do LR attys kill ego batteries?

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BlackMetalBuick

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Interesting test results in that link. Motivated me to bust out my meter for my Inferno. 1000mAh battery hovered around 3.4v and the 650mAh while attached to the passthrough got closer to 3.6v. Maybe a true 3.7v box mod will be my next buy though.

As for the subject of the thread, I've been using a LR 306 on my Inferno for a few weeks now and haven't had any troubles.
 

CraigHB

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Really? And where exactly did you get that number from?

Digital voltmeters are not designed to accurately calculate the equivalent DC voltage of non-constant voltages. What you get is an inaccurate average of the sampled voltages. I wanted to know what the eGo's output looked like so I put a load on it and probed it with my oscilloscope. Based on the rectangular waveform I saw, I estimated the RMS power would be equivalent to around 3.5V DC. I didn't take the time to make an exact calculation because I just wanted to see what the output looks like.

You can compare for yourself. Discharge a mod PV to about 3.5V loaded and you'll find it puts out power similar to an eGo. If the eGo only put out the equivalent of 3.2V, the performance would be pretty bad.

In any case, the point stands. You'll get more power delivery with a mod PV. Especially since larger cell batts will deliver somewhat more than 3.7V to the load through most of the discharge cycle. I think the the eGo uses a regulated output for a couple reasons, the power delivery stays constant and it makes the battery run longer on a charge because it's not providing as much power. Personally, I'd rather have the power.
 
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Scottbee

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Digital voltmeters are not designed to accurately calculate the equivalent DC voltage of non-constant voltages.

Actually... the Fluke "true RMS" meters will give you exceptionally good results if you know how to use them (and are working within a reasonable frequency range). But in order to get the "true" result (RMS voltage), you need to get the "DC bias" portion (DC mean voltage) of the waveform.. and then the AC RMS component.... square each.. sum, then SQRT. It's a two-step process. Some of their higher-end units (the 289 for example) have an "AC+DC" function..... which will do the dirty work for you and give you good numbers in a single pass.

If you looked at the linked thread you will see that we now have some (decent) waveforms from the legacy 510/eGo controller and from the "latest" revisions (900mAH, USB). RMS voltage (not power) readings included.
 

Scottbee

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I estimated the RMS power would be equivalent to around 3.5V DC. I didn't take the time to make an exact calculation because I just wanted to see what the output looks like.

Ummmm.. OK. It's just that earlier you said "puts the equivalent of about 3.4V, probably lower with an LR atty because it doesn't handle the load very well" and I was trying to figure out where the 3.4V came from.... I'm also interested in your assertion that it doesn't handle the 1.5Ω load "very well". Care to elaborate?
 

AttyPops

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I love this thread..... it is now one of my new favorite threads..... anyway:

A few thoughts.

1) It's really about power dissipation and MOSFETs. So design/manufacturing changes can effect the lifetime of the unit. More robust components = better for LR stuff. Yes... agree with above... heat is therefore a major issue. But so are component ratings. Hope we see some changes in PCB components....

2) lol. Most of the vendor websites state not to use LR atties on < 650 mAh batteries. Now, I understand that in once sense, because it's a little like shooting yourself in the foot; they don't last long even at standard ohms. The other part is funny though... how many amps can that little battery actually put out????? Hmmmm? Sure, you stress the battery, but you probably don't get to the 2+ amps anyway at 1.5 ohms. A bigger battery puts out more amps, so the MOSFETs fry instead. Catch 22. No lifetime or no mosfet. Pick one.

3) OTOH, if you don't over-vape em, and know the risks, some people love the LRs on eGo type units. I was like Brad, I just started building mods about 1 month in and never looked back. True 3.7 volts (with or without LR), or 5 volts. They are inexpensive to make/maintain. Meh

You can make a 5 v unit for about $10.00. Set of batteries and a charger $20.00 - $25.00. Extra 14500 pair $10.00. Painless vaping... priceless. Standard atties too. lol.
 
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REGGAEGEEK

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....Some of their higher-end units (the 289 for example) have an "AC+DC" function..... which will do the dirty work for you and give you good numbers in a single pass.

So, for a bit more moola you can get a "I'm serious, it's really TRUE" True RMS Meter.... lol.
 
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CraigHB

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Lots of interesting points brought up here.

True you can get a "good" meter that measures RMS voltage, but for one, they're expensive and most people don't own one. I work with electronics all the time and I don't own one. I just use my scope when working with pulsed outputs. In any case, RMS voltage is not the same as RMS power. With vaping, it's all about the heat so we need to think in terms of power not voltage. My feeling is that with a 3 ohm load, the eGo's PWM output delivers about the same power as a DC voltage around 3.5V. This thread prompted me to a verify my claims with a direct comparison. Using my eGo as a baseline, I adjusted my VV passthru to find the point where vapor output was similar. That point was in the neighborhood of 3.5V. Again, this is with a 3 ohm cartomizer and since we need to think in terms of power, resistance is a factor.

There's always some amount of inefficiency in delivering power to a load. The purely resistive losses can be calculated by multiplying the square of the current with the sum of the internal resistance of the battery, components, and wiring. The higher the current the higher the losses. Comparing a 1.5 ohm load to a 3 ohm load, you'll get four times the power losses in the circuitry. That's why I say that the eGo doesn't handle the load well. It has high resistive losses because of the crappy mosfet, under-gauge circuit boards, and under-gauge wiring.

The eGo battery itself isn't too bad. I tore apart one of my dead battery units to check it out. I calculated a 50 milliohm internal impedance. To give you a comparison, I have a high end 5ah lithium polymer batt I'm using for a project that has a 18 milliohm internal impedance. Just for the hell of it, I did a short test on that eGo battery and it put out 30 amps before it vented.
 

Zen~

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The eGo battery itself isn't too bad.

The only thing too bad about it is that it's housed in a relatively crappy little PV that doesn't perform very well under the kind of load required to produce a current day expectation vape.

10 months ago I can see why people thought it was the bomb... today there are so many superior products that I hardly view the eGo as even remotely relevant.

Times have changed... people in the know expect, and know how to get, higher performance.
 

Scottbee

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True you can get a "good" meter that measures RMS voltage, but for one, they're expensive and most people don't own one. I work with electronics all the time and I don't own one.

The 79 and 179 that I used in the thread can do it via the two step process. They're not too pricey, but I digress.

I just use my scope when working with pulsed outputs. In any case, RMS voltage is not the same as RMS power. With vaping, it's all about the heat so we need to think in terms of power not voltage.

RMS power is pretty much a nonsensical term when it comes to things like "heating". Pavg is what we're after, and Pavg comes from the RMS voltage and resistance (or the RMS current and the RMS voltage). Prms is a fairly well abused term.

There's always some amount of inefficiency in delivering power to a load. The purely resistive losses can be calculated by multiplying the square of the current with the sum of the internal resistance of the battery, components, and wiring. The higher the current the higher the losses. Comparing a 1.5 ohm load to a 3 ohm load, you'll get four times the power losses in the circuitry. That's why I say that the eGo doesn't handle the load well. It has high resistive losses because of the crappy mosfet, under-gauge circuit boards, and under-gauge wiring.

You'll get four times the losses on ANY device.... eGo, ProVAri, Darwin, Chuck... it doesn't matter. So you can't really make that an "eGo" problem. And while I agree that the point wiring is smaller than I'd like to see, the trace sizes on the PCB (power handling) are industry spec, and the Rds(on) of the MOSFET is actually quite good. Within a couple of percentage points of the Vishay units that I use.
 

pico

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I'll ask this here, I can't find a definitive answer with search and it seems related...

My Riva came with 2x2.5ohm attys. I had thought I was rockin' it lo-res because my impression was anything less than 3ohm was low.

I can certainly see that 1.5ohm would be low res. What is the ohm rating where the resistance is considered normal res, low res and high res?
 

Hrtbrkr1965

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Ok Very interesting tech stuff by some very informed people that of course I don't understand! LOL
Ive been reading and reading for weeks here! All this time most everyone says in just about every newby post get an EGO get an EGO! Then I find out the Riva is supposedly just as good but has a bigger battery stock (750 compared to 650) out of the basic starter kit at a way better price and 510 parts are easy to find and reasonably priced so I pulled the trigger on a Riva last night! Was pretty happy with the decision and eagerly waiting for my package to arrive!
So of course I read this thread today and find out if I understand correctly the only dif between this and the Joye510 is a bigger battery? No better or more consistent performance other that battery? Then why are most screaming from the rooftops get an EGO?
I kept hearing tons of vapor and such...hope I didn't just throw my cash out the window here on the choir preaching EGO!
Did I?
 

Zen~

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I'll ask this here, I can't find a definitive answer with search and it seems related...

My Riva came with 2x2.5ohm attys. I had thought I was rockin' it lo-res because my impression was anything less than 3ohm was low.

I can certainly see that 1.5ohm would be low res. What is the ohm rating where the resistance is considered normal res, low res and high res?

The standard resistance for Joye 510 or Riva is 2.5 ohms
 

Zen~

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So of course I read this thread today and find out if I understand correctly the only dif between this and the Joye510 is a bigger battery? No better or more consistent performance other that battery? Then why are most screaming from the rooftops get an EGO?
I kept hearing tons of vapor and such...hope I didn't just throw my cash out the window here on the choir preaching EGO!
Did I?

Not exactly, but kind of... As long as you end up using it you have not wasted the money.

The difference is a longer lasting battery, and due to that, it will vape a bit more consistently. I can easily get as much vapor out of a stock 510 as I can out of a eGo/Riva/fat bat device... I just can't do it as long.
 

NCC

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Haven't read every post in the thread.

The arguments are convincing. I used LR Atomizers on my eGo-types for three or four months before I heard the buzz and didn't have a battery die in that time. However, I was rotating a half dozen batteries, more or less haphazardly. I have 16 new and 4 or 5 in service eGo-types on hand and see no reason to risk premature failure. Soon after I heard the buzz, I ordered an 18650 mod so I could use my LR attys without worry, and use the eGo-types when their smaller scale is handy. With 20+ on hand, they might be the last I'll buy, LOL.
 

Sorrid

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I bought an ego kit back in August and all I have used on the batteries since I've had it are cisco LR 510s and 306s. I passed it on to my father to use the beginning of November and all he has used are the same atties and both of the batteries are still going strong.

Now I do believe that very low LR stuff COULD cause problems with Ego batteries if the user hammers on them and overheats the atty and mosfets in the batteries. Just taking a little care and giving the atty and the battery a little time to cool down every few vapes seems to keep the Ego batteries going just fine.

Just my two cents and experience with this issue.
 
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Scottbee

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I'll ask this here, I can't find a definitive answer with search and it seems related...

My Riva came with 2x2.5ohm attys. I had thought I was rockin' it lo-res because my impression was anything less than 3ohm was low.

I can certainly see that 1.5ohm would be low res. What is the ohm rating where the resistance is considered normal res, low res and high res?

I'm sure that opinions vary.... but here's mine:

For atties (not cartomizers mind you), I'd say that LR is probably anything below 2.0Ω's or so. "Standard" (SR) is probably from 2.1 up into the very low 3's.... and above that you are in HR land. You will get some variation since different "style" atomizers historically have had different SR resistances (901's for example). My bracketing is based on 510 configurations.
 
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