if it's gotten enough nic or not.

Well, here is the thing...I never enjoyed smoking regular cigarettes (and I've been smoking since I was 16 years old). I never exhaled through my nose, so as to avoid the taste. I never really liked the smell (on my hands or my clothes...and I could always smell it). I always hated the feel of smoke on the back of my throat during inhalation. I can fully admit that I've been smoking all these years because of:

Addiction
Social triggers
Makes me feel "comfortable" when I'm in situations I'm uncomfortable in

I've never smoked because I liked it. So I always smoked as fast as I could, and didn't want to "prolong" the experience.

The reason I'm able to "vape" for such short periods of times is probably because of the mental "stigma" I have tied to smoking.

EDIT: and congrats on no analogs!

Thanks!!!

 

[Trixie]

I just re-ordered from Halo, and this time I reduced my order from 18 mg. to 12 mg. because oddly I found that with the Halo juice I seemed to feel the nicotine more than I was feeling it with other brands.
My other liquids are 24 mg., but for some reason the Halo tends to hit me quicker and more completely than the rest. Wonder if anyone else found this to be the case with Halo.

 

[Kilroy]

Eisenberg 2010, and other studies bear that out. The effective transference of nicotine is lower for the e-cig than we would expect. But we're really good at adapting to the environment. Just keep on vaping.

 

[deftdrummer1]

Even with that being the case, the upside is that I still haven't had an analog since getting my Volcano...pretty cool.

That says it all right there. You can't put a price on your health. Even if 12ml of juice cost 3x as much as a traditional pack of cigarettes, then it would be worth it.

Heck, even if you used 5 times the amount of nicotine to get that "feeling" of an analog cigarette through your e-juice, then it'd be worth it. Nicotine is found naturally in over 300 varieties of plants.

The L.D. 50 of nicotine in humans ranges between 40-60mg when fully absorbed, which can never happen from smoking because of the inefficiencies inherent with the delivery method as OP stated.

Speaking in terms of delivery efficiency, absorption through the lungs is second only to intravenous injection. The most common forms of nicotine overdose occur when someone smokes multiple cigarettes while concurrently attempting nicotine cessation solutions.

 

[ChipCurtis]

I think the fact that you're getting just the nic and not all the 4000 chemicals found in an analog definitely makes a difference. When I first started vaping I could really feel the nic rush even from the poor overpriced e-cig that I started out with. It made me feel a little nauseous at times. During my first week of quitting analogs, I would get edgy at times, a little off center, kind of irritated and hyper-active. Then I began to settle into it. I never though it was less nic that was doing it, I thought it was the loss of all the other addictive or carcinogenic chemicals in the analog.

But if it's true that I'm getting less nic, then I see that as a great thing. Before Dr. Eissenberg's study, I was pretty sure I was getting plenty of nic. My strongest liquid is 36mg and weakest is 12mg. I have no 0-nic liquids. When I felt I needed a strong nic vape, I would use 36mg uncut. Normally I cut my liquids with about 25% VG.

 

[deftdrummer1]

Please don't even reference the VCU and Mr. Thomas Eissenberg's findings. It is well documented that the Virginia Commonwealth University is funded and supported by Philip Morris. Of course they are going to make "findings" such as that they persuade people into thinking e-cigarettes are insufficient when compared to analogues. It's called a return on investment, and PM is about to lose it big time due to our lovely emerging technologies.

 

[crazyfl3x]

For those of you who didn't feel like doing the math for what I referenced in my last sentence (I'd have to vape 48mg juice) here it is:

Well, it's actually very simple. Keep everything else in my example the same, and all you have to do is multiply the final outcome by 4.

So my math figured out that I'm only getting 0.36mg of nicotine per session.

Bump it up to 48mg juice and I'd be getting 1.44mg of nicotine per session...if I were vaping it straight!!

 

[crazyfl3x]

To everybody referencing Eissenburg's study...that's a whole other ballpark.

That study is referencing absorption rates of nicotine. That study says that body absorbs 0 (or nearly 0) nicotine from vaping.

That's not what I'm talking about.

All the math I did in this post, and the final outcome of each of my sessions only providing me with 0.36mg of nicotine is assuming a 100% absorption rate!

 

[crazyfl3x]

That says it all right there. You can't put a price on your health. Even if 12ml of juice cost 3x as much as a traditional pack of cigarettes, then it would be worth it.

Very very true!!

 

[Kilroy]

deftdrummer1, Tom Eisenberg rocks. He is on our side, as far as a non-smoker can be. The study showed, what it showed. Dr. E is here, conversing, learning and will design more provocative studies. Tom Eisenberg stands out as one of the few who really wants to know the truth. He knows more today than he did yesterday and is willing to admit that.

 

[Kilroy]

To everybody referencing Eissenburg's study...that's a whole other ballpark.

That study is referencing absorption rates of nicotine. That study says that body absorbs 0 (or nearly 0) nicotine from vaping.

That's not what I'm talking about.

All the math I did in this post, and the final outcome of each of my sessions only providing me with 0.36mg of nicotine is assuming a 100% absorption rate!

We both know that we're getting it. If you'd like a cotinine test to prove that pm me and I'll send you one.

 

[68stang]

somebody else actually got a blood test (only vaping not smoking) And they did have plenty of NIC in there blood. Not as much as smoking but YES they did have plenty. So absorption of 0 is false. I don't know where that thread is, but it was nice to see an actual blood test (also the BAD Stuff was WAY LESS then a smoker in his blood, more good news) If anybody remembers that post share it here!

 

[Kilroy]

somebody else actually got a blood test (only vaping not smoking) And they did have plenty of NIC in there blood. Not as much as smoking but YES they did have plenty. So absorption of 0 is false. I don't know where that thread is, but it was nice to see an actual blood test (also the BAD Stuff was WAY LESS then a smoker in his blood, more good news) If anybody remembers that post share it here!

Yeah, definitely positive here. But I don't take 10 puffs at 30 second intervals. I'm a little more like a fog machine.

 

[crazyfl3x]

We both know that we're getting it. If you'd like a cotinine test to prove that pm me and I'll send you one.

somebody else actually got a blood test (only vaping not smoking) And they did have plenty of NIC in there blood. Not as much as smoking but YES they did have plenty. So absorption of 0 is false. I don't know where that thread is, but it was nice to see an actual blood test (also the BAD Stuff was WAY LESS then a smoker in his blood, more good news) If anybody remembers that post share it here!

I'm not sure how this thread was so badly misunderstood. I'm not saying no nicotine is absorbed. I don't need to take a test to prove to myself that nicotine is absorbed from an e-Cig.

I believe that nicotine is absorbed (I don't think it's 100%, but I do think it is being absorbed).

The purpose of this thread was to clearly outline how very little nicotine there is to begin with in my cartridges, and to shine some light on how little nicotine there might be in your carts.

My cartridges hold 0.15ml of juice.

At 12mg of nicotine per ml, that is 1.80mg of nicotine for the whole cartridge! (pre-vape!)

That cartridge lasts me 5 "vaping sessions". That means that I can only expect to inhale 0.36mg of nicotine into my lungs (regardless of absorption rate! only 0.36mg of nicotine is going into my lungs per session!!)

Now, an analog causes the body to absorb roughly 1.0 - 1.4 mg of nicotine (for ONE!)

My WHOLE CARTRIDGE only has 1.80mg of nicotine in it! I don't finish my whole cartridge all at once. It lasts me 5 "sessions"!

 

[Kilroy]

Sorry for misinterpreting you.

 

[crazyfl3x]

Sorry for misinterpreting you.

No problem man, sorry if I just sounded like a jerk

I just didn't want to see this thread turn into a 5 page discussion on nicotine absorption (and if other people are anything like me, and only read the first and then the last couple posts, I figured that would probably happen if I didn't say something).

 

[tarheeldan]

fl3x, you mentioned you felt a stigma surrounding smoking - just curious if you feel that to the same degree with vaping, given that the health risks are prolly mad orders of magnitude lower? I was thinking about that because I was over at some non-smoker friend's place last night watching the olympics and drinking beer. They let me vape in their home and thought it was really cool, but a small part of me still felt like I was (relatively) a "bad boy" lol.

Anyway, hope a higher strength juice helps you get your fix within the length of sessions you're accustomed to - I'm hoping I can step away from the PV more often once I mix up that 36. As a budding economist, it's all about efficiency and optimal allocation of resources.