Don't let anyone tell you that nicotine is a poison...

[EddardinWinter]

no Sir, Dose makes the Poison.. not everything is a Poison...

Yes, you could poison your self with water, that does not mean water is a poison.

Certainly 12 or 18 mcg/ml e-liquid is not a poison, either.

It is more precisely described as a drug.



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[happydave]

Yeah, I said that in the opening post of this thread.

but you just said that everything is a poison, thus contradicting yourself.

 

[DC2]

but you just said that everything is a poison, thus contradicting yourself.

Okay, everything is a poison depending on the dose.

 

[happydave]

"Poison" is a board term. in the medical world it would mean, A substance that causes injury, illness, or death, especially by chemical means.
and Nicotine does fit the bill...

 

[generic mutant]

Okay, everything is a poison depending on the dose.

You would presumably concede that things are poisons to different degrees though.

Apple juice and strychnine are both poisonous, at the right dose.

But it's more true to say that strychnine is a poison than apple juice, is it not?

 

[Ryedan]

From: Thefreedictionary.com

"Poison:

Any substance that impairs health or destroys life when ingested, inhaled, or absorbed by the body in relatively small amounts. Some toxicologists suggest that, depending on the dose, all substances are poisons. Many experts state that it is impossible to categorize any chemical as either safe or toxic and that the real concern is the risk or hazard associated with the use of any substance. Clinically all poisons are divided into those that respond to specific treatments or antidotes and those for which there is no specific treatment."

 

[happydave]

From: Thefreedictionary.com

"Poison:

Any substance that impairs health or destroys life when ingested, inhaled, or absorbed by the body in relatively small amounts. Some toxicologists suggest that, depending on the dose, all substances are poisons. Many experts state that it is impossible to categorize any chemical as either safe or toxic and that the real concern is the risk or hazard associated with the use of any substance. Clinically all poisons are divided into those that respond to specific treatments or antidotes and those for which there is no specific treatment."

you forgot to quote this part "Maintaining respiration and circulation is the most important aspect of treatment"..
i find that interesting because nicotine causes vascular constriction in small doses, thus limiting circulation.

 

[jdanderson1449]

All that being said, I am contemplating using nicotine juice to spray my garden with to keep the bunnies away. Either that or I shoot the rabbits and eat them too.


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[CES]

Nicotine can also cause new vascular growth...

Arsenic used to be used for treatment of syphilis. It wasn't great, but was better than anything they had at the time.

Roundup will kill weeds and affect aquatic critters, but when dry is not toxic (poisonous) to dogs (which is why i still have 3 dogs)

The dose makes the poison, but i would submit that the dose also makes the treatment.

 

[happydave]

The dose makes the poison, but i would submit that the dose also makes the treatment.

of course, but that would need to be taken on a case by case basis.
recreational use is a totally different story.

 

[EddardinWinter]

You would presumably concede that things are poisons to different degrees though.

Apple juice and strychnine are both poisonous, at the right dose.

But it's more true to say that strychnine is a poison than apple juice, is it not?

Sure, since apple juice is useful as a tasty drink! It is more precise to describe strychnine as a poison than apple juice.

Nicotine, like apple juice has uses other than as a poison. It's most common use is a recreational drug, but it has many medical uses as well.

Therefore, it is more precise to describe strychnine as a poison than nicotine, yes?



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[generic mutant]

Marathon runners used to take strychnine

But yes, since common usage is undoubtedly a factor, I'd classify nicotine as a recreational drug first and foremost.

Just a drug that is also a very poisonous antiherbivore / insecticide.

I'm aware that it's being used in medical research, I didn't know it was actually prescribed for things - not that that would surprise me particularly.

 

[EddardinWinter]

Marathon runners used to take strychnine

But yes, since common usage is undoubtedly a factor, I'd classify nicotine as a recreational drug first and foremost.

Just a drug that is also a very poisonous antiherbivore / insecticide.

I'm aware that it's being used in medical research, I didn't know it was actually prescribed for things - not that that would surprise me particularly.

My doctor has endorsed my use of it instead of Adderall to treat my ADHD. It is not proscribed, per se, but I am not the only one here on ECF that does so.

There is a user here on ECF who uses it for ulcerative colitis (Myk or crxess, I confuse them) with his doctors endorsement. My friends mother treats her Parkinson's with patches, with remarkable effect.



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[generic mutant]

Yep, I've read about lots of research going on looking for nicotine like chemicals (nicotinoids? Don't know) to enhance memory, and protect against dementia.

As CES pointed out as well, it's got a role in promoting growth of blood vessels. I'm sure things in that family of chemicals could be used in a regenerative capacity after surgery, or something...

Interesting stuff...

 

[jdanderson1449]

I was having a largely intelligent and informative conversation with a fellow locally in regards to mostly flavor of nicotine and upon further research found that nicotine compounds are present in a lot of different things. Most notably any member of the nightshade family. Also the capsicum family which includes mainly peppers. I think that may explain peppery notes from nic juice. I do prefer picking my poison. Usually it's bourbon but I like peppers and potatoes too.


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[CES]

of course, but that would need to be taken on a case by case basis.
recreational use is a totally different story.

Is it though? One could make the argument that recreational use is the point, and that at recreational doses it's not toxic. And recreational doses range anywhere from 3-7 ml per day of 1mg/ml to 36mg/ml or more.

Our bodies have homeostatic mechanisms that keep us within a fairly narrow operating range. We need a given fluid balance, a given nutritional balance, a given electrochemical balance, etc. Thus, things like water or salt (NaCl) or potassium are required in within a range of amounts. Too much or too little is harmful. Activation of nicotinic receptors is required for our operating systems - usually its acetylcholine that activates the receptors, but we can tolerate a bit of nicotine and it can be beneficial.

Toxicity is a useful term, the term 'poisonous' is much less useful. If we talk about toxicity, then we can look at dosages of any compound that result in beneficial effects vs dosages that result in detrimental effects, and still treat the chemical with requisite care. If we call something "poison", then it's about murder mysteries and fear.

 

[generic mutant]

...Toxicity is a useful term, the term 'poisonous' is much less useful. If we talk about toxicity, then we can look at dosages of any compound that result in beneficial effects vs dosages that result in detrimental effects, and still treat the chemical with requisite care. If we call something "poison", then it's about murder mysteries and fear.

True enough when you're talking about clinical / recreational dosing, not so much storing jugs of things in the cupboard.

It's a meaningful category: I don't put caustic, volatile or poisonous things in reach of children, or in hard to identify bottles, or in places where I might mistake them for something else.

In that sense, nicotine containing liquid (particularly, but not exclusively, the high concentration stuff used for DIY) should be considered a poison.

 

[Robino1]

Is it though? One could make the argument that recreational use is the point, and that at recreational doses it's not toxic. And recreational doses range anywhere from 3-7 ml per day of 1mg/ml to 36mg/ml or more.

Our bodies have homeostatic mechanisms that keep us within a fairly narrow operating range. We need a given fluid balance, a given nutritional balance, a given electrochemical balance, etc. Thus, things like water or salt (NaCl) or potassium are required in within a range of amounts. Too much or too little is harmful. Activation of nicotinic receptors is required for our operating systems - usually its acetylcholine that activates the receptors, but we can tolerate a bit of nicotine and it can be beneficial.

Toxicity is a useful term, the term 'poisonous' is much less useful. If we talk about toxicity, then we can look at dosages of any compound that result in beneficial effects vs dosages that result in detrimental effects, and still treat the chemical with requisite care. If we call something "poison", then it's about murder mysteries and fear.

Which, I believe, was DC's reasoning in starting this thread.

 

[happydave]

Is it though? One could make the argument that recreational use is the point, and that at recreational doses it's not toxic. And recreational doses range anywhere from 3-7 ml per day of 1mg/ml to 36mg/ml or more.

less than 1 MG will give most people a bit of a buzz. a threshold doses like .1 or .2 mg can cause vascular constriction.
like i was saying earlier a very good friend of mine was having issues with circulation near his spine. this caused him a lot of pain and limited mobility. his doctor told him to give up nicotine entirely and the effects have been very profound.

so yes, a habitual / recreational dose can be detrimental to ones health.

 

[CES]

Ok, for another interesting example of "the dose makes the poison", Anatoxin-A is also known as "very sudden death factor" also acts on nicotinic receptors (it was the molecule of the month on some website several years ago) . I have no idea what the LD50 is but it is naturally occurring very nasty stuff (avoid nutritional or recreational use of certain forms of blue-green algae) . Even so, people have tried to see if it was useful as a treatment in diseases like Alzheimer's where there is a loss of neurons that release acetylcholine.

Here's a link to the wiki article for those of you who are interested in really poisonous toxic substances:
Anatoxin-a - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia