dont know who to believe :(

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AndriaD

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Not so many years ago psychiatrists would allow some patients to smoke if it helped with their mood and didn't interfere with medication. The benefits outweighed the risks. That may still be true today.

For all I know some psychiatrists may think the same way about vaping today. I haven't seen any articles about this one way or the other.

Yes, and I wonder if that openness to the benefits of smoking may be related to the MAOIs naturally found in tobacco; I still think the OP should discuss the MAOI situation with his doc, because it's possible that WTA might be of benefit to him, but I do feel that someone already taking meds that control brain chemistry should never add something that might also do something to his brain chemistry; it could nullify the effect of the current medication, or it might increase its effect in dangerous ways, or cause some other problem in some other way entirely -- it really should be discussed seriously with a doctor.

Andria
 

chargingcharlie

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One more thing chargingcharlie I am sorry about the loss in your family. I mean it. It is not easy to believe in something and argue with a total stranger on the net, but we have to consider what we are doing here. I think I am helping the OP, maybe you too, but the OP is complaining about him loving and being happy to witch he is being forced to swallow a damn pill, his words not mine.

Again sorry about your loss, lest not kill someone else in the process, either from your standpoint or mine.

Kind Regards,

I hear what you are saying, and I agree that there is a lot of over medication going on. But we can't just assume the OP is one of those people. If he does have schizophrenia, then he needs to be on meds, and none of us who don't know him should suggest otherwise. That's all I was getting at. Trust me when I say that I don't like having to take my pill every day, but my life is much more bearable wil it. When I am off my meds, I don't go crazy or want to harm myself or others, but I worry about EVERYTHING. It gets so bad that I can't sleep at night and, if my wife is an hour late, I literally start worrying that she got in a car accident and break out into sweats. Nobody should have to live that way. The small dose that I'm on stops that from happening completely, so it's worth it to me.


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johnny madman

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I hear what you are saying, and I agree that there is a lot of over medication going on. But we can't just assume the OP is one of those people. If he does have schizophrenia, then he needs to be on meds, and none of us who don't know him should suggest otherwise. That's all I was getting at. Trust me when I say that I don't like having to take my pill every day, but my life is much more bearable wil it. When I am off my meds, I don't go crazy or want to harm myself or others, but I worry about EVERYTHING. It gets so bad that I can't sleep at night and, if my wife is an hour late, I literally start worrying that she got in a car accident and break out into sweats. Nobody should have to live that way. The small dose that I'm on stops that from happening completely, so it's worth it to me.


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Hug, a big Hug
 

TaraJean1020

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I work in a psychology office, and all of the doctors know that I started vaping instead of smoking and they were all happy that I made the change (not that any of them smoke analogs or had they ever) Some of them even mentioned to their clients that were trying to quit to come talk to me about vaping! I have never had any mental/medical side effects from vaping (I started vaping over 2 years ago), if anything I have been in a better mood since I am not pumping all those chemicals into my body.
 
Correlation does not equal causation. The reason why so many people who commit suicide have Prozac in the medicine cabinet is because they suffer from depression...depression is much more of a cause of suicide than Prozac. My nephew committed suicide last year. He was on Prozac and other anti-depressants as a child and did well while he was on them. Due to all of the negative press that anti-depressants have, he refused to take them in his late teens, and things went downhill from there. He was 23 when he finally decided to end his own life. Anti-depressants can be very effective when prescribed, and taken, properly. But, just like any other drug, they can cause major issues when wrongly prescribed and the prescribing doctor isn't following up with their patient. I've been on citalopram for many years for anxiety, and it has been wonderful for me. My doctor retired two years ago, and her replacement decided that I "needed" to be on Wellbutrin instead. After about a week, I was a miserable mess. I was a grown man, curled up on my couch crying like a child for 3 days, and had no idea why I was so depressed. Thankfully, my wife noticed and told me to cut my dose and to and call my doctor. My doctor was out that day, so the head doctor took my call...he put me back on citalopram, apologized for what happened, and immediately assigned a different doctor to me.


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Thank you so much for posting this. Some of the "advice" here for the young person is just shameful. I understand 100% where you are coming from. My father was manic depressive and was raised by people who hated the "establishment." He was taught to disregard out-of-hand any government agency, any educational institution, and any medical insitution, which naturally includes psychiatry. My baby brother nearly died because my father refused to take him to a doctor when he was sick for more than a week. One our way to school one day, my father rear-ended someone and my other brother hit his head on the windshield. He was bleeding from one of his ears, but my father sped off and dropped us off at school instead of going to the hospital. So you can see he was the real deal about all this "I don't believe in Western medicine" garbage. He self-medicated with alcohol. He wasn't a bad person-- he was sick and was in desperate need of treatment.

When my mom finally applied for a divorce, my father was only allowed to have supervised visits if he agreed to see a doctor, he refused even though not seeing us broke his heart. He was adamantly opposed to any therapy or pharmaceutical "poison." Within the month he blew half his face off in the living room. This was a terrible and lonely way to die, as I imagine any suicide is, and it could have been prevented were it not for his anti-intellectual beliefs.

So I think there is something very wrong with all the magical thinking I've seen so far in this thread. People with a mental illness history hurt themselves, so it's probably caused by their treatment? I hate seeing this kind of thing because this thinking pattern is truly a pattern--it shows up in pro-vape arguments as well, which is embarassing and hurting our collective cause. If you're not reasonable then you will be disregarded and perhaps laughed at.

Frankly, to see the paramedic's post with his "advanced education" was stomach-churning. Many people will read it and take it seriously. It's a joke. There is no "advanced" anything in emergency medical training. It's emergency and very general and basic. You can take it from someone who trained as a civilian as an EMT (5 months) and then trained in the Army as a combat medic (AIT less than 1 year). Any monkey can do it. I saw all kinds of big-headed ...... on the job and I never got used to it. Very little "Western medicine" is actually practiced by medics, compared to the bulk of the medical professions--and when you take this into account, his rejection of medical practices makes a little more sense. He doesn't see what exactly he is rejecting. ER nursing is something that comes closer to "advanced" training, a lil more difficult than general nursing, but it's still not even close to general physician training.

Part of the problem with psych treatment is the musical chairs with meds one must play when starting treatment. People have unreasonable and impossibly high expectations of psych drug regimens. At this juction we have no other choice if we are to treat people and advance our knowledge of the brain. Diagnosis is very difficult, drug treatment is very difficult. For example, say you have a patient with clear symptoms of depression. But which neurotransmitter abnormality is causing or contributing to the problem? Is it low serotonin? A serotonin reuptake inhibitor. Is it low dopamine? A DRI. Low norepinephrine? NRI. Is it a combo of low serotonin and norepinephrine? SNRI. Low dopamine/norepinephrine? DNRI. We know all of these things cause depression symptoms. but we don't typically know exactly what the neurotransmitter levels for each individual patient are, and right now it's impractical to test every patient before prescribing meds.

And what about anxiety? Low GABA is a common cause. But so is low dopamine and low serotonin. Worse, excessive dopamine and serotonin activity can cause symptoms that would be interpreted as anxiety. It could be excessive acetylcholine. Additionally, it could be low potassium or low magnesium, and hundreds of other things--but VERY difficult to pinpoint biochemical causes of symptoms and therefore that much more difficult to treat. Ergo, the musical chairs with medications. So psychiatry gets a bad rap from people who lean more toward intuitive thinking than analytical thinking.
 

AndriaD

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Thank you so much for posting this. Some of the "advice" here for the young person is just shameful. I understand 100% where you are coming from. My father was manic depressive and was raised by people who hated the "establishment." He was taught to disregard out-of-hand any government agency, any educational institution, and any medical insitution, which naturally includes psychiatry. My baby brother nearly died because my father refused to take him to a doctor when he was sick for more than a week. One our way to school one day, my father rear-ended someone and my other brother hit his head on the windshield. He was bleeding from one of his ears, but my father sped off and dropped us off at school instead of going to the hospital. So you can see he was the real deal about all this "I don't believe in Western medicine" garbage. He self-medicated with alcohol. He wasn't a bad person-- he was sick and was in desperate need of treatment.

When my mom finally applied for a divorce, my father was only allowed to have supervised visits if he agreed to see a doctor, he refused even though not seeing us broke his heart. He was adamantly opposed to any therapy or pharmaceutical "poison." Within the month he blew half his face off in the living room. This was a terrible and lonely way to die, as I imagine any suicide is, and it could have been prevented were it not for his anti-intellectual beliefs.

So I think there is something very wrong with all the magical thinking I've seen so far in this thread. People with a mental illness history hurt themselves, so it's probably caused by their treatment? I hate seeing this kind of thing because this thinking pattern is truly a pattern--it shows up in pro-vape arguments as well, which is embarassing and hurting our collective cause. If you're not reasonable then you will be disregarded and perhaps laughed at.

Frankly, to see the paramedic's post with his "advanced education" was stomach-churning. Many people will read it and take it seriously. It's a joke. There is no "advanced" anything in emergency medical training. It's emergency and very general and basic. You can take it from someone who trained as a civilian as an EMT (5 months) and then trained in the Army as a combat medic (AIT less than 1 year). Any monkey can do it. I saw all kinds of big-headed ...... on the job and I never got used to it. Very little "Western medicine" is actually practiced by medics, compared to the bulk of the medical professions--and when you take this into account, his rejection of medical practices makes a little more sense. He doesn't see what exactly he is rejecting. ER nursing is something that comes closer to "advanced" training, a lil more difficult than general nursing, but it's still not even close to general physician training.

Part of the problem with psych treatment is the musical chairs with meds one must play when starting treatment. People have unreasonable and impossibly high expectations of psych drug regimens. At this juction we have no other choice if we are to treat people and advance our knowledge of the brain. Diagnosis is very difficult, drug treatment is very difficult. For example, say you have a patient with clear symptoms of depression. But which neurotransmitter abnormality is causing or contributing to the problem? Is it low serotonin? A serotonin reuptake inhibitor. Is it low dopamine? A DRI. Low norepinephrine? NRI. Is it a combo of low serotonin and norepinephrine? SNRI. Low dopamine/norepinephrine? DNRI. We know all of these things cause depression symptoms. but we don't typically know exactly what the neurotransmitter levels for each individual patient are, and right now it's impractical to test every patient before prescribing meds.

And what about anxiety? Low GABA is a common cause. But so is low dopamine and low serotonin. Worse, excessive dopamine and serotonin activity can cause symptoms that would be interpreted as anxiety. It could be excessive acetylcholine. Additionally, it could be low potassium or low magnesium, and hundreds of other things--but VERY difficult to pinpoint biochemical causes of symptoms and therefore that much more difficult to treat. Ergo, the musical chairs with medications. So psychiatry gets a bad rap from people who lean more toward intuitive thinking than analytical thinking.

Brilliant post, and I was sorry to read that about your dad -- my husband's father died of Hodgkin's Lymphoma due to rejection of medical treatment on religious grounds. :facepalm: It's an entirely survivable disease, with prompt and aggressive treatment, which my ex-husband received for the same disease here in ATL at Emory, and more than 30 yrs later, he's still [miserably!] alive.

All those difficulties and complications -- and potential side effects! -- are why I think that for some problems, medication should be the last resort, when nothing else is working, but the fact remains that some of the modern brain-disorder medications can be a lifesaver, for many people, and should not be rejected out of hand in a purely knee-jerk reaction on some nebulous philosophic grounds.

Andria
 

johnny madman

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Note too many people are part of the establishment point of view. Yea if you really have a mental issue than by all mean take a damn pill if that is the last resort. But to automatically dismiss the OPS statement that he does not know who to believe is not positive for the establishment. In fact this is the shame of the establishment .The OP does not feel happy with the advise given to him, and he can and should get a second opinion.

So If I don't know what I'm talking about and I should not give advise over the Net then what the heck are you folks doing by telling him to take meds? Are some of you asking someone to take mental medication? If I did not ride in on a horse then what the hell are some of you doing going barefoot?
 
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Rat2chat2

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While I believe there needs to be more research about vaping, I am convinced that it is a healthier alternative and one that i am grateful for. Did smoking have any effects with your medications? Mothers are just suppose to worry but sometimes it may be that they don't have all the important information needed. I suppose it just comes down to what you think is best and how your feel. I agree that the experimenting maybe something that would be good for you to look into. I wish you well and please let us know how you are doing. Thank you for posting because it could help others that have the same questions. Good luck to you.
 
BTW my docs have been quite accepting of my vaping. One doc is just fine with it simply because he knows how I am with drugs and how my special interests (I have Asperger's) have driven me to gather oodles of information over the past decade about prescription drugs, OTC supplements (I would consider nicotine a supplement), neurochemistry and misc random biology stuff , and another doc is okay with it because her knowledge of vaping rivals my own... so she knows what's up.

And even if they recommended against it, that doesn't mean it's reasonable to have "it's because vaping is a threat to their income" or "it's because of political shenanigans" as the FIRST CHOICE of conclusions. Come on, people, you have to be more rational than that.
 
Note too many people are part of the establishment point of view. Yea if you really have a mental issue than by all mean take a damn pill if that is the last resort. But to automatically dismiss the OPS statement that he does not know who to believe is not positive for the establishment. In fact this is the shame of the establishment .The OP does not feel happy with the advise given to him, and he can and should get a second opinion.

So If I don't know what I'm talking about and I should not give advise over the Net then what the heck are you folks doing by telling him to take meds? Are some of you asking someone to take mental medication? If I did not ride in on a horse then what the hell are some of you doing going barefoot?

Some of these are valid points in the appropriate contexts. That doesn't mean any coincindental agreement with the establishment s wrong because the establishment has a similar conclusion. Your argument rests on the premise that the establishment is wrong about everything. Therefore, anything "part of the establishment" is wrong. Anything resembling "part of the establishment" is wrong. Your argument also rests on the premise that no one in this thread has any knowledge that can actually help the OP. How did you come to this assumption? I don't pretend to know. People are wrong for "telling" him what to do? Why do you suppose he posted this thread? Everybody told him to do something--told him to listen to the doc or don't listen, or listen to his mom, or only follow his own feelings and not to listen to anyone in the thread. All of that is "telling" him what to do. Your position is not the hallmark of a logical argument. It's the hallmark of a knee-jerk emotional argument.

OP was told something by his doc he didn't want to hear. Therefore the doc is probably wrong? What? Does nobody realize that hearing something you might not like is a GIVEN possibility with treatment? And that's not even considering psych treatment. Docs advise patients to make certain lifestyle alterations every day, it's actually to be expected. Sometimes people don't want to change. Your doctor is not your cheerleader. Your doctor, especially your shrink, is charged with figuring out what is wrong in your life and figuring out what needs to change to improve your situation. If it were easy then we wouldn't have any need for these kinds of docs at all.

OP flat out said he feels a little more depressed, and it happened after he started vaping. Yup, it could be something else. But it could also be the nicotine, especially since nicotine can actually have adverse effects like depression and anxiety. It's worth a shot for him to tone down the nic mg to at least see if he improves. Shocking! But we don't want to hear that here, right? He writes that his exacerbated depression coincided with the vaping, but we overlook it because we don't want to see it.

Incredibly, people start suggesting that he GET OFF HIS MEDS INSTEAD! People throw out offhand comments that denigrate people on meds. People that imply there is something wrong with OP for taking meds. People like him are basically called brain-washed by the establishment. I've been sitting here reading this stuff and wondering if the OP has read them all too. I wonder exactly how old he is. I wonder if he feels hurt, shamed and judged, and I wonder if he's internalizing all of it. I wonder what he's thinking about himself right now.

Why all this spite and ugliness?

Because you are defensive about vaping?
 
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johnny madman

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Duchovnik,

Perhaps when you get rapped up in your own argument and find no defense against a good argument you need to create another one to argue. I too wonder if the OP is reading this, as he " Does not know who to believe " that is what we are discussing right?

Let me flip the table on you one more time, as once was not enough. Let me ask you a basic question.

Are you in defense of the establishment and unable to concede?

Are you unable to listen to the OP?

You are defending a faux construct that does not exist, but serves to give the same medical advise you once frowned, yet you feel the need to change the argument to something else. Please stay on topic!

I will give advise again to the OP, please seek a second opinion you deserve to seek another opinion!
 
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I listened to the OP. But you are asking questions that indicate you did not read my intial reply to him. My knowledge of nicotine and its effects on the brain come from my interests and research in nootropics, so that a little bit counter-establishment. I merely relayed some of the more pertinent information to the OP about what certain mechanisms certain meds have and how nicotine can influence what. A very small and incomplete list of things nicotine does in the brain and what it could mean for a schizophrenic on antipsychotics. I told him those things so he might learn about more about his situation and therefore be more empowered to make his decision as to what to do. The establishment does not operate the way I do.
 
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Katmar

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    A psychiatrist knows a lot more about the effects of the drugs they prescribe and their interactions than a pharmacist. They also evaluate the effect of drugs prescribed by any of the patient's other doctors. Psychiatrists see their patients 20 minutes or more at a time at regular intervals as needed. They evaluate drug effects as part of this consultation and know how to read the answers and signs a patient provides. A pharmacist sees a customer in a drug store for a couple of minutes. The education and training of psychiatrists and pharmacists are on entirely different levels. There is a good reason for this. That's why doctors can prescribe drugs and pharmacists can't.

    I'm sorry, but I disagree. The psychiatrists that I have dealt with do NOT know much about side effects. They know even less about withdrawal from these meds. The 10 to 20 minutes they spend with you are mostly "How you doing?'" and "do we need to change your med?" When asked about side effects or how to wean off drugs, they are clueless. Pharmacists can be very helpful, especially regarding interactions of various drugs, but are NOT so helpful regarding weaning from drugs.
     

    chargingcharlie

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    |snip> But to automatically dismiss the OPS statement that he does not know who to believe is not positive for the establishment. In fact this is the shame of the establishment <snip|

    A common problem schizophrenics have is the inability to know who to believe. I'm not pro establishment anymore than I'm anti establishment. I personally believe that every person needs to decide what is best for their self and that anyone who has no formal medical training should not give medical advice to others. If a person doesn't think their doctor is keeping their best interest in mind with regards to their treatment then, the first thing they should do, is get a second and/or third opinion. Sure, there are bad doctors out there that over medicate, but there are a lot of good doctors out there as well.


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    AndriaD

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    I'm sorry, but I disagree. The psychiatrists that I have dealt with do NOT know much about side effects. They know even less about withdrawal from these meds. The 10 to 20 minutes they spend with you are mostly "How you doing?'" and "do we need to change your med?" When asked about side effects or how to wean off drugs, they are clueless. Pharmacists can be very helpful, especially regarding interactions of various drugs, but are NOT so helpful regarding weaning from drugs.

    I agree with you; all the most docs know about drugs is how to reach for the prescription pad. :facepalm: And sometimes they even do THAT part wrong -- every medical file I've had since I was 9 yrs old has had big red letters on it: NO PENICILLIN. Even my obstetrician's... yet when I came down with a bacterial infection while pregnant, guess what he prescribed? :facepalm: Good thing I could decipher his writing enough to see the -cillin suffix, or I'd have been in a world of hurt, along with my unborn child!

    Andria
     

    Katmar

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    I agree with you; all the most docs know about drugs is how to reach for the prescription pad. :facepalm: And sometimes they even do THAT part wrong -- every medical file I've had since I was 9 yrs old has had big red letters on it: NO PENICILLIN. Even my obstetrician's... yet when I came down with a bacterial infection while pregnant, guess what he prescribed? :facepalm: Good thing I could decipher his writing enough to see the -cillin suffix, or I'd have been in a world of hurt, along with my unborn child!

    Andria

    Had the same experience with morphine. Huge letters, MORPHINE ALLERGY. What did they give me during surgery? You guessed it. Thankful to be alive.
     

    AndriaD

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    Had the same experience with morphine. Huge letters, MORPHINE ALLERGY. What did they give me during surgery? You guessed it. Thankful to be alive.

    Yep. Crap like that is why I absolutely do NOT put doctors up on some pedestal. They may have a lot of schooling, but you know, some of them probably had a C average. :D

    Andria
     
    Yep. Crap like that is why I absolutely do NOT put doctors up on some pedestal. They may have a lot of schooling, but you know, some of them probably had a C average. :D

    Andria

    Spot on.


    I'd say most had a C average.. because that's the average. Even in med school. Just because someone went to med school, or an Ivy League school or whatever kind of education doesn't mean they graduated with honors. True story.

    I'll be generous and say it's likely most had a ~3.0 GPA. But definitely not an A average. We haven't inflated our grades that much yet.

    :D
     
    I was sort of experimented on while I was in the Army. Since I was trained as a medic I went to Fort Sam Houston where most Army medical personnel do some training. There was an incident where I had to get a spinal tap that went a little wrong so whenever I sat or stood up, I would get the worst headache of my life instantly, worse than any migraine I'd ever had, because the hole in the membrane where the needle punctured it (to get CSF) was too large and not healing. So I go to the base's hospital ER, BAMC. When I get to a bed, I'm given a standard IV bag with two little bags of meds. I didn't even ask what they were at the time. But 10 mins after the IV I start losing my mind, it was like a paranoid panic attack where I couldn't hold still or hardly breathe and I started screaming. So I am sedated with ativan. I grab the bags and look at them. They gave me CAFFEINE and BENADRYL at the same time! And not in small doses. I immediately understood why I freaked out on this drug combo. When the boy-doc comes back I hold the bags in his face and ask WHY DID YOU DO THIS knowing my sensitivity to stimulants and my immediate medical history (had spinal tap less than 10 hours before in the same hospital)? He just shrugged at me. He just wanted to see what would happen. I swear that if I had not had that ativan and I could had stood up without puking, I would have attacked him on the spot, I was that livid. It was a ridiculously extreme treatment for someone who has no pain whatsoever immediately upon lying down. It's stupid.

    I ended up needing to be hospitalized for a week following an epidural blood patch, where they took blood from my arm and injected it into the spot where they did the LP. I bet they had a noob do the LP in the first place. I bet I'm lucky I wasn't paralyzed.

    Training hospitals suck.
     
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