Does this seem right to you?

[Rossum]

I think the Key Word in NPRM is "Proposed".

Just because I didn't see Any specifics regarding Nicotine mg/ml Limits or Closed System Cartridges in the Purposed Rules doesn't mean that I don't think that they Can't appear in the Final Rule Set.

Mr. Zeller seemed Very Clear and has stated Many Times that what was Proposed was just a Framework of what is to Come.

Oh, I have no doubt that it's "just a framework", but the way I understand the regulatory process is that most of the specifics will have to come in a subsequent rounds, once "Deeming" is in place, not at the same time.

Note: My understanding is based on a different industry and a different agencies, but there are striking parallels.

 

[zoiDman]

I'm curious if anyone who's been keeping up with legislation knows this -- All the states that already ban sales to underage persons. Do they include no-nic products in the ban?

I'm not aware of any No-Nicotine products that have been Successfully Banned by States.

Maybe someone can post if their State has.

 

[beckdg]

I'm deeply saddened watching this conversation start with how they want to screw us and working it's way back to just how far we're willing to bend over for them before they show us how big their telephone pole really is.

It's our battle. We should be putting our foot down.

For the first time in my life I'm embarrassed to fight for something I believe in along with other folks of similar interest.

For the first time in my life I'm fighting along side of folks who've conceded to failure before fighting.

For the first time in my life, the battle will be lost... thanks to those WHO THINK they're fighting by conceding.

For the first time in my life... well... have at it, folks...

I'm stockpiling nic.

Y'all are content with losing in a big way...

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

I'm not aware of any No-Nicotine products that have been Successfully Banned by States.

Maybe someone can post if their State has.

Ummm. .. The hardware doesn't contain nic...

Tapatyped

 

[Wow1420]

Ummm. .. The hardware doesn't contain nic...

Tapatyped

I was asking about things like no-nic "hookah pens" and no-nic liquid.

 

[YoursTruli]

I'm deeply saddened watching this conversation start with how they want to screw us and working it's way back to just how far we're willing to bend over for them before they show us how big their telephone pole really is.

It's our battle. We should be putting our foot down.

For the first time in my life I'm embarrassed to fight for something I believe in along with other folks of similar interest.

For the first time in my life I'm fighting along side of folks who've conceded to failure before fighting.

For the first time in my life, the battle will be lost... thanks to those WHO THINK they're fighting by conceding.

For the first time in my life... well... have at it, folks...

I'm stockpiling nic.

Y'all are content with losing in a big way...

Tapatyped

This "fight" did not start today, last week, last month or even last year, although it seems like that is how most are viewing it now that the cards are starting to be laid out openly on the table discovering it just may directly effect them. This has been an ongoing ever changing and increasing battle beginning shortly after ecigs first arrived in US markets. There are vapers who have watched and fought this ever increasing/changing battle in the front lines ever since the first confiscation at US customs beginning in 2008-2009 and fully understand first hand all of the realities of what we are up against. While this may be easy to judge from an armchair distance or by those stepping late into the game they are choosing their battles wisely based on years of experience.

 

[stevegmu]

I'm curious if anyone who's been keeping up with legislation knows this -- All the states that already ban sales to underage persons. Do they include no-nic products in the ban?

It's up to each state; like some states don't allow those under 21 to buy non alcoholic beer...

 

[Lessifer]

I was asking about things like no-nic "hookah pens" and no-nic liquid.

Being as every vape shop I've ever been in won't let you through the door if you're under 18, I would say it's a de facto ban on underage sale, even of no-nic products, even if it isn't in the legislation.

The legislation I've seen regarding underage sales bans is poorly written, usually doesn't mention nicotine at all.

 

[beckdg]

This "fight" did not start today, last week, last month or even last year, although it seems like that is how most are viewing it now that the cards are starting to be laid out openly on the table discovering it just may directly effect them. This has been an ongoing ever changing and increasing battle beginning shortly after ecigs first arrived in US markets. There are vapers who have watched and fought this ever increasing/changing battle in the front lines ever since the first confiscation at US customs beginning in 2008-2009 and fully understand first hand all of the realities of what we are up against. While this may be easy to judge from an armchair distance or by those stepping late into the game they are choosing their battles wisely based on years of experience.

This fight is in its infancy in comparison.

Choosing battles is not nearly as wise as corralling the troops.

Customs confiscation for a yr or two doesn't even register as small time in the larger scope of things.

My assertion stands. We're rolling over and taking one as a team.

ETA; "the cards" have been on the table the whole time. In a decade, CASAA has garnered less members and member actions than when my reptile owners group was in its first week.

"The card" we're playing is atrophy and flexibility.

Good thing... As far as we're going to have to bend over before it's all said and done.

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

I was asking about things like no-nic "hookah pens" and no-nic liquid.

Hookah pens are hardware

Hardware doesn't contain nic

Tapatyped

 

[Jazzman]

The deeming regs start and finish with deeming ecig products as tobacco. Without this passing there is nothing else on the table for the FDA. Minors in a vaping shop is not a separate issue in the deeming and can't be enacted or enforced by the FDA without deeming ecigs as tobacco with the way the current regs are written. Don't lose focus on the one and only real issue by ancillary issues that sound reasonable, but require the deeming as tobacco to pass. That is the road to defeat for vaping.

Underage vaping and access to vaping establishment can and should be handled by localities, states, or a completely separate FDA reg than what is currently on the table. I don't see any movement on the FDAs part for rewriting the proposed regs to encompass just those issues we agree with, and the FDA has stated that they intend to pass the regs as written without amendment. Unless they change their point of view, and I see no willingness on their part to do so, we are fighting the deem as tobacco issue regardless of the other issues attached to it. Reasonable measures for reasonable actions can be handled by reasonable regulations that don't include deeming ecig products as tobacco.

 

[beckdg]

The deeming regs start and finish with deeming ecig products as tobacco. Without this passing there is nothing else on the table for the FDA. Minors in a vaping shop is not a separate issue in the deeming and can't be enacted or enforced by the FDA without deeming ecigs as tobacco with the way the current regs are written. Don't lose focus on the one and only real issue by ancillary issues that sound reasonable, but require the deeming as tobacco to pass. That is the road to defeat for vaping.

Underage vaping and access to vaping establishment can and should be handled by localities, states, or a completely separate FDA reg than what is currently on the table. I don't see any movement on the FDAs part for rewriting the proposed regs to encompass just those issues we agree with, and the FDA has stated that they intend to pass the regs as written without amendment. Unless they change their point of view, and I see no willingness on their part to do so, we are fighting the deem as tobacco issue regardless of the other issues attached to it. Reasonable measures for reasonable actions can be handled by reasonable regulations that don't include deeming ecig products as tobacco.

BRAVO!!!

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

This fight is in its infancy in comparison.

Choosing battles is not nearly as wise as corralling the troops.

Customs confiscation for a yr or two doesn't even register as small time in the larger scope of things.

My assertion stands. We're rolling over and taking one as a team.

ETA; "the cards" have been on the table the whole time. In a decade, CASAA has garnered less members and member actions than when my reptile owners group was in its first week.

"The card" we're playing is atrophy and flexibility.

Good thing... As far as we're going to have to bend over before it's all said and done.

Tapatyped

I want to add to this...

We NEVER got info from USARK or other groups saying we agree this or that should be limited.

We ALWAYS got emails saying "this is what they're up to now and this is our angle to end it".

At crucial comment periods there was usually a letter written to digitally sign and a button to click to send it to all the powers that be.

When the news was plastered across the country with that guys snake that swallowed his girlfriends daughter whole, we stood our ground.

We won while facing that.

What is vapor facing that compares? Nothing...

(And fyi... that event is more rare than someone in my small town dying from hitting a dear while wearing a seatbelt, doing below the speed limit and the air bag deployed. Great magnitudes more rare.)

Tapatyped

 

[skoony]

No Problem bluecat.

These 3 Words, "Derived from Tobacco", is kinda the Long and the Short of the "Deeming".

The Nicotine we use Is "Derived from Tobacco".

A person who uses 0mg does Not Use anything that is "Derived from Tobacco".

An 18650 Battery is Not "Derived from Tobacco"

etc...

derived from means any thing that copies,mimics,takes the place,used instead of, a facemlie of,
looks like,is a clone of tobacco or a tobacco product. there is no exclusion or,inclusion
of nicotine in the deeming proposal. derived from means it doesn't even have to have
any thing from tobacco in it. its a new term designed to cover designer stuff.its to cover
every possibility past present and future.
further more in the deeming proposal its stated any thing used in the consumption
of tobacco or a tobacco product is considered part of the tobacco or tobacco product
and therefore can be regulated.
Lesifer quoted the exact terminology in earlier posts in this thread.
a PV in whole or in part is a tobacco product and as such can be regulated
as a tobacco product.
i am not saying what they will or will not try to do.
what i am saying is the way the proposal is written they can
do what ever they want. no internet sales.no DIY. nothing
made after 2007.no flavors. ad restrictions,yada,yada,yada.
another thing i would like to say is forget what Zeller said.
he is a department head. he is not the FDA.he is not writing
the regulations.what he says carries no authority.
rant over.

regards
mike

 

[skoony]

Seems to me, in the system of Checks and Balances, the power of the Judiciary trumps everything else.

Andria

it should but,the regs have to be issued first and someone has to
get it to the courts,second.
mike

 

[zoiDman]

derived from means any thing that copies,mimics,takes the place,used instead of, a facemlie of,
looks like,is a clone of tobacco or a tobacco product. there is no exclusion or,inclusion
of nicotine in the deeming proposal. derived from means it doesn't even have to have
any thing from tobacco in it. its a new term designed to cover designer stuff.its to cover
every possibility past present and future.

OK... Can you post a Link to where you got this Definition to the word "Derived"?

 

[skoony]

They have not been deemed as tobacco products as of yet

Federal Register | Deeming Tobacco Products To Be Subject to the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, as Amended by the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act; Regulations on the Sale and Distribution of Tobacco Products and Required Warning Statements for Tobacco Products

FDA proposes to extend its tobacco authority to additional tobacco products, including e-cigarettes

Deeming – Extending Authorities to Additional Tobacco Products

your first link,as amended by the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco
Control Act deemed e-cigs as a tobacco product and as such the FDA is
authorized to regulate them as tobacco products.
deeming proposal does not mean the FDA is making e-cigs
a tobacco product. it means these are the first regulations
concerning these newly deemed tobacco products.

regards
mike

 

[supertrunker]

However, as legislation goes, "looks like" is not the same as "derived from" and would be torn to shreds in any court.

T

 

[zoiDman]

your first link,as amended by the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco
Control Act deemed e-cigs as a tobacco product and as such the FDA is
authorized to regulate them as tobacco products.
deeming proposal does not mean the FDA is making e-cigs
a tobacco product. it means these are the first regulations
concerning these newly deemed tobacco products.

regards
mike

We know all that.

I want to know where you are getting this from....

"derived from means any thing that copies,mimics,takes the place,used instead of, a facemlie of,
looks like,is a clone of tobacco or a tobacco product."

What is your source for the Definition of the word "Derived" ?

Such as something like this...

derive
(Receive), verb acquire, come into possession, draw from, extract, get, glean, obtain, procure, secure, take, trahere

derived legal definition of derived

 

[caramel]

However, as legislation goes, "looks like" is not the same as "derived from" and would be torn to shreds in any court.

T

Not if, for the purpose of the regulation, they define them to be the same in one of the "definitions" paragraphs.