Does this seem right to you?

[englishmick]

Perhaps you are simply unaware, beckdg vapes at 50mg/ml, so suggesting that 36mg/ml maximum is a fair "compromise" is throwing him under the bus. Along with those that DIY out of financial necessity.

Yeah, Beck uses 50%. Andria needs WTA, and I make my own juice. All three of us are likely to be out of luck soon. (freezer supplies excepted)

Compromise is a tricky thing. Especially if you aren't one of the people at the table for the negotiations, like we aren't. If FDA announces tonight that we can keep all we have today but we have to pay a 100% tax on everything I would be cheering until dawn. I know that would be a hardship for people who are living paycheck to paycheck and I would feel bad about it. What about nic limits or WTA or bans on out of state juice. Nobody is going to ask us anyway. I would be little sad if people here said we have to give up on DIY in order to save the rest of vaping. But come on guys, look over there in front of the bow of the ship, that big white pointy thing looming out of the mist. It's really really big. Let's shake hands before the curtain comes down. Being friends is more important than being right sometimes.

Does anyone know what position the people arguing for our side are taking on these issues? CASAA for example. Are they taking a hard line on everything?

 

[zoiDman]

That's terrific!! Continue on with your effort then. I will continue with mine by supporting CASAA and SFATA, and sending my thoughts on how vaping as a whole (the way it is now) has helped me, family and friend. But I don't feel that I should decide prematurely which labels are good and which will be made to change. I guess I am a true New Hampshirite (Live and Let Die).

Right on Jode for your Continued Support of CASAA and SFATA.

We may Dis-Agree on some of the Points raised in this Thread. And that OK. But we are Both in Complete Agreement in Support for CASAA an SFATA.

 

[deepsouth]

Trying or not any compromise other than the way the industry has been run up until now is throwing someone under the bus. That is his point.
If all fight to keep it as is we may lose but we may not and we may lose less than what you have already stated your willing to give away or we may lose more. We need to fight each and every claim made individually and fight them all.

 

[Jode]

Trying or not any compromise other than the way the industry has been run up until now is throwing someone under the bus. That is his point.
If all fight to keep it as is we may lose but we may not and we may lose less than what you have already stated your willing to give away or we may lose more. We need to fight each and every claim made individually and fight them all.

Maybe it is just me but I really do not think that is what is being said here. I don't think any of us have any plans to stand and say "All or Nothing". I think we all know we are going to have to give up part of it. What I am saying at least is that I am unwilling to start pointing fingers in our own camp and telling anybody they are doing it wrong at least on the lines of marketing. I think that is what the argument is about. I personally have no interest currently in any juices that have cartoons on them, but who am I to tell somebody else that they should not find that attractive for themselves. Children are drawn to all kinds of dangerous things for all kinds of reasons so I just think that this is exactly the kind of dividing these zealots want to create in our camp. My 1 1/2 year old grandson is drawn to the safety plug slot thingys that you are supposed to put in to "childproof" your home. Is that dangerous? Yes, is there a cartoon there drawing him? No. If he gets a shock is it the electric companies fault or that of the safety plug people? Heck no, it would be mine or whoever was in charge of watching him at the time, responsibility to try to keep him away all together.

I see the point, I just don't agree that we should throw our own under the bus. Let them do it if they must.

 

[beckdg]

Trying or not any compromise other than the way the industry has been run up until now is throwing someone under the bus. That is his point.
If all fight to keep it as is we may lose but we may not and we may lose less than what you have already stated your willing to give away or we may lose more. We need to fight each and every claim made individually and fight them all.

Exactly

All or nothing my patootey.

All. Period. Anything else is a loss.

Tapatyped

 

[AndriaD]

It is medicine. I have to take it when I eat. Adults never notice, but every kid does. And every kid has thought it was candy ?? I tell them its medicine, but they don't believe me. And next thing I know there's a giant scene because kid is angry that I have candy and s/he doesn't. I've never understood why they all think its candy.

So I bring this up because that e liquid sure looks yummier than my medicine. If kids think my medicine is candy, I don't doubt they would think that e liquid is.

Maybe their parents have very foolishly enticed them to take their medicine by telling them it was candy -- or, even more stupidly, told the kids that whatever the parent is taking is "grownup candy" -- show me a kid that wouldn't love to tear into something called "grownup candy," and I'll show you a child raised by wolves.

Andria

 

[Rossum]

I personally have no interest currently in any juices that have cartoons on them

What about a vendor's website? Should the cartoonish representation of a white rabbit in glasses and a bow tie get the axe to placate those who wish to "govern" us?

 

[caramel]

The funny thing is that we somehow got to the point where we're proposing stricter rules for vaping than for cigarettes. Zoid, do you remember what the nic limit for cigarettes is? Or the tamper proof, child resistant packaging requirements? The metered dosage? Or anything like that?

No?

Any idea on how did we get here, and most importantly, WHY?

 

[AndriaD]

"When a session of Congress bases their opinions of relevance on a picture instead of actual research & mature, reasonable, rational thought & common sense is what matters."

When congress has before them a product that is intended for adults that contains a deadly poisonous liquid that is placed in a cute gummy bear shaped bottle with cute gummy bears on the label i would say that is going to raise eyebrows by not only congress, but the general population as well. Why? because we have kids as early as middle school drawn to vaping flavors, as well as increasing cases of nic poisoning of very young children who are clearly going to be drawn to cute kiddie packaging.

If the vaping industry doesn't want to be accused of marketing to kids, then they should stay clear of anything that suggest that they are. The fact that this problem even exist to be thrown up in our faces and used against us makes us look like the immature fools.

"Well you see congress, adults feel "special" when they vape their deadly poisonous liquid and it comes in "cute kiddie packaging"
"Our adult customers feel even more "special" when we pitch our product to them in cute kiddie chatter!!"

"Papa Smurf eJuice
Who knew Papa Smurf vaped? He asked me for a real fruity, smooth sweet vape to top off his vape collection and this is what we created for him. He wanted it all to himself but I talked him into letting everyone get a hold of this amazing e juice. With notes of blueberry and cream, this vape will satisfy day after day. Grab a bottle of this and you can vape it up like Papa Smurf!"

Yeah this is not going to end well when the gavel comes down unless people stop with this juvenile nonsense.

One thing I've noticed is how often you describe ejuice as "deadly poisonous"... so I have to ask the cliche... "dude, do you even vape?" Or is it some part of some game plan to constantly insert the words "deadly poisonous" in the near proximity of "ejuice"?

I can tell you, I wouldn't vape something that was "deadly poisonous," and I suspect most other vapers wouldn't either. could it hurt a small child who drank it? sure, but so could the bleach and ammonia and even that nice smelling dish soap sitting there on the kitchen sink -- that's what parents are for, to keep children from drinking anything "deadly poisonous."

Me, I detect some form of trolling in the so-frequent insertion of those words whenever simply saying "ejuice" would suffice.

Andria

 

[Lessifer]

One thing I've noticed is how often you describe ejuice as "deadly poisonous"... so I have to ask the cliche... "dude, do you even vape?" Or is it some part of some game plan to constantly insert the words "deadly poisonous" in the near proximity of "ejuice"?

I can tell you, I wouldn't vape something that was "deadly poisonous," and I suspect most other vapers wouldn't either. could it hurt a small child who drank it? sure, but so could the bleach and ammonia and even that nice smelling dish soap sitting there on the kitchen sink -- that's what parents are for, to keep children from drinking anything "deadly poisonous."

Me, I detect some form of trolling in the so-frequent insertion of those words whenever simply saying "ejuice" would suffice.

Andria

I'm not one to accuse anyone of being disingenuous here, though some posts do make me wonder. I think there's a deeper issue, and I've seen it a number of times on this forum, and it's one of the reasons I spend so much time posting.

We were taught for 50+ years to despise tobacco. Even while we were using it, many of us hated it, and hated ourselves for using it. Many of us, if we've stopped smoking it, still hate it. This is deeply ingrained in us now. Many vapers, see vaping as "tobacco light." Yeah, it might be less harmful, but come on, it's still nicotine, it's just another habit. Even amongst ourselves we can't fully accept that vaping is wholly different from smoking.

I try to point this out when I see it, and I do my best to get people to question their "gut" reactions. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don't. You'll see it all over the board in one form or another."

"Vaping isn't completely safe, but it's a whole lot better than smoking."
"I believe vaping is much less harmful than smoking, but if you've never smoked you definitely shouldn't vape."
"Of course teens shouldn't be allowed to buy liquid that contains nicotine."

I could go on, but I think you get my point.

BTW, I'm not singling you out Andria, just using your post as a springboard for a broader thought.

 

[AndriaD]

I'm not one to accuse anyone of being disingenuous here, though some posts do make me wonder. I think there's a deeper issue, and I've seen it a number of times on this forum, and it's one of the reasons I spend so much time posting.

We were taught for 50+ years to despise tobacco. Even while we were using it, many of us hated it, and hated ourselves for using it. Many of us, if we've stopped smoking it, still hate it. This is deeply ingrained in us now. Many vapers, see vaping as "tobacco light." Yeah, it might be less harmful, but come on, it's still nicotine, it's just another habit. Even amongst ourselves we can't fully accept that vaping is wholly different from smoking.

I try to point this out when I see it, and I do my best to get people to question their "gut" reactions. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don't. You'll see it all over the board in one form or another."

"Vaping isn't completely safe, but it's a whole lot better than smoking."
"I believe vaping is much less harmful than smoking, but if you've never smoked you definitely shouldn't vape."
"Of course teens shouldn't be allowed to buy liquid that contains nicotine."

I could go on, but I think you get my point.

BTW, I'm not singling you out Andria, just using your post as a springboard for a broader thought.

I agree with you. No, it's not the same as crystal spring water and pure oxygen, but I wish someone would tell me what is. I've made the point before, when someone says something stupid about just exchanging one habit for another, that it's like swapping hard drugs for bubblegum. Yeah, bubblegum might rot your teeth or give you TMJ, but I'm pretty sure it won't kill you -- if you're not an uncontrolled diabetic.

And that crystal spring water is leaching thru god knows what, and pure oxygen will age you/get you dead pretty quickly, seeing as how it OXIDIZES your cells... and why is it, exactly, that everything nowadays is some kind of ANTIOXIDANT???

What has happened is that all these people have been thoroughly brainwashed by puritans. I never had the slightest "smoker's guilt," except when I realized that smoking indoors was causing my son's bronchitis to get worse -- so I took it outdoors. If he followed me to talk, he was told to either stand upwind, or get his .... back in the house. The brainwashed masses have accepted the faulty morality that anything enjoyable is therefore, NECESSARILY, bad for you. Hogwash. Pure and unadulterated hogwash, and I truly pity people with so little backbone that they've accepted this pure stupidity, at the expense of their own quality of life.

But I still think that inserting "deadly poisonous" anywhere one is referring to ejuice is some sort of ploy -- I saw it over and over and over in that person's posts, and there seems to me to be a clear agenda -- to plant that thought in everyone's heads.

Andria

 

[caramel]

Let me try that trick too: Delicious caramel flavoured vape. Delicious vape. Delicious.

 

[TripleD]

IMO, this is just a marketing stunt but why they resort to this kind of marketing when in fact the buyers are adults with high sense of thinking and do not need that kind of childish labelling?

 

[Mitchell.martel]

IMO, this is just a marketing stunt but why they resort to this kind of marketing when in fact the buyers are adults with high sense of thinking and do not need that kind of childish labelling?

It comes down to a a couple basic reasons...first it catches your eye and makes you more likely to buy it than the plane bottle that you don't see within the plethora of other bottles and secondly its banking on you having nostalgic feelings from when you were younger...that's how I had my first fruit loops vape...IMO the labels and flavors don't mean jack .......it's just a reason they are using to demonize us...they would find something else if we changed the labels and made the flavors nasty as hell so It doesn't matter to me

 

[ENAUD]

What about a vendor's website? Should the cartoonish representation of a white rabbit in glasses and a bow tie get the axe to placate those who wish to "govern" us?

I think they are going to go after online sales hard. The recent FDA workshop had a speaker mention that they had underage people able to make purchases from online vendors as part of their save the kiddies speak. I don't have a crystal ball, but I'd bet money that the online market we so enjoy is planned to be gutted as one of their primary targets.

 

[stevegmu]

Age verification software or signature delivery shouldn't be an issue for most vendors. ProVape already uses signature delivery...

 

[beckdg]

It comes down to a a couple basic reasons...first it catches your eye and makes you more likely to buy it than the plane bottle that you don't see within the plethora of other bottles and secondly its banking on you having nostalgic feelings from when you were younger...that's how I had my first fruit loops vape...IMO the labels and flavors don't mean jack ****...it's just a reason they are using to demonize us...they would find something else if we changed the labels and made the flavors nasty as hell so It doesn't matter to me

And for every detail we concede, they'll find another.

With the attitude of some around here, we've already dug half the hole they're going to use to bury us for them.

I don't have an issue if they mandate no sales to minors.

I have an issue giving it to them so they can justify other mandates because we told them it's dangerous by conceding to no sales to minors.

There's a tremendous difference.

And a longstanding history with fda and congress.

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

I think they are going to go after online sales hard. The recent FDA workshop had a speaker mention that they had underage people able to make purchases from online vendors as part of their save the kiddies speak. I don't have a crystal ball, but I'd bet money that the online market we so enjoy is planned to be gutted as one of their primary targets.

Wait til they see the damage that causes as black market takes over the online industry.

But they'll just cherry pick incidents and use them for the next phase of restrictions instead of admitting the onus is on them...

Tapatyped

 

[puddinman]

Here's what I don't get:

Is there any good research pointing to X harm as a result of vaping?

Is nicotine in the concentrations used harmful?

(And when I talk about harm, I mean "more harm than similar substances like caffeine,").

My research points to no to both questions. If there is no harm in vaping, then there shouldn't be any regulations. Who cares what the labeling looks like?

Now, concentrated nicotine is a dangerous substance. But e-juice? A simple ban on sales to minors is sufficient to avoid issues.

Alcohol in the concentrations used by people is far more dangerous than nicotine and also very attractive to kids -the bottles are shiny and pretty and they see adults drink from them. Yet we have pretty tame restrictions on it -no sales to minors. Beer is advertised widely on TV and they even use kid attractive imagery -what kid wouldn't want to run through a real life PacMan game?

It's up to parents to keep their kids away from dangerous stuff. I guarantee you if I had a "Little Mermaid" (my daughter's favorite cartoon growing up) beer there's no way in hell she ever would have had access to it.

IMHO, we cannot allow OUR government to dictate ridiculous rules for something that, in the scale of harm, is akin to coffee!

 

[Lessifer]

Here's what I don't get:

Is there any good research pointing to X harm as a result of vaping?

Is nicotine in the concentrations used harmful?

(And when I talk about harm, I mean "more harm than similar substances like caffeine,").

My research points to no to both questions. If there is no harm in vaping, then there shouldn't be any regulations. Who cares what the labeling looks like?

Now, concentrated nicotine is a dangerous substance. But e-juice? A simple ban on sales to minors is sufficient to avoid issues.

Alcohol in the concentrations used by people is far more dangerous than nicotine and also very attractive to kids -the bottles are shiny and pretty and they see adults drink from them. Yet we have pretty tame restrictions on it -no sales to minors. Beer is advertised widely on TV and they even use kid attractive imagery -what kid wouldn't want to run through a real life PacMan game?

It's up to parents to keep their kids away from dangerous stuff. I guarantee you if I had a "Little Mermaid" (my daughter's favorite cartoon growing up) beer there's no way in hell she ever would have had access to it.

IMHO, we cannot allow OUR government to dictate ridiculous rules for something that, in the scale of harm, is akin to coffee!

I agree with most of your post, just wondering, why the minor sales ban?