Does this seem right to you?

[Jazzman]

We can Challenge Individual Parts of the FDA "Deemed" Rules.

Such as Closed System Cartridges. Or Limits on Nicotine.

But I Don't believe a Legal Challenge that the FDA does not have the Authority to Regulate e-liquids that Contain Nicotine as tobacco Products (after deeming is Approved) is possible.

Like I said Zoid, IANAL, so you may well be right. But I do believe any and all regulations can be challenged in a court of law, and can be overruled or set aside depending on the outcome of the courts decision. Hopefully we will never get to that point... but I'm afraid we will. I think the biggest question is if we will have the backing and the wherewithall to challenge this decision if it takes place. I also think that depending on the timing of the implementation of the deeming regs after they pass (which unfortunately I'm fairly confident of), an injunction will need to be sought before the court case can even be fought.

And to be clear, the only part that will need to be fought is the deeming of vaping ejuice and components as tobacco. Everything else seems to be ancillary to that. That is the core issue that needs to be fought. The rest falls apart without the deeming as tobacco.

 

[zoiDman]

... I think the biggest question is if we will have the backing and the wherewithall to challenge this decision if it takes place. ...

This is kinda the 64,000 Dollar Question?

Would Someone like NJOY support ($$$) a Challenge against Portions of the Final FDA Rules?

And would the Majority of the Current e-liquid Manufactures be willing ($$$) to do the Same?

 

[Jazzman]

This is kinda the 64,000 Dollar Question?

Would Someone like NJOY support ($$$) a Challenge against Portions of the Final FDA Rules?

And would the Majority of the Current e-liquid Manufactures be willing ($$$) to do the Same?

Great question. I know if it fell on me to finance the revolution we would all be back smoking cigs...lol. I was surprised back in 2008 that NJoy stepped up to the plate and fought on our behalf, because we wouldn't even be having this conversation I think if they hadn't. It will be interesting to see how involved all the eliquid manufacturers and shop owners become after the regs pass I guess. And wonder how much better it would have been if they had been more active earlier. It still amazes me when I visit a local vape shop and they consider this "FDA thing" to be no big deal. I mean seriously, most of my local shops just pretend like this doesn't exist. Oh well, I guess I shouldn't really spoil the surprise right? They'll find out soon enough. They should all open a vaping consortium called ostrich vapers with a graphic or their heads in the sand vaping I guess.

 

[YoursTruli]

This is kinda the 64,000 Dollar Question?

Would Someone like NJOY support ($$$) a Challenge against Portions of the Final FDA Rules?

And would the Majority of the Current e-liquid Manufactures be willing ($$$) to do the Same?

So far NJOY has taken a very proactive roll throughout all of this but I would venture to say it would greatly depend on how much they would be impacted by any of the regulations... such as closed systems and no flavors might not hurt them all that much.
With an estimated 15thousand independent vapor shops throughout the US you would have thought we would have seen a much stronger presence/response from the industry then we have already...

 

[Lessifer]

So far NJOY has taken a very proactive roll throughout all of this but I would venture to say it would greatly depend on how much they would be impacted by any of the regulations... such as closed systems and no flavors might not hurt them all that much.
With an estimated 15thousand independent vapor shops throughout the US you would have thought we would have seen a much stronger presence/response from the industry then we have already...

NJoy actual had a paradigm shift about a year ago, they have begun to focus more on flavors, open systems, even coming out with a premium line of liquid from well known e-liquid mixers. I'm not sure if they've kept it up, but that's where they were heading.

 

[YoursTruli]

NJoy actual had a paradigm shift about a year ago, they have begun to focus more on flavors, open systems, even coming out with a premium line of liquid from well known e-liquid mixers. I'm not sure if they've kept it up, but that's where they were heading.

icing on the cake for them really but if FDA took away that icing they will still have their cake.

 

[Lessifer]

True, just saying they do seem to be more in tune with the broader world of vaping, now. They have developed their ego/tank systems, a lower end juice line sold in convenience stores, and the Artist Collection line available only in vape shops. They even hinted at working with some modders for APV hardware. If they're willing to help us fight in the future, they will be one company I will be happy to support.

 

[DC2]

Instead of replying to various posts individually, I'll just do this...

I am almost positive that there are groups that already have plans to mount legal challenges.
And I'm also pretty sure that SFATA is building a war chest for that purpose.

As far as I know there is nobody that intends to challenge a deeming of being a tobacco product.
And I personally do not believe that such a challenge would have ANY chance of succeeding.

The main thing that will be challenged would be excessive burdens that prevent small businesses from competing.
At least that's what I remember hearing.

 

[skoony]

Why come wielding a sledgehammer? Why not knock, be invited in, and then rob the place? Remember what has already been said. When asked why they didn't go after flavors more stringently in the proposed deeming regs, the answer was, "we have to deem it a tobacco product FIRST."

e-cigs are already deemed a tobacco product.
the deeming regs are the first regulations concerning e-cigs
that have already been deemed a tobacco product.
regards
mike

 

[caramel]

Have a nice weekend. Don't let the children ruin it for you.

BTW I propose that public spaces should also have reserved "adults only" areas. Where adults can be adults without exposing cookie labels to the children. Let's have a look at the age pyramids and decide on a proportional, fair size of such spaces.

 

[YoursTruli]

e-cigs are already deemed a tobacco product.
the deeming regs are the first regulations concerning e-cigs
that have already been deemed a tobacco product.
regards
mike

They have not been deemed as tobacco products as of yet

Federal Register | Deeming Tobacco Products To Be Subject to the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, as Amended by the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act; Regulations on the Sale and Distribution of Tobacco Products and Required Warning Statements for Tobacco Products

FDA proposes to extend its tobacco authority to additional tobacco products, including e-cigarettes

Deeming – Extending Authorities to Additional Tobacco Products

 

[caramel]

There are exactly two things that could prevent them from doing so:

- Congress restricts them (to let's say products containing tobacco leaves or significantly similar derivatives such as tobacco leaves paste)

- A succesful lawsuit against them

 

[caramel]

Instead of replying to various posts individually, I'll just do this...

I am almost positive that there are groups that already have plans to mount legal challenges.
And I'm also pretty sure that SFATA is building a war chest for that purpose.

As far as I know there is nobody that intends to challenge a deeming of being a tobacco product.
And I personally do not believe that such a challenge would have ANY chance of succeeding.

The main thing that will be challenged would be excessive burdens that prevent small businesses from competing.
At least that's what I remember hearing.

Well then be prepared to challenge them yearly, since they will keep reintroducing similar bs under a different wording. They have the authority to do so.

 

[zoiDman]

So far NJOY has taken a very proactive roll throughout all of this but I would venture to say it would greatly depend on how much they would be impacted by any of the regulations... such as closed systems and no flavors might not hurt them all that much.

...

This is where I was going by Mentioning NJOY.

NJOY today isn't the Company it was back in 2009/2010. Whereas the Purposed FDA Regulations would completely Decimate small retailers. As well as Many of the Mid-Sized Companies. NJOY would be a Company that could make the Transition to a Fully Regulated market.

So if you are Going to be a Player in a Fully Regulated market, would you want to Fight the Purposed FDA Regulations? Which would enabling other Companies to sell their products along side of you?

Remember: There is a Boat Load of Money Laying on the Floor just waiting for someone to Pick it Up. And just because a Company has fought for something in the Past which was in their Best Interest, as well as Ours, doesn't mean that Today those Same Interest are as closely Aligned.

 

[Rossum]

A Smarter thing to do would be to be Support some of the FDA Rules, Like Age Limits, and Marketing, and CRP. But to Contest some of the Other rules. Like Closed Systems, very Low Nicotine mg/ml limits, Extremely Restrictive Flavor Bans.

This would give the ANTZ in your State something they want. But would also give Vapers something that they want also.

No. I will not give them the ANTZ Anything voluntarily They are the people who agitated to made it Illegal for me to smoke in my own private office in the business that I own, an office that I installed a 600 cfm exhaust system in when we moved there a few years prior. The same people are now agitating to classify vaping as smoking in my state, so it will be illegal for me to vape in my office as well. They get NOTHING for free from me.

 

[Rossum]

And this is Exactly why, I believe, that the FDA will want to write as an Inclusive Rule Set as Possible.

Sure, if something is left out, it can be Added Later. But then much of the Process would have to be Repeated. So would the FDA or the HHS want to do that?

I also believe that Every Month that goes by, the Case for More Restrictive e-Cigarette/e-Liquids Policies gets harder to Justify in the Court of Public Appeal.

So better to Get as much done Now. Then to have to do it Down the Road when there is More Published Studies. And Less Public Resentment towards Adult e-Cigarette use.

With the propaganda war they've been waging over the last year or so in the media, I think it might be the opposite. Moreover, I do not think they can pile on a whole bunch of specific restrictions in the final regs that weren't in the NPRM.

 

[zoiDman]

No. I will not give them the ANTZ Anything voluntarily They are the people who agitated to made it Illegal for me to smoke in my own private office in the business that I own, an office that I installed a 600 cfm exhaust system in when we moved there a few years prior. The same people are now agitating to classify vaping as smoking in my state, so it will be illegal for me to vape in my office as well. They get NOTHING for free from me.

I can Respect your POV Russum. And there is a degree of Valor in Fighting everything at Every step in the Process.

But can we Expect Middle of the Road Senators and their Money Givers to share the Same POV?

 

[caramel]

With the propaganda war they've been waging over the last year or so in the media, I think it might be the opposite. Moreover, I do not think they can pile on a whole bunch of specific restrictions in the final regs that weren't in the NPRM.

They can. "Adressing specific needs identified during public consultations".

 

[zoiDman]

With the propaganda war they've been waging over the last year or so in the media, I think it might be the opposite. Moreover, I do not think they can pile on a whole bunch of specific restrictions in the final regs that weren't in the NPRM.

I think the Key Word in NPRM is "Proposed".

Just because I didn't see Any specifics regarding Nicotine mg/ml Limits or Closed System Cartridges in the Purposed Rules doesn't mean that I don't think that they Can't appear in the Final Rule Set.

Mr. Zeller seemed Very Clear and has stated Many Times that what was Proposed was just a Framework of what is to Come.

 

[Wow1420]

No Problem bluecat.

These 3 Words, "Derived from Tobacco", is kinda the Long and the Short of the "Deeming".

The Nicotine we use Is "Derived from Tobacco".

A person who uses 0mg does Not Use anything that is "Derived from Tobacco".

An 18650 Battery is Not "Derived from Tobacco"

etc...

I'm curious if anyone who's been keeping up with legislation knows this -- All the states that already ban sales to underage persons. Do they include no-nic products in the ban?