Does the new Regulation have a point?

[chesney]

Hi
I know this might attract some reasonably negative responses, so bare with me if you can.

I've been using an electronic cigarette since 2008. Its been amazing, I've stopped using tobacco, its all good.

I can't help being slightly embarrassed and disappointed with the way the electronic cigarette industry threw itself whole heartedly into the refillable idea.

I always thought bottled of liquid were a little dangerous to have around, especially with bright labels and lots of various sweet flavours. I have four children, they will eat or drink anything when crawling around. It just seemed so unnecessary.

Now we have a million different flavours, some very high strengths on the shelves of so called Vape shops, Massive and awkward looking ecigarette devices with large tanks.

The direction it took from about 2010 ish seemed to be appealing to the younger alco pop type community.

You tube is full of Vapers that seem to be more interested in the size of the cloud and the complexity of their vaping machine than anything else. (Dude)

I do remember being worried that the flavours like, candy crush, lager, etc would attract the wrong type of attention. I did expect an outright ban, it seems we did escape a ban but I think that this liquid refilling blowing massive clouds and using silly flavours caused most of the problem in the first place.

The problem is similar to the outrage at alco pops for the alcohol industry. I would have preferred that the electronic cigarette industry had kept it simple and not looked like it was attempting to attract a younger audience. It just feels wrong.

Question is, Does the new regulation have a point, and did the introduction of various whacky flavours and super strength liquid cause the powers that be to take action?

Chesney

 

[Siouxinpa]

Did something just pass in the UK? Are they going with the EU Tobacco rules or the medical licensing rules?

 

[daviedog]

You make too much sense. It's all about taxes & restrictions..

 

[chesney]

I believe its May 2016 for EU regulation, If we are still in the EU then. I've not delved into great detail of the regulation but I think it mostly restricts tank sizes, liquid bottle sizes and possibly flavours.
My Main point was, if it hadn't all gone a bit silly, maybe the regulation wouldn't have been so necessary.
Although, maybe thats just me being naive. Maybe all this was just inevitable.
Call me old fashioned, but I never wanted a cigarette to taste like a pina colada or a pint of lager or even a cherry.

 

[chesney]

I haven't seen anything about taxes mentioned in eu regulation. I wouldn't want to be paranoid enough to assume its about tax. Government can tax to death a non green industry like petrol or a harmful industry like tobacco.

Is it politically correct to tax a life saving healthy alternative to smoking? I don't think there is a special tax on the pharma nicotine replacement industry that amounts to a multi billion dollar industry.

I'm sure they would if they could, I don't think they would get away with it though, they quite like peoples votes.

The good part of the electronic cigarettes popularity is that now its in the millions, the politicians are now at least worried about the vaping voters.

Genie is out of the bottle for electronic cigarettes. Even Main stream media seems to accept it saves lives and is better than smoking tobacco.

Politicians are snookered to raise tax using electronic cigarettes.

It'll certainly be about restrictions, I don't think its about tax.

 

[TotemHarpy]

I'm not sure about how far the regulation goes for flavors, but personally I don't think I would have quit smoking if vaping tasted just like a cigarette. Part of what drew me (other than the medical/financial benefits) was the flavor. Dessert flavors I'm quickly finding are my favorites.

As far as the big clouds and such (and I am still very new to vaping), I look at it like any other leisure thing. Nail art for example (follow me here I swear it makes sense): I'm more of a paint it yourself diy-er with my designs and I don't like big bulky stuff. Others love bubble stickers, jewels, 3d built up acrylics ect. That stuff seems a bit much for my tastes, but that's what they enjoy so more power to them. To each their own, as long as it makes them happy.

 

[gandymarsh]

The reason for the refillables, more powerful devices and a variety of flavored liquids is obvious, to me at least. The manufacturers are responding to consumer requests. That's how it works. Manufacturers make products available and then wait to see what sells. They also receive feedback from customers and use that to develop new devices. Customers wanted more power, better delivery systems and more flavor choices.

I, for one, am glad the industry has progressed to the point it is now. I've been vaping for just over 1 year now so I don't have any experience with the early devices or juices but from what I've read, things were very primitive in the early days.

As for regulations, it's more about tax money than "protecting the children". They use that so they can demonize vaping and then regulate and tax it.

Edit; I'm in the US so I'm not familiar with what goes on in the UK.

 

[Siouxinpa]

As with any regulation, you need to follow the money. Who benefits the most from vaping being regulated?

BT obviously. I don't think that taxes are the reasons for it. The demonization of vaping is caused by BT, because it encroaches on their market.

Now the industry didn't do itself any favors labeling eliquid things like Swedish Fish, Sour Patch Apple or Thin Mint. But the faux hysteria about vaping needing to be regulated to protect children is pure BT tactics.

 

[chesney]

I take your point, I'm also of the each to their own opinion.
I'd much prefer government got completely out of the way and let us all get on with every part of our lives, however, this is not the world we live in.
I would be genuinely concerned that a child were to take up vaping, although it won't do them any harm generally, it would just be a pointless introduction to another crutch of addiction they can manage without.
The nanny state seems to be accepted by most though, and this was my initial worry, the emerging flavour fest and silliness (in my opinion) just played into the hands of the nanny state and gave them an excuse to regulate for our own good, in our best interests etc.
All rubbish of course, but I wonder how much this cloud competition with bubble gum flavours caused them to be able to act in our best interest.
If we'd kept it simple, it would have been harder for them to try and save us.

 

[gandymarsh]

It's not just BT that will benefit from e-cig regulation and taxation. Big Pharma has a lot to lose if people quit smoking. It's not just NRTs (nicotine replacement therapy), it's the money they make on drugs for cancer treatment, COPD treatment etc.

If we'd kept it simple, it would have been harder for them to try and save us.

I think it was/is inevitable either way. When the government(s) see a new source of revenue, they chase it.

 

[Siouxinpa]

Wow, I am super cynical about Big Pharma but I didn't make that leap. Agreed, this is something that they would do.

 

[Ramsey]

I'm not the best person to comment on this but i'm of the opinion that balls roll and wheels turn, I think they need to take charge of the industry and tighten it up, typically manufacturers always look at margin, if no one makes them do something they self regulate to a point but not to the standards we'd generally want them to.
nothing will stop the market from rolling forward, Vape manufacturers may just have to sell a bottle of flavor separate to the Nic/PG/VG mix. same with hardware may just have to be sold as a novelty items or a sticker saying no user serviceable parts. some wheels just keep turning this is a Smoker revolution, this maybe naive but whats the alternative force us all back to tobacco!?.

another thing that comes to mind in the argument of whats to much in the industry is that they never told RIZLA to make their papers smaller to lower consumer intake. maybe i should go read the paper instead!

 

[nyiddle]

You're making this rather large assumption that government wouldn't have gotten involved if we had stuck to, say, tobacco flavors and tiny eGo devices.

I don't think that's the case. Government would've stuck their nose in it even if e-cigarettes looked and tasted exactly like cigarettes. Beyond that, kids would be interested regardless of the flavorings, "cloud hype", and general YouTube stuff. When you were a kid, did you drink underage?

Further still..

bubble gum flavours caused them to be able to act in our best interest.

 

[chesney]

BT are well and truly in this game now though.

They were killing everyone for years now they've decided to save us at the same time.

As far as I can tell, not one of the BT giants are making any profit out of vaping yet. They are spending plenty though, maybe there going for domination by the deepest pockets strategy.

There are genuine dangers, mostly through skin absorption. Drinking it at least may be more noticed, I think a child spilling the liquid on themselves could more easily go unnoticed, most would wipe it off not realizing that its quite quickly absorbed. We're adults, I get it, we'll be careful and all that. I just considered the little bottles of liquid totally unnecessary and a messy pain in the ....

Also, these new devices are not technologically advanced, they are basically the same as the old three part cigalikes, just bigger with refillable tanks, same principle though. Same old problems I see with people using them, they are never quite sure if the battery is flat or the atomiser is clogged etc. I'm not a user of them though, maybe they've gone all apple iphone on us in technology lately, self cleaning tell you which bit is broken technology or something.

I'm in the minority, I never liked the liquid thing, I prefer convenience. I never rolled my own tobacco either, or grew my own tobacco plant. I fill my car up at the petrol station, I don't try and refill it myself at home with a home brew fuel for the same reason.

 

[nyiddle]

Actually, I have to make a point:

With these more powerful devices, we're seeing lower nic levels, which subsequently means the juice is technically "safer" in that it has less nicotine in it. In 2010 I don't think 3mg even existed because it was pointless, nobody could get a buzz off 3mg. You'd either get 6mg or 0mg.

Nowadays, I've seen people interested in 1, 2, and 3mg nic levels. Arguably, they're consuming more juice, but it's more juice at a lower nic level. If your argument is that the e-liquid is potentially dangerous, the newer technology has actually helped reduce that potential danger.

I think the new technology has made vaping more easily accessible, and with the addition of cheap regulated devices, we're safer because we have batteries that'll tell us they're flat, or tell us when our atomizer is too low of a resistance. Back when it was just eGo's or mech mods (and the few regulated devices on the market) it was definitely more of a discerning mystery. I remember when I first got a mech + RDA, about 2 years ago, it was because that was the only way I could find to get the throat hit that I needed to quit. Now? You can get the same exact experience with a SubTank and a regulated iStick. It's cheaper, safer, and ultimately more convenient.

 

[Susan~S]

@rolygate our Forum Manager is extremely knowledgeable on this subject. Here's one of his quotes in this thread: The Future of E-Cigs

Smoking is a license to print money for multiple beneficiaries. These recipients vary by country; for example in the UK, the national government is a greater than 90% stakeholder in cigarette sales, but this does not apply in the USA: the States are the biggest governmental beneficiary, with huge MSA funds paid to them as well as the local taxes. California and New York have done particularly well out of the MSA system (the Master Settlement Agreement - basically, a fine that the tobacco companies must pay the States to compensate them for costs associated with smoking). The MSA funds are paid ultimately by the consumer, not the tobacco companies, in any case (the price of a pack is raised by the amount the company has to pay the State). It's just another tax.

However, in most places in the developed world (and perhaps everywhere - I haven't looked at the figures), the pharmaceutical industry earns more from smoking than the tobacco industry. This is easy to work out in the UK where the figures are easy to obtain and on a nicely small scale, and we can see that tobacco earns £2bn a year from sales and pharma earns at least £3bn from smoking-related disease (probably £4bn+).

Also, we can see that pharma probably makes more than the tobacco industry from smoking, on a global scale: the global profit (not gross) from tobacco sales is around $45bn (the gross sales figure is around $850bn - most is tax); and the percentage of pharma's global gross of $1.1 trillion due to smoking-related disease cannot be less than 10% and is most likely around 15% (therefore over $100bn and maybe $150bn), the profit margins are high, and the greatest proportion of the most profitable sales of all takes place in the rich countries.

So it is not surprising to find that the pharmaceutical industry is the principal commercial actor behind opposition to ecigs. If you follow the money trail back from bent research, bent researchers, bent politicians and bent propaganda, if it doesn't lead back to State funding (to protect their revenues) it always leads back to pharma. It would be a disaster for pharma if THR (ecigs and Snus) took over from smoking. The same goes for the US States and the governments of small, socialised countries like the UK (where government makes the same from smoking on the backend as the frontend: they get monster taxes on the frontend (OTC sales) and don't have to pay pensions and huge social support costs for the elderly, who die 10 years early if they smoke - the 'backend').

The tobacco industry did a deal with government to keep quiet in return for a guaranteed, high-profit future. Their revenues are safe and they have far less need to fight like pharma. Governments will give the ecig trade to Big Tobacco anyway, so it's all been fixed already; BT can then do what they like with it.

 

[BrotherBob]

IMO
Money is the key concern here. Governments end up eating the cost on health.
Nic is a killer and the biggest danger short term. The number one thing we ADULTS can all do, is to keep children away from it.
Long term dangers are still an unknown. Vape sensibly. Hopefully we will have sensible government regulations.

 

[chesney]

I shall confess, I stopped smoking tobacco for three years, then stupidly started using electronic cigarettes. I know its silly, but I missed being an addict. I'm probably quite rare, there were lots of ancillary reasons. I can be quite complicated

You mention a "Buzz"

Unless its just me, there was no "Buzz" with electronic cigarettes. It was actually quite difficult to notice I was becoming addicted again, the first puff, I felt nothing, no buzz, just nothing. This is why I think people that have never smoked will be interested at all, after trying an ecig. An Ecig gives you nothing, apart from nicotine, its not exciting, its not satisfying, unless you are a nicotine addict.

If I smoke tobacco I get a buzz. This is carbon monoxide, this is the Buzz most feel when smoking, its entirely absent from ecigarettes. This carbon Monoxide buzz is what gets most kids hooked, its like a light headed druggy type experience. This has nothing to do with nicotine. Same type of buzz from inhaling car exhaust fumes.

I don't vape because I enjoy it, I vape because I am a nicotine addict. It delivers to my brain the drug that it craves.Its why flavours are so not necessary, I mean, tobacco tastes awful, but I still smoked, It really doesn't matter what flavour I got used to, because I knew why I was using electronic cigarettes in the first place, because I missed being addicted to something, it keeps me busy.

I think part of the reason people concentrate on modding, blowing massive amounts of clouds, messing with huge varieties of flavours is because, basically vaping is just a boring activity, its a device to keep your nicotine addiction in check and nothing more. The flavours and the cloud competitions add an element of excitement to the very dull true point of an ecigarette.

 

[nyiddle]

You mention a "Buzz"

Unless its just me, there was no "Buzz" with electronic cigarettes.

It has to be just you. Taking a puff of some high-nic e-liquid definitely gives me a noticeable buzz. Similar to cigarettes, even, in that it gives me that nice light-headedness sort of "high". The feeling from a real cigarette is far different, likely in part because of the chemicals. I've heard Whole Tobacco Alkaloid juices offer even more of that cigarette "buzz" as they feature chemicals found in tobacco that aren't commonly found in e-juice.

I think part of the reason people concentrate on modding, blowing massive amounts of clouds, messing with huge varieties of flavours is because, basically vaping is just a boring activity, its a device to keep your nicotine addiction in check and nothing more. The flavours and the cloud competitions add an element of excitement to the very dull true point of an ecigarette.

Not for me. I love clouds. I don't participate in cloud competitions, and I'd vape unflavored if it came down to it -- though I do prefer flavors.

tobacco tastes awful, but I still smoked,

One think I've learned is that we are very different people, because I love the taste of good tobacco.

 

[Steamix]

There've been some noises about taxing vapes - some back benchers of various parliaments piped up. Most likely after being told to pipe up. The heavies are not going to burn their rep on it. Common practice :
Let some unknowns get their 15 minutes of fame and 15 days of flame if doesn't go down too well with the populace.
BT. BP. Governments. ANTZ. Telling everyone to quit smoking but all would come crawling on their knees if all smokers actually did quit.
Cushy jobs, self-important intervies, big noble talk for the media, hard cash for the salary check or the balance sheet.
They're hooked on cash like smokers on nicotine.
WE've found a way to quit our addiction.
They haven't found a way to quit theirs. Neither do they want to.

So taxation will happen.