Don't let anyone tell you that nicotine is a poison...

[Nirk]

Dosage is important. This is a generic dose response curve that illustrates the differences between the concepts of therapeutic, toxic and lethal doses. This is NOT the curve for nicotine...it's an illustration.

The Y-axis represents the size of the effects. The x-axis represents the dose. Halfway up the curve is the half maximal response. Please note that the X-axis is always logarithmic on these types of curves. So for this illustration there are several orders of magnitude difference between the different effects. (sorry the image is so big).

When i talk about lack of toxicity, I'm thinking the curve furthest to the left...where there are a range of of therapeutic doses. The the lowest doses in the that range will have little or no effect. The higher therapeutic doses can overlap with doses that have toxic effects. The closer the curves are together, the more toxic the agent is and the harder it is to find an effective dose that doesn't have side effects.

Interesting yes but not really relevant to nicotine.

 

[pcrdude]

I apologise if my position is too nuanced for you to grasp.

It really isn't that hard though.

1) All compounds are toxic at a certain dose.

2) That notwithstanding, there are things that through common experience humans divide into 'poisonous' and 'not poisonous'. Mushrooms are a pretty good example. You can kill yourself with any type of mushroom you like. But we still accept that some mushrooms are rightly called 'poisonous' and some are called 'non-poisonous'.

Get it?

Anyone who cares can go back through the thread and see what your position has been. It hasn't been 'nuanced' in the least.

Is warfarin a poison or a drug? You haven't answered that question and it goes to the heart of your supposed 'argument'.

Alas, you an Nirk aren't interested in the truth.....

quite sad actually

 

[pcrdude]

Interesting yes but not really relevant to nicotine.

Why not?

Show your work.

 

[generic mutant]

Is that you grudgingly admitting that you can't disagree with my post?

 

[pcrdude]

Is that you grudgingly admitting that you can't disagree with my post?

Can't disagree????

Really???

You can't agree with yourself!!!!

 

[Baldr]

nicotine is a poison though. it will kill you if you drink it.

Can you show any examples of this happening?

I suspect it's true, but it's misleading, because it doesn't actually happen. Most of the time, nic poisoning happens through the skin, and the result is not death.

 

[Fisheeboy]

Is wikipedia lying about nicotine poisoning?

 

[Nirk]

Is wikipedia lying about nicotine poisoning?

Yes it is not a poison, it is comparable to water or chocolate, its all about dose you see.

 

[pcrdude]

Yes it is not a poison, it is comparable to water or chocolate, its all about dose you see.

Well, not quite but Nirk is starting to get it.

 

[pcrdude]

Is wikipedia lying about nicotine poisoning?

Here is the entire point of the thread:

A substance can produce the harmful effect associated with its toxic properties only if it reaches a susceptible biological system within your body in a sufficient concentration (a high enough dose). The toxic effect of a substance increases as the exposure (or dose) to the susceptible biological system increases. For all chemicals there is a dose response curve, or a range of doses that result in a graded effect between the extremes of no effect and 100% response (toxic effect). All chemical substances will exhibit a toxic effect given a large enough dose. If the dose is low enough even a highly toxic substance will cease to cause a harmful effect. The toxic potency of a chemical is thus ultimately defined by the dose (the amount) of the chemical that will produce a specific response in a specific biological system.

"All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison…." Paracelsus (1493-1541)

The dose makes the poison

 

[Fisheeboy]

I understand where you guys are coming from. And if someone were to accuse me of poisoning myself by vaping the first thing I would likely do is laugh because I know that I'm not. But if I were drinking a bottle of pure and someone said I was poisoning myself I would say 'Yep, sure am' then see what the results would be after my tasty drink. would it kill me? I don't know. It would certainly get me twisted in all sorts of ways I'm sure. So I guess what I'm sayin is that it isn't a poison would used properly. But if my dog got worms I might feed him some copenhagen cause I'm pretty sure it would poison them. And if I fed the mutt five cans...well, he may not be around to get worms again. cause he'd probably hate me and run away from home. Then again maybe it would kill him. He aint a very big dog

 

[Fisheeboy]

Here is the entire point of the thread:

A substance can produce the harmful effect associated with its toxic properties only if it reaches a susceptible biological system within your body in a sufficient concentration (a high enough dose). The toxic effect of a substance increases as the exposure (or dose) to the susceptible biological system increases. For all chemicals there is a dose response curve, or a range of doses that result in a graded effect between the extremes of no effect and 100% response (toxic effect). All chemical substances will exhibit a toxic effect given a large enough dose. If the dose is low enough even a highly toxic substance will cease to cause a harmful effect. The toxic potency of a chemical is thus ultimately defined by the dose (the amount) of the chemical that will produce a specific response in a specific biological system.

"All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison…." Paracelsus (1493-1541)

The dose makes the poison

yep, that's been my take on it from the get go.

 

[Nirk]

Maybe all of us idiots will be able to understand the advanced theory that pcrdude is kindly educating us on if we really concentrate. As it stands though all of us idiots in this thread will still incorrectly refer to nicotine as a poison, the dictionary definition and all related documentation on nicotine, pesticides, poison etc. are clearly wrong. Really it is not a poison at all, because everything is a poison, as quoted by Paracelsus 500 years ago. Not so sure I want this glass of water anymore, it is toxic stuff. I think I will save myself some effort making e-liquids and just drink my nicotine base instead, as it is indeed not poisonous. Thanks for teaching me about it because I really could never have got my head around it without your expert insight into the issue.

 

[pcrdude]

Maybe all of us idiots will be able to understand the advanced theory that pcrdude is kindly educating us on if we really concentrate. As it stands though all of us idiots in this thread will still incorrectly refer to nicotine as a poison, the dictionary definition and all related documentation on nicotine, pesticides, poison etc. are clearly wrong. Really it is not a poison at all, because everything is a poison, as quoted by Paracelsus 500 years ago. Not so sure I want this glass of water anymore, it is toxic stuff. I think I will save myself some effort making e-liquids and just drink my nicotine base instead, as it is indeed not poisonous. Thanks for teaching me about it because I really could never have got my head around it without your expert insight into the issue.

This is the logical fallacy of False Dichotomy....

again...

 

[Nirk]

This is the logical fallacy of False Dichotomy....

again...

Wow I wish I had your vocabulary.

 

[bones1274]

Cheese and rice, it's like watching a bunch of nerds clutch their 20 sided die and argue about dungeons and dragons for hours/days on end. I think this horse is officially dead....

 

[Robino1]

It does seem to be going around and around now. But there were some informative posts in here.

 

[pcrdude]

Well, I learned a lot! I had to do a lot of research to make my points. Also, there may be lurkers who learned how to answer the snide "poison" comment many of us (me included) have heard.

 

[Fisheeboy]

well I went ahead and fed my dog a few cans of snuff. now not only do we have a dead horse but I now have a dead dog. he died from nicotine poisoning. poor lil fella didn't know what hit him. I wish I would have known more about the poisonous affects of nicotine beforehand.

 

[Robino1]

Not funny.