Doctor bashing and e-smoking

[Programmer]

I see a lot of "doctor bashing" going on in this forum, many comments to the tune of "he should have done his homework first" about ecigs, and so on. Granted, most of the MD's to get "the treatment" here are the ones in these news clips, but there have been stories of individual office visits posted here too.

And then in fairness, on the other side we have some participants who seem to be "doctor worshipers". Those who would swallow a cyanide pill if their physician told them to.

I have read each of these comments without saying a word, in deference to each of the original posters. Thought it might be best said in one post.

Full disclosure: My father is an MD. Yes, that's why I'm posting this.

You guys must think that doctors get (or SHOULD get) all their information by browsing obscure news sites and message boards like this one. Fact is, there is _plenty_ to read in the medical journals that they _need_ to read. You know, those articles that are based on *gasp* medical studies and such? And even then, some new studies slip by them. There just isn't time to read _everything_ in the medical journals, because doctors have to *gasp* deal with patients too.

So when some of you bash your doctor because he hasn't heard of an e-cig I think that's unfair, to say the least. He doesn't have the luxury of hanging out on your forum all day, should he fault you for not reading the latest issue of JAMA?

I find it funny that some of the same people who bash their doctor don't care if any studies are done. (I'm on the fence, don't look at me.) If studies aren't done, they won't appear in the medical journals. If they aren't in the medical literature you CANNOT blame your doctor.



Now with that said, I did call my father Friday and happened to mention that I quit smoking. This conversation likely would have been different in an office with a patient (liability), but obviously he's not going to give his own son the runaround.

Very first thing he asked me was how long I had quit smoking. A week. Then he asked what drug I decided to take for it. I told him none, I had found an amazing device called an electronic cigarette and asked him if he had ever heard of it.

He had not. Doctors do not scour CNN.com for video clips all day

He asked how it worked, I _briefly_ explained it, and made sure to mention the PG. He asked if anything was burning, I said no. I started to say I had no clue if it was safe but.. "but it's definitely safer than cigarettes" he finished my sentence for me. And then proceeded to tell me where else PG was used.

He said he would look into the safety of it.

Will that mean any new info for me? No, probably not, nor for anyone else on this board. Just because you're a doctor doesn't mean you have access to "secret" studies, of course.

As I see it, it only demonstrates two things:

1- You guys are just being unreasonable if you expect MDs to crawl the web looking for snake oil. Sure, THIS device works, but without trying it, and without medical studies, how is one to know? I'd be worried about the doctors that DO know about all the snake oils. Homeopathy, anyone?

2- You go into your doctor and talk to him, you may not get the straight dope. An MD acting as an MD is going to have to steer you away from puffing on something that is largely unknown. He _has_ to.

 

[angel.white]

I live in the United States, my opinion of doctors is lower than my opinion of mechanics and politicians.

That said, I'd never heard of e-cigs until I was trying to figure out why the cost of my carton went from $32 to $45 (less than a week ago), came across an e-cig news article, did research for well, about 30 hours now, but I decided which I was going to buy at about 20. I have never seen anyone smoke an e-cig except on youtube / google videos, I would not be surprised if a doctor did not know about them, and I wouldn't blame the doctor for that. Feel free, however, to blame them for everything else they tell you.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

I see a lot of "doctor bashing" going on in this forum, many comments to the tune of "he should have done his homework first" about ecigs, and so on. Granted, most of the MD's to get "the treatment" here are the ones in these news clips, but there have been stories of individual office visits posted here too.

And then in fairness, on the other side we have some participants who seem to be "doctor worshipers". Those who would swallow a cyanide pill if their physician told them to.

I have read each of these comments without saying a word, in deference to each of the original posters. Thought it might be best said in one post.

Full disclosure: My father is an MD. Yes, that's why I'm posting this.

You guys must think that doctors get (or SHOULD get) all their information by browsing obscure news sites and message boards like this one. Fact is, there is _plenty_ to read in the medical journals that they _need_ to read. You know, those articles that are based on *gasp* medical studies and such? And even then, some new studies slip by them. There just isn't time to read _everything_ in the medical journals, because doctors have to *gasp* deal with patients too.

So when some of you bash your doctor because he hasn't heard of an e-cig I think that's unfair, to say the least. He doesn't have the luxury of hanging out on your forum all day, should he fault you for not reading the latest issue of JAMA?

I find it funny that some of the same people who bash their doctor don't care if any studies are done. (I'm on the fence, don't look at me.) If studies aren't done, they won't appear in the medical journals. If they aren't in the medical literature you CANNOT blame your doctor.



Now with that said, I did call my father Friday and happened to mention that I quit smoking. This conversation likely would have been different in an office with a patient (liability), but obviously he's not going to give his own son the runaround.

Very first thing he asked me was how long I had quit smoking. A week. Then he asked what drug I decided to take for it. I told him none, I had found an amazing device called an electronic cigarette and asked him if he had ever heard of it.

He had not. Doctors do not scour CNN.com for video clips all day

He asked how it worked, I _briefly_ explained it, and made sure to mention the PG. He asked if anything was burning, I said no. I started to say I had no clue if it was safe but.. "but it's definitely safer than cigarettes" he finished my sentence for me. And then proceeded to tell me where else PG was used.

He said he would look into the safety of it.

Will that mean any new info for me? No, probably not, nor for anyone else on this board. Just because you're a doctor doesn't mean you have access to "secret" studies, of course.

As I see it, it only demonstrates two things:

1- You guys are just being unreasonable if you expect MDs to crawl the web looking for snake oil. Sure, THIS device works, but without trying it, and without medical studies, how is one to know? I'd be worried about the doctors that DO know about all the snake oils. Homeopathy, anyone?

2- You go into your doctor and talk to him, you may not get the straight dope. An MD acting as an MD is going to have to steer you away from puffing on something that is largely unknown. He _has_ to.

Programmer--While I did enjoy your story here with your Dad--I respecfully dissent.... From the many posts I have read here--the Doctor Bashing was right on point--and that goes to the Early Show Doctor--If you do not know what you are talking about--then the Doctor should shut up or take the time to find out--I am sure he got paid or at least got name reckonition for his stellar interview.

The bottom line is that I expect the truth from a Doctor--they took the oath and if they do not know--they should say that rather then speculate. In the alternative, if they do have knowldge that is viable, they should share that as well. To say that we are Doctor bashing is really overreaching here.

All we are looking for is some mouths shut when they do not know rather then appearing on major network TV and mouthing off about a product they know nothing about. If an MD is going to do an interview, they should find the time to do some research about what it is that they are getting compenstaion to talk about---that is my take on it with no disrepect to your Dad---Sun

 

[jamie]

Deleted... I agree with all of you.

 

[Walrus]

--and that goes to the Early Show Doctor--If you do not know what you are talking about--then the Doctor should shut up or take the time to find out--I am sure he got paid or at least got name reckonition for his stellar interview.

Sun, I think that bit of advice should be taken to heart by everyone, not just doctors. Journalists come to mind... as do some company CEOs that should know better.

 

[RjG]

Wow, that's a bit of typing, Programmer.

With respect for you and your Dad, I think you got it all wrong, where exactly did you read a post about somebody bashing a doctor they've seen? Geez, I don't think I've ever read one single account of that, not on this forum.

Quite the opposite... my doctor included, the general consensus I've gathered is that everybody's doctors are quite pleased with the substitution. At the very least, that same quote "ANYTHING is better than smoking a cigarette"


The only Doctors who get bashed, are ...... who go on T.V. or write "news" articles bashing the hell out of e-cigs, stating lie after lie as facts. It's disturbing, since a person of sufficient education to be a Doctor *should* do his homework before publicly denouncing the concept.

It goes towards trust - A Medical doctor deserves respect for the education they have, and people put trust their lives to them based on that.
I'm sure other Doctors, like your Dad, probably agree: If you haven't done any research on the topic, .... and stay out of the media until you actually ARE the expert that your "M.D." initials imply you are.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Sun, I think that bit of advice should be taken to heart by everyone, not just doctors. Journalists come to mind... as do some company CEOs that should know better.

Walrus--I could not agree more. I am so tired of people making statments that are unfounded and lack merit. Be it a Reporter, Doctor, or your local YMCA--if they do not know about the product--then do not dismiss it with speculative comments---Sun

 

[Programmer]

All we are looking for is some mouths shut when they do not know rather then appearing on major network TV and mouthing off about a product they know nothing about. If an MD is going to do an interview, they should find the time to do some research about what it is that they are getting compenstaion to talk about---that is my take on it with no disrepect to your Dad---Sun

Well said, Sun, can't agree more. When they are paid to go on camera and talk about these things, well then they certainly have an obligation to figure out what the hell is going on first.

And if they don't know, they should say I DON'T KNOW. On camera.

I'll bet half of these TV doctors are DO's anyway. *ducks*

 

[mrl]

My Doctor did not know anything about ecigs, but was happy I was not smoking. Seemed to be happy with the ingredients

 

[smokum]

My Doctor did not know anything about ecigs, but was happy I was not smoking. Seemed to be happy with the ingredients

Same here, yet even though unsure of its "safe" longterm outcomes, at least she took the "harm reduction" attitude and also claimed "well, at least you're not smoking".

But heaven forbid you admit to using Homeopathic products, which I did on the last visit, even though throughout years of being pushed pills for conditions that were "mildly" overcome in their use I had become much more succesful upon self researching, experimental use of self-medicating of these new natural concoctions in a short period of time as compared to the years of the pharmaceudical pusher.

I understand their responsibility in backing science and regulated medicines, but being told I MUST stop using what has been actually now working for me or lose the my continued support of my GP's services is just irresponsible.

All I can say is said was....... "Good Bye Pusher (Wo)Man" !!

What a shame in this day and age with shortages obtaining a family physician to take that attitude, and forcing me to dealing with the dreaded "clinic" atmosphere when need requires it. This, after 23 years of seeing that same Doctor.

Anyone know a good witch-doctor taking on clients in my area that doesn't push these "proven and approved" pharmaceuticals that can have documented adverse effects, sometimes even killing people with there use ??

I'm lately of the opinion that YES I do need the medical association for surgeries and the like, if not at least for obtaining information, but when it now comes to my overall well being........ I'M THE ONE TAKING CHARGE !!

VapeOn,
Greg

 

[wv2win]

Sun & Walrus, you guys took the words right out of my mouth. The only comments I have seen on this forum about local Doctors and Dentists (mine) that users have shown an electronic cigaretter to have been positive. It is the TV & print articles by Doctors and reporters that are the problem. Instead of doing research, they go on TV and warn that the device is probably dangerous.

Programmer, I will look forward to an update from you after your Dad has had some time to look into e-cigs more. Thank you for sharing.

 

[taz3cat]

Their are no "DOCTOR GODS" ( contary to what they believe) out there and a few of them deserve bashing.

 

[TropicalBob]

I didn't read one word in Programmers post that was untrue. That was a reality check. My own doctor was thrilled -- not that I was e-smoking but that I wasn't smoking cigarettes. He didn't care what I used as long as I didn't suck in tobacco smoke.

Doctors are in the dark, just as we are, on exactly what we're inhaling and what its long-term consequences will or might be. They cannot be expected to enthusiastically endorse a complete unknown drug from China that patients will inhale perhaps 300 times a day. If any doctor were that unprofessional, he/she would deserve dismissal from the medical societies.

If peer-reviewed studies prove this to be safe and effective, then doctors will learn of our practice and should favor it over smoking cigarettes. Until then, they will not endorse the Great Unknowns of E-Smoking. No one should expect them to.

 

[Wildsky]

Good for you greg! I agree totally, its hard to find a doctor that won't look at you "funnY'
I haven't seen one for a very long time. When I feel out of sorts, I go to my chiropractor or suck it up!

 

[gep]

[TLDR version: Doc's are good guys, talking heads are dangerous, journalists need to do their homework. Ecigs have helped me and I'm afraid they are going to become unavailable.]

****
I have a lot of respect for Doctors. They have to keep their skills honed and stay in the "medical" loop and it requires a lifetime of study.

I do not have respect for the "talking head" docs, that put themselves in a journalistic position and do NOT do their homework. Same thing for journalists in general. Do your homework if your role is to inform the public.

My docs are all happy that I have quit smoking cigs and when I tell them what I'm using and show them the e-cig their comment to me is: "Stay off the cigarettes, if this works for you great. Now try to wean yourself off the device and the nicotine." My dentist is not a fan because he said that if you have to draw too hard too frequently it could be a problem for my gums (I have a history of gum disease so that's my issue.)

My sister's pulmonologist said, "Isn't that (PG) what they use to clean out colon's before colonoscopies? Why would you want to inhale that?" (ROFL...He confused it with PEG, Polyethylene glycol, and my response to that is: Oh, I have to DRINK 3 liters of that nasty **** so you can scope me and THAT's Ok!)

Some of us are very defensive about the e-cig. We've invested a great deal of time and money and the advantages to using them over smoking analogs are so blatantly obvious to us that we're incredulous that ANYONE, professional or otherwise, could object to them. I think that's what your hearing, Programmer.

Many of us are afraid that this "godsend" is going to be taken away.

I'll grant you that it MAY not be safer. I'll grant you that it may have negative effects we are not aware of at this time. However, I know what my physical condition was before I used them and I know what it is now. For me there has been a considerable improvement and I am worried that bad/incomplete information is going to make this unaccessible to me and I may go back to smoking.

(Damn, that's a lot of writing. Sorry. *off soapbox*)

 

[vape4life]

Same here, yet even though unsure of its "safe" longterm outcomes, at least she took the "harm reduction" attitude and also claimed "well, at least you're not smoking".

But heaven forbid you admit to using Homeopathic products, which I did on the last visit, even though throughout years of being pushed pills for conditions that were "mildly" overcome in their use I had become much more succesful upon self researching, experimental use of self-medicating of these new natural concoctions in a short period of time as compared to the years of the pharmaceudical pusher.

I understand their responsibility in backing science and regulated medicines, but being told I MUST stop using what has been actually now working for me or lose the my continued support of my GP's services is just irresponsible.

All I can say is said was....... "Good Bye Pusher (Wo)Man" !!

What a shame in this day and age with shortages obtaining a family physician to take that attitude, and forcing me to dealing with the dreaded "clinic" atmosphere when need requires it. This, after 23 years of seeing that same Doctor.

Anyone know a good witch-doctor taking on clients in my area that doesn't push these "proven and approved" pharmaceuticals that can have documented adverse effects, sometimes even killing people with there use ??

I'm lately of the opinion that YES I do need the medical association for surgeries and the like, if not at least for obtaining information, but when it now comes to my overall well being........ I'M THE ONE TAKING CHARGE !!

VapeOn,
Greg

There is a big difference between "herbal supplements" and "homeopathic products." If she was urging you to stop homeopathic products it is understandable. True "homeopathic" products are pure religion. They claim that the more DILUTE a product is (if you water down tea extract 300 times is is 100 times more powerful than if you water down tea extract 30 times..... huh???) the more powerful it is because the solvent itself takes on the properties and energy of the solute. It's ridiculous. And she was just trying to save you some wasted money.

Some products are LABELED as homeopathic, but are truly herbal supplements (that is, the solute itself is intended to treat the condition it is marketed for. the more of the solute you take, the more of an effect you'll get). These are potentially legitimate products, though mislabeled.

 

[Frankie]

Well, I first learned about e-cigs from a doctor. Urologist, no less. He considered the e-cig as a maybe-untested-but-worth-to-try thing if you are hopelessly addicted.

BTW, is any addiction treatment covered by you health systems? In ours, almost all are and the alcholics, drug addicts, even gamblers get "free" treatment including hospitalizations at special anti-addiction clinics. Smokers are just told to stop whining and quit without any help whatsoever. This is what I find very wrong with "doctors" and even worse with the health insurance companies. We are all insured here and pay obligatorily in a tax-like way (percentage of income; all payers theoretically get the same treatment) and if quitting was really a cost saving measure for health care (and if there was any real treatment for this addiction available) the companies would provide to to as many people as possible to save costs. The insurance companies are private, using compulsorily levied fees from their policyholders. Bit like a Mob buing the privatized IRS...

 

[JJames68]

Programmer--While I did enjoy your story here with your Dad--I respecfully dissent.... From the many posts I have read here--the Doctor Bashing was right on point--and that goes to the Early Show Doctor--If you do not know what you are talking about--then the Doctor should shut up or take the time to find out--I am sure he got paid or at least got name reckonition for his stellar interview.

The bottom line is that I expect the truth from a Doctor--they took the oath and if they do not know--they should say that rather then speculate. In the alternative, if they do have knowldge that is viable, they should share that as well. To say that we are Doctor bashing is really overreaching here.

All we are looking for is some mouths shut when they do not know rather then appearing on major network TV and mouthing off about a product they know nothing about. If an MD is going to do an interview, they should find the time to do some research about what it is that they are getting compenstaion to talk about---that is my take on it with no disrepect to your Dad---Sun

I agree, if a doctor doesn't know, then they should just say they do not know and should not be saying any more, my doctor said she has not heard anything bad about e-cigarettes and is happy I quit smoking, but said will let me know if hears anything, but for now can not tell me anymore because she doesn't know anymore about them

 

[deewal]

I've already said in more than one post (i'm not going to search for them) what my Doctor's reaction was and i saw him again last week and my blood pressure levels are now lower than they have ever been in all the time i have been seeing him (about nine years).
He has cut my medication down by 4mg a day because i don't need as much as i was taking now, and he's very happy i have stopped smoking. He's seen and examined my Penstyle and we have discussed it and he say's there is nothing in my Blood Samples or Urine Samples that give him any cause for alarm and if there were he would tell me to stop. He said to "keep on doing what your doing because it's far better than Smoking"
I was just thinking today that the only evidence we could give Authorities about the healthier alternative of Vaping was "anecdotal".
Would someones Medical Records which show a marked improvement of their Medical Condition after 9 months of Vaping be taken more seriously?

 

[TropicalBob]

Deewal, I have long wished some university or respected research agency would have enlisted present e-smokers for an anecdotal study. I would willingly give them access to any and all my medical records. Hundreds of such volunteers would reveal any pattern -- good or bad -- unique to e-smokers. But, so far, no study.

I regularly get checked and blood work done. So far, nothing unusual. The last test, I had them determine blood PH level, so I could see if the massive propylene glycol I inhale daily (it turns to lactic acid in the body) was creating acidic blood. Nope. I'm normal.

But I really would welcome a group study.